how close is "too close?" how soon is "too soon?"

[Troy26]

I've been doing some thinking lately and wondered if there's any sort of agreement on how close is "too close?"

what I mean is how close should you let someone (who's behaving agressively) get before you:
1. Draw your firearm
2. Fire your firearm

I could see how drawing it early might prevent a phyiscial confrontation, but I can also see how easily you could get in trouble for "brandishing." Also, I would think the decision to fire your weapon would want to be made to allow for a followup shot if you missed the first time, or the first shot didn't end the threat. I can also see the problem of being labled a trigger happy nut if you shoot too soon.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Check out http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/

Basically, you have to articulate why in a situation you felt in danger of imminent grievous bodily harm.

(who's behaving agressively)

- That's vague, you have to define the threat as above.

Also, drawing and shooting are part and parcel of the same analysis. Faced with a threat (as compared to hearing a noise in the house and retrieveing a gun) - if you draw it is because you face grievous bodily harm. You don't have to shoot the threat but there is no differential where you just draw because you think you don't have to shoot.

As far as distance - there are the knife heuristics of the Tueller drill - but if you saw someone at 50 yards who had a gun out and was saying they are going to shoot you, might you draw then and shoot?

There's no set rule - it's an evaluation - AOJP.

However, no guns out unless it is at any distance a real threat of grievous bodily harm that you cannot reasonably avoid.

[spacemanspiff]

Each situation is as different from the next as snowflakes are different. As is each individual in these situations. What one person would draw down on, another might not.

The rule of thumb has to be what makes you feel your life or health is seriously threatened (depending on the laws of your state, of course). What makes it "justifiable" is whether or not another 'reasonable person' (or most likely, 12 'reasonable people') would agree that you did the right thing.

In other words, there is no easy answer to this question.

[Richiehd]

Remember "I feared for my life"

[Keltyke]

As close as you fear for your life.

Now, the average human can run at 10 mph. That translates into about 15 feet per second. We're supposed to be able to draw and get off a shot in 2 seconds. Let's say we don't practice and can only do it in 3 seconds. If the BG is running all out towards you, and you draw when he's 45 (3 mini-vans) feet away, you will punch him in the belly with the muzzle as you fire.

How close is too close? If he's facing you in a threatening manner and has opportunity, intent, and ability - then draw that gun.

Just something to add:
Draw while retreating. In some states, you MUST retreat, if possible. Take 3-5 quick steps backwards while drawing and aiming. Practice this at the range. It may buy you a valuable second or two.


Drawing is the first resort - pulling the trigger is the last resort.

[44Magnum]

This link may be of assistance to you.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm

[Japle]

That's a good article, but the rules change depending on where you live. A shooting that's justifiable in Florida would get you 20-to-life in New Jersey.

As a 150 lb 62 year old living in Florida, I feel that anyone who's significantly younger and bigger than I am and who threatens me would be in serious danger. If I were a big, young guy, the threat threshold would be higher.

Not that it matters as much as staying alive.

Bottom line: If you feel threatened with death or serious harm, don't worry about what the law says. Your first priority is to survive the fight. You may spend years in court and your life savings dealing with "the system", but you'll be alive.

[govmule84]

Keltyke,

I must disagree with your statement at the end of our post...or at least half of it. While I do think pulling the trigger of your gun is the LAST option, drawing my gun, anyway, is never, ever the first option. We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

Regards,
Liam

[Alleykat]

but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

Hopefully, we're not talking about a "disagreement" in this thread!

[Nnobby45]

Draw too soon, it could be brandishing. Draw to late and you may not survive. Draw just right and you may give Bubba a chance to change his mind and you avoid using deadly force. (yes, I know. In some states just drawing a weapon is deadly force).

I wonder what the chances are of things unfolding in such an orderly fashion, that knowing exactly what to do is real clear.


You can't ask anybody else how close that is. If you're instincts don't help you out, there won't be anybody else (except Bubba) to do it for you.

I once had a highly qualified LE officer tell me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it happens is a reasonable way to handle things where saving your life is concerned. I don't know if the system will see it that way, however.

[Nnobby45]

I must disagree with your statement at the end of our post...or at least half of it. While I do think pulling the trigger of your gun is the LAST option, drawing my gun, anyway, is never, ever the first option. We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

Regards,
Liam

Since Bubba determines when and where you'll be violently attacked, drawing your gun may be the first and only option. Hopefully, being alert will prevent that from happening.

It's interesting that scenario you created is one where you're having a disagreement with someone, arguing, exchanging words, and participating in the escalation of hostilities while armed? Or did I misunderstand?

[revance]

I bet people rarely have an opportunity to draw while the person is "too far away".

If its a random mugging or assault, they likely won't display any aggression until they are right next to you... which is why you shouldn't be self conscious about walking out of your way to leave plenty of distance between you and someone suspicious. No shame in walking to the other side of the road. They are a stranger, who cares if you offend them by passing this kind of judgment. If they go in the same direction in an obvious attempt to still pass closely by you, there is nothing wrong with giving a verbal warning that you don't want them to come any closer to you by saying something like "thats close enough" or "don't come any closer". After that, any movement towards you is an open act of aggression.

I think what is harder than knowing when to draw is to avoid being in a situation where you aren't aware of the aggression until it is too late.

Edit: after rereading my post, I just want to add that what I said about giving a verbal warning is if you have plenty of room between you. If you see someone halfway down the block and decide to cross the street, and they immediately start to cross too while walking towards you, and you turn back and start to go back to the original side (making it obvious you are avoiding passing by them) and they follow... that is kind of the scenario I had in mind.

[BillCA]

In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

Prosecutors will evaluate the threat posed by your attacker by asking if he had the following;

• Means: Did he have the means to carry out his threat to you? If he said he'd kill you from 50 yards away and had a baseball bat, he did not have the means to act.
• Opportunity: Was there the opportunity for the thug to carry out his threat? 50 yards with a gun-yes. Closing to within about 20 ft with the baseball bat-yes.
• Motive: His threats, statements and actions will determine motive. His intent can be to assault, rob, injure or murder you.

Also taken into account is the "disparity of force" issue. This means if you are a 6'4" 25 y/o man facing a 5'7" 140 pound man, you'll have to show immediate, grave danger. A 5'2" 110 pound woman facing a 6'2" 220 lb attacker is obviously at a serious disadvantage. Armed vs. unarmed plays here too.

There's no "set distance" you should worry about. Rather you should evaluate very quickly a checklist that looks something like this...

1. Is the threat credible or just a "bag o' wind"?
2. Is he making any overt move to carry out his threat?
3. Is he more likely to prevail in a physical fight than I am?
4. Am I within striking distance of any weapon(s) he has? (hands included!)
5. Can he close the gap between us before I can draw?

[dairycreek]

In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

This is excellent advice and should be explored for your state. In Oregon I was taught that the criteria to be considered were Means, Intent, and Opportunity - M I O! Does your "attacker" have the Means, the Intent, and the Opportunity to require you to defend yourself? All three have to be present before one can act with deadly force. As simple as they might sound these can be extremely legally tricky. Just pulling out your gun when you feel threatened is likely to get you in trouble.

Inform yourself as to how your state deals with this issue - the sooner the better.

[Keltyke]

We'll exchange harsh words, or go to fisticuffs, but my gun is not the first thing I think of in a disagreement.

The OP wasn't, I think, referring to a "disagreement". He was talking about a life-threatening situation. If I feel afraid for my life, I'm not going to even bother with yelling or fighting, I'll draw immediately.

[heyduke]

Here's an idea...

Learn self defense where one does not need to use a firearm to protect oneself againt another person.

[The Canuck]

Tactical response has a set of requirements.

Ability, Intent and Opportunity. If the threat meets these three criteria it is to be engaged until stopped.

[Nnobby45]

Ability, Intent and Opportunity. If the threat meets these three criteria it is to be engaged until stopped.

Ability, Means, Intent, Opportunity, and actually putting you in Jeapordy are the five criteria in Nevada.

Or: That a reasonable person would have good reason to believe that his/her life was in immediate danger.

Ability, Intent, and Opportunity do not, alone, indicate that the suspect had either the means or that he put you in jeapordy. Not to say that couldn't be the case.

[B.N.Real]

Too close is with ten feet of you.

But that's where most 'disagreements' happen.

If he continues to close on you without stopping,it may be time to pull your handgun.

Just because you pull your handgun DOES NOT mean you have to shoot it,regardless of what soime people like to say.

A criminal faced with a loaded revolver or semi auto drawn by a person suddenly looking confident in their ability to use it,often realizes "Oops,I just XXXXXX up!" and begins to back away or just run his mouth instead of closing on you.

And it is very important that you have a view of what his hands(and everything else that is going on around you and him)are doing while the situation is going on.

The thing to remember here is that if you have an avenue of escape,i.e. if you can leave the area (and call police),you are law bound to do so,if this is not the stopping of an actual LIFE THREATENING crime on someones person.

As distasteful and cowardly as walking away may sound,getting twenty years in jail for shooting someone who is simply being an idiot is just plain stupid.

But if I must walk away,I won't be turning my back to any threat.

[Dresden2001]

You must evaluate the nature of the confrontation and the threat that it poses to you. I have just recovered from Open Heart Surgery and am much less able to defend myself using my bare hands than I was before I had my chest cracked. I would take a dim view of someone getting inside my inner 7 yard line, especially if they were acting suspiciously, or demonstrating hostile intent.

All of my carry pistols have CTC Lasergrips installed. I firmly believe, based on evidence when I was employed in law enforcement, that the application of the red dot on a suspects chest will often deescalate a situation immediately.

That is not to say that you might use a laser sight in an instance where you are not justified in shooting, but I have seen a number of offenders back down when I pointed at them and lit them up with the laser.

If you pull your firearm, you have to be prepared to escalate to killing someone. Regardless of whether you pull the trigger or not, you need to get on the phone to the police anytime you employ your gun as self-protection. Paraphrase these statements to fit your situation, but make sure that you use the appropriate language to describe the encounter.

"I was in fear of my life, I was afraid he intended to rob/rape/assault me and that I would be killed if I did not defend myself. He is Xfeet tall, Xweight, Hair Eyes and Clothing. . and went that way after I prepared to defend myself. The person posed a threat to my personal safety. . . he threatened me. . . he had a club or board in his hands . . . his fists were balled . . . he was tense and angry. . . . he said he would _____________ and I was convinced he would if I had not prepared to defend myself."

If asked by the police if you want to press charges, say yes. Most states have statutes that make menacing or harassment a crime. If you have pulled your gun to protect yourself and the perp is caught, do the next law abiding citizen the perp may run into a favor and get him convicted of threatening you.

So. . .How close is too close before you draw? - it depends on the circumstances but certainly inside that 7 yard threshold, When should you fire? - When you have no other choice but to stop a deadly or potentially deadly attack. . .

[ragwd]

Tueller Drill, I am sure most of you have seen this before, but it impressed me with the need to stay aware and assessing people and situations. Fortunately I have never had to draw mine, but there are times when someone that looks suspicious gets within 21 feet. You can't draw everytime someone does. You may have to defend your self in the process of drawing. Every one and every situation is different so there are no hard rules but the Tueller drill says that if your draw and fire twice takes 1.5 seconds, a attacker can close that 21 feet in 1.5 seconds. wow I have practiced my draw alot but not nearly enough I'm sure. I don't think I can draw and fire inside of 3 seconds (especially with winter carry), so that means I have to see the danger at 42 feet away. So no hard and fast rule for being too close or too soon, I just remember this drill and try to read people.

http://defendyourself101.ca/articles...-tueller-drill

[Nnobby45]

Tueller Drill, I am sure most of you have seen this before, but it impressed me with the need to stay aware and assessing people and situations. Fortunately I have never had to draw mine, but there are times when someone that looks suspicious gets within 21 feet.

Results of the Tueller drill provide useful information for all of us, and especially for cops whose job it is to approach suspects day in and day out. They know to be alert.

The knife you and I should fear most is one that's in our face in a parking garage, shopping center lot, etc., where the Tueller drill may not mean diddly and being very alert may mean everything.

How many of us simply walk to our car, open the door, and get in? That's when you're most vulnerable. I'm not a criminal, but if I was, that's when I'd get you. I'd follow you to, or ambush you at, your car-- coming from nowhere. You'd turn your back to open your door and you'd be mine. Or maybe when you start to climb in.You wouldn't know what hit you.

Only being many times more alert than the average John/Jane Doe would save you. I might have to find another victim.

How do I know what I'd do? Because that's how real criminals do it. Just watch the news.

How close is too close? When the knife is in your face. Cops approach criminals and know to be alert. Criminals approach us, and we'd better be.

[OldMarksman]

Nnobby45's comment is full of truth:

Draw too soon, it could be brandishing. Draw to late and you may not survive. Draw just right and you may give Bubba a chance to change his mind and you avoid using deadly force. (yes, I know. In some states just drawing a weapon is deadly force).

And I really believe that everyone should head all of the following from BillCA:

In the legal sense, each state has its own set of laws dealing with the use of deadly force and what determines justifiable homicide. Learn the content of your state's laws a.s.a.p.

Prosecutors will evaluate the threat posed by your attacker by asking if he had the following;
Means: Did he have the means to carry out his threat to you? If he said he'd kill you from 50 yards away and had a baseball bat, he did not have the means to act.
Opportunity: Was there the opportunity for the thug to carry out his threat? 50 yards with a gun-yes. Closing to within about 20 ft with the baseball bat-yes.
Motive: His threats, statements and actions will determine motive. His intent can be to assault, rob, injure or murder you.

Also taken into account is the "disparity of force" issue. This means if you are a 6'4" 25 y/o man facing a 5'7" 140 pound man, you'll have to show immediate, grave danger. A 5'2" 110 pound woman facing a 6'2" 220 lb attacker is obviously at a serious disadvantage. Armed vs. unarmed plays here too.

There's no "set distance" you should worry about. Rather you should evaluate very quickly a checklist that looks something like this...
Is the threat credible or just a "bag o' wind"?
Is he making any overt move to carry out his threat?
Is he more likely to prevail in a physical fight than I am?
Am I within striking distance of any weapon(s) he has? (hands included!)
Can he close the gap between us before I can draw?

Here's something else that you might find worth reading carefully:

http://www.nacdl.org/public.nsf/01c1...ocument&Click=

The items "Seemingly Excessive Force--the Reaction Gap" and "Distance" are directly germane to the thread, but in my opinion the entire article is worth studying.

I hope you find this useful.

[JTMcC]

In response to heyduke, who recomends:

"learn self defense where one does not need to use a firearm to protect oneself against another person".

Right, my 72 year old widowed Mother, with arthritis, all 4 foot 10 and three quarter inches and 100 lbs of fighting fury, should defend herself in hand to hand combat with the crack head (or more likely in my part of the world a meth head) at the door who is 30 years old, 6'-2", 240 lbs and has been pumping iron in the pen for the last 10 years.
Get a grip man, my Mom will in any self defense situation NEED a firearm. She won't overcome a tough, young, fit, strong criminal using her ninja skills. She will have a very good chance of prevailing by being alert and employing her 12 gage or her pistol.

Some people just amaze me.

JTMcC.

I'll add that my wife, tho 5'-10", young and physically fit, still needs the advantage of her 590 or her 586 when I'm off working if the need arises to defend house and hearth, including the 4 and 7 year old girls we have running around.

[Nisei]

I think it isn't about distance as it is physical fitness and knowing your limits.

Asses the situation, it's all about one-upping your opponent. He has bare fists, you use a pocket knife, he has a knife or club, you use a firearm. Don't worry about letting him get too close before you draw, if you feel the need to draw then do so. If the tango doesn't get the hint, down him. No matter what happens, good or bad, you're going to take smack from non-carry citizens and lawyers anyway... just do what you have to in order to stay alive.