Stuck rounds in the Lee factory crimp die

Citywaterman · August 21, 2009, 02:00 PM

This may be covered in another thread but I couldn’t seem to find it. I'm loading .38 specials and .357 mag rounds with the Lee Classic Turret press. For the most part, everything is working fine. I have been reloading without any problems for awhile. Every so often a round gets stuck in my Lee factory crimp die. I have to back out the die from the turret in order to release the round or it will break free and damage the brass. It looks like the die is getting caught up where the bottom of the lead bullet seats inside the brass casing. You can see the outline of the bullet thru the brass. This has just recently started to happen. I had 5 rounds get stuck in the crimp die out of 50 rounds.

I cast my own bullets. I size and tumble lube all my bullets. All bullets are within specs. Also, I'm not sure if this may be a factor, but I reciently started dropping bullets in water to harden. Has anyone experienced this problem? I'm not sure if it's a set up problem or something else. Also, this is a new die set. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Citywaterman

Kyo · August 21, 2009, 02:04 PM

Are you going to fast on the stroke? It could be the problem. Or the crimp die is adjusted for too much crimp. In my 45's if I put too heavy of a crimp you can see the effect on the case.

hornady · August 21, 2009, 02:19 PM

One other thing you may look at other than over crimp. Would be over flaring the case, or you could be getting lube or lead shavings building up in the die

rwilson452 · August 21, 2009, 02:29 PM

My vote is for a contaminated die. lube or shavings.

SL1 · August 21, 2009, 03:18 PM

You said that the cartridge is hanging-up in the die where the bullet base is located inside the case. I am assuming that you mean it is hanging-up on the carbide insert located in the base of the die, NOT in the tapered part that does the crimiping at the top of the die. And, you did not tell us if it gets hung there on the way in or on the way out of the die. We need to know that in order to help you.

Dropping your cast bullets into water will make them harder, and that might be enough to change the way the carbide ring grabs the case around the bullet. But, if that is what is happening, then you still have a problem with that die, because swaging the bullet with that carbide ring while the bullet is inside the case will make the bullet LOOSER (because the brass springs back about 0.002" after it leaves the ring, but the lead does not spring nearly as much). You want good case tension on the bullet.

So, please provide the specifics I suggested above so we can offer you the right advice.

SL1

Citywaterman · August 21, 2009, 08:29 PM

SL1, I really appreciate you and everyone helping out with this problem.

I believe the hangup is occuring on the carbide insert, not at the top of the die. I can feel a slight tug in the die when the casing is on the way in and it gets stuck completely on the way out. Very difficult to remove.

I took some photos that will show what is happening. When I took these photos, I noticed the 5 casings that gave me trouble are all the same manufacture (CBC brass) I'm beginning to wonder if these cases are the problem? I reloading mostly range brass.

In the photos, The five casings on the right are the one that have this problem. I placed two rounds to the left that are fine (Winchester brass). I also put a couple of the cast bullets in one of the photos for example.

Thank you, Citywaterman

Citywaterman · August 21, 2009, 08:35 PM

For some reason the photos didn't get attached to my post. Hopefully they will this time.

Citywaterman

Farmland · August 21, 2009, 08:41 PM

I took a fast look and it appears to be a problem with over crimping. try backing off the crimp a little.

Sport45 · August 21, 2009, 08:42 PM

Try less crimp. Were those cases longer than the rest?

SL1 · August 22, 2009, 08:59 AM

Citywaterman,

I looked at the inside of some of my Lee factory crimp dies, and see that the carbide ring has a rounded entrance on the bottom of the die, but a sharp edge on the inside. So, I am thinking that is what is grabbing your cases on the way out. The question is why.

I think you are probably bulging the case a little with your crimp. It appears that your bullets were not seated deeply enough to have the case mouth line-up with the crimping groove on the bullets. If so, then you are essentially swaging the bullet some while the crimp is being formed. Also, it appears that you are using too much crimp. Instead of simply turning the edge of the case into the groove until it just meets the surface of the bullet (inside the groove), you are making what is called a "step-down" crimp, where the case mouth straightens out again at a reduced diameter. It appears that the "step" gets down far enough to be over a full-diameter section of the bullet, which will definitely bulge the case below the crimp. With the case bulged a bit and backed by a bullet that is just barely small enough to fit through the carbide ring, it is not much wonder that the sharp edge of the ring starts cutting into the brass and eventually grabs it. It looks like the brass is sort-off buckling into the last lube groove on the base of the bullet and then being cut above that.

So, I have to agree with too much crimp, and also suggest that you adjust your seating depth.

By the way, the "step-down" crimp really is something for jacketed bullets that have a FLAT-BOTTOMED canelure (instead of the usual rounded-bottom ones). Speers makes some bullets designed for that kind of crimp and discusses it in their manual #14.

SL1

Kyo · August 22, 2009, 09:36 AM

i also agree that you should make your seating depth a little deeper so the shoulder of the bullet is inside the case. and yea, what I originally thought, your crimp is way too much. on your Factory Crimp Die, hold the die on the base where the hex is. Then turn the top bolt outwards all the way. Take a few practices like I did to figure out what a good crimp is. A good crimp should not be making those marks on the sides of the shell. So, do like a half a turn each practice until you get the desired amount.

wncchester · August 22, 2009, 09:54 AM

"I believe the hangup is occuring on the carbide insert, not at the top of the die. I can feel a slight tug in the die when the casing is on the way in and it gets stuck completely on the way out. Very difficult to remove."

Okay. The problem is (either or both):
(1) Your bullets are being cast/sized to large.
(2) The stray longer cases are too long, increasing the degree of crimp and causing the cases to bulge just below the mouth. Trim your cases to a (nearly) equal length.

It's typical for "straight" cases sized in carbide dies to show a slight "hour glass" figure because the diameters are almost always overly reduced. You can lessen the effect by not sizing down the case so far, it's rarely necessary to do so anyway.

Dropping hot lead into water does not harden it. The effects of rapid cooling only applies to ferrous metals heated to, or very near, red hot.

snuffy · August 22, 2009, 09:57 AM

Nice, well filled out bullets. And great photography, you can actually see the details.

Now for what I see as your problem(s). 1. Too long brass, or the CBC cases are a bit longer. 2. Too much crimp on those longer cases. 3. Possibly the CBC cases are also thicker. 4. Water quenched bullet is much harder than before you started water quenching. 5. This did not allow the excessive crimp to simply bite into the bullet. 6. Those tumble lube bullets do not have a real crimp groove. The lube rings are not as deep as a real crimp groove, so the crimp bottoms out early. They're made to be crimped over the front driving band.

A bunch of mistakes added up to create a big problem. Seat deeper to crimp over the front driving band, and back off the crimp a little.

Citywaterman · August 22, 2009, 11:21 AM

I really appreciate all the good advice and suggestions. After looking more closely at my crimp, I have to agree. Too much crimp and I need to seat the bullet deeper. After I get everything set, I'll take a few photos. I want to make sure the crimp is correct. I'm learning a lot from you guys and it really helps. Thank you. Citywaterman

**Unclenick** · August 22, 2009, 01:40 PM

Snuffy is onto it. As long as you have some arsenic in your alloy, just as with chilled shot, dropping the metal at near its softening temperature into water will harden it. The nearer the bullet is to its softening temperature, the harder the result. It isn't uncommon for them to vary quite a bit in hardness due to some coming out of their mold cavities after a longer delay than others. I don't like the water-drop-straight-from-the-mold method for that reason. I prefer to heat them in an oven after molding and quench them simultaneously.

If you've done any barrel slugging and made the mistake of trying to use a hard alloy bullet or a hardened bullet instead of pure lead, you will know that hardened bullets have some elasticity. The harder, the springier. So, instead of letting you feel constrictions in a bore during slugging, they just bear hard all the way down the bore, and if you run them through again, they're still tight. They come out bigger than the bore, so they give you an oversize measurement.

What I think is happening is you are getting some bullets harder and more elastic than others. So, when you run them into the Factory crimp die, the mouth radius eases them into a squeezed-down diameter. But, unlike less hard bullets, they spring back out after passing through the die enough that they will hang up on the sharper edge on the inner side the carbide ring upon withdrawal. A regular, non-quenched cast alloy bullet is less elastic, so the ring re-sizes it enough to prevent that from happening. It is then only a problem for your hardest bullets. Having them in thicker-than-average cases won't help, either. +0.000/-0.003" wall thickness over the bullet is the SAAMI tolerance for your chambering.

A tip: Water-hardened bullet alloys get harder for several days to a couple of weeks after casting and quenching. If you size them immediately after casting and water-hardening them, then the sizing doesn't corrupt the surface hardness the way it will if you do it later. Also, because they are harder later on, if you don't size them immediately, then the ones that you waited longer to size will be bigger in diameter than others you might have sized earlier. The smallest bullets with the most hard surface will be bullets quenched and sized early on and allowed to finish hardening after sizing.

Citywaterman · August 22, 2009, 07:48 PM

I made some adjustments. I seated the bullet to OAL of 1.48 (a little deeper). I adjusted the crimp die for a lighter crimp. The two bullets on the right (photo) are seated alittle deeper (not by much) to 1.47. The load data says minimum OAL is 1.42. I can set it deeper. I will continue to experiment. In my earlier photos, I had the OAL at 1.54. So far I'm not experiencing the tight grab on my casings in the crimp die since my adjustments. I included a few photos. Thanks again, Citywaterman

Citywaterman · August 22, 2009, 07:51 PM

Opps, forgot the photos.

Here they are. Citywaterman

floydster · August 22, 2009, 08:13 PM

By jov I believe you've goot tit!

SL1 · August 22, 2009, 08:18 PM

Those look a lot better.

One thing that I noticed is that there seems to be some bullet lube bujild-up around the crimp. You will need to clean that off the inside of your dies once in a while or it will start messing-up the crimp again.

SL1

Kyo · August 22, 2009, 09:42 PM

i personally don't know how much shoulder your bullets need. the shoulder is the part of the bullet sticking out of the shell before going into the nose part. Not sure if it should be flush or not. not my gun so idk. but yea, i can see light marks of crimp on these, which is ok if the casing is all even. if not, lighten the crimp some more. the case should be straight

**Bud Helms** · August 23, 2009, 12:07 AM

Citywaterman, those are some huge pics, but I got them inline for you. They are really easy to see now.

Mtn Biker · August 23, 2009, 11:27 AM

FYI, I have some CBC 9mm range brass that seems to have a thicker case wall and drags through my FCD more than any other brand.
The crimp looks much better in the second batch of pics also.

VL

August 21, 2009, 02:29 PM	#4
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	My vote is for a contaminated die. lube or shavings. __________________ USNRET '61-'81

August 21, 2009, 03:18 PM	#5
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I think you may be getting the wrong answers You said that the cartridge is hanging-up in the die where the bullet base is located inside the case. I am assuming that you mean it is hanging-up on the carbide insert located in the base of the die, NOT in the tapered part that does the crimiping at the top of the die. And, you did not tell us if it gets hung there on the way in or on the way out of the die. We need to know that in order to help you. Dropping your cast bullets into water will make them harder, and that might be enough to change the way the carbide ring grabs the case around the bullet. But, if that is what is happening, then you still have a problem with that die, because swaging the bullet with that carbide ring while the bullet is inside the case will make the bullet LOOSER (because the brass springs back about 0.002" after it leaves the ring, but the lead does not spring nearly as much). You want good case tension on the bullet. So, please provide the specifics I suggested above so we can offer you the right advice. SL1

August 21, 2009, 08:29 PM	#6
Citywaterman Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Posts: 99	More specifics SL1, I really appreciate you and everyone helping out with this problem. I believe the hangup is occuring on the carbide insert, not at the top of the die. I can feel a slight tug in the die when the casing is on the way in and it gets stuck completely on the way out. Very difficult to remove. I took some photos that will show what is happening. When I took these photos, I noticed the 5 casings that gave me trouble are all the same manufacture (CBC brass) I'm beginning to wonder if these cases are the problem? I reloading mostly range brass. In the photos, The five casings on the right are the one that have this problem. I placed two rounds to the left that are fine (Winchester brass). I also put a couple of the cast bullets in one of the photos for example. Thank you, Citywaterman

August 21, 2009, 08:42 PM	#9
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	Try less crimp. Were those cases longer than the rest? __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

August 22, 2009, 09:57 AM	#13
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	Nice, well filled out bullets. And great photography, you can actually see the details. Now for what I see as your problem(s). 1. Too long brass, or the CBC cases are a bit longer. 2. Too much crimp on those longer cases. 3. Possibly the CBC cases are also thicker. 4. Water quenched bullet is much harder than before you started water quenching. 5. This did not allow the excessive crimp to simply bite into the bullet. 6. Those tumble lube bullets do not have a real crimp groove. The lube rings are not as deep as a real crimp groove, so the crimp bottoms out early. They're made to be crimped over the front driving band. A bunch of mistakes added up to create a big problem. Seat deeper to crimp over the front driving band, and back off the crimp a little. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

August 21, 2009, 02:00 PM	#1
Citywaterman Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Posts: 99	Stuck rounds in the Lee factory crimp die This may be covered in another thread but I couldn’t seem to find it. I'm loading .38 specials and .357 mag rounds with the Lee Classic Turret press. For the most part, everything is working fine. I have been reloading without any problems for awhile. Every so often a round gets stuck in my Lee factory crimp die. I have to back out the die from the turret in order to release the round or it will break free and damage the brass. It looks like the die is getting caught up where the bottom of the lead bullet seats inside the brass casing. You can see the outline of the bullet thru the brass. This has just recently started to happen. I had 5 rounds get stuck in the crimp die out of 50 rounds. I cast my own bullets. I size and tumble lube all my bullets. All bullets are within specs. Also, I'm not sure if this may be a factor, but I reciently started dropping bullets in water to harden. Has anyone experienced this problem? I'm not sure if it's a set up problem or something else. Also, this is a new die set. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Citywaterman

August 21, 2009, 02:04 PM	#2
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	Are you going to fast on the stroke? It could be the problem. Or the crimp die is adjusted for too much crimp. In my 45's if I put too heavy of a crimp you can see the effect on the case.

August 21, 2009, 02:19 PM	#3
hornady Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2009 Location: SWPA Posts: 428	One other thing you may look at other than over crimp. Would be over flaring the case, or you could be getting lube or lead shavings building up in the die

August 21, 2009, 08:41 PM	#8
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	I took a fast look and it appears to be a problem with over crimping. try backing off the crimp a little.

August 22, 2009, 08:59 AM	#10
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Citywaterman, I looked at the inside of some of my Lee factory crimp dies, and see that the carbide ring has a rounded entrance on the bottom of the die, but a sharp edge on the inside. So, I am thinking that is what is grabbing your cases on the way out. The question is why. I think you are probably bulging the case a little with your crimp. It appears that your bullets were not seated deeply enough to have the case mouth line-up with the crimping groove on the bullets. If so, then you are essentially swaging the bullet some while the crimp is being formed. Also, it appears that you are using too much crimp. Instead of simply turning the edge of the case into the groove until it just meets the surface of the bullet (inside the groove), you are making what is called a "step-down" crimp, where the case mouth straightens out again at a reduced diameter. It appears that the "step" gets down far enough to be over a full-diameter section of the bullet, which will definitely bulge the case below the crimp. With the case bulged a bit and backed by a bullet that is just barely small enough to fit through the carbide ring, it is not much wonder that the sharp edge of the ring starts cutting into the brass and eventually grabs it. It looks like the brass is sort-off buckling into the last lube groove on the base of the bullet and then being cut above that. So, I have to agree with too much crimp, and also suggest that you adjust your seating depth. By the way, the "step-down" crimp really is something for jacketed bullets that have a FLAT-BOTTOMED canelure (instead of the usual rounded-bottom ones). Speers makes some bullets designed for that kind of crimp and discusses it in their manual #14. SL1

August 22, 2009, 09:36 AM	#11
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i also agree that you should make your seating depth a little deeper so the shoulder of the bullet is inside the case. and yea, what I originally thought, your crimp is way too much. on your Factory Crimp Die, hold the die on the base where the hex is. Then turn the top bolt outwards all the way. Take a few practices like I did to figure out what a good crimp is. A good crimp should not be making those marks on the sides of the shell. So, do like a half a turn each practice until you get the desired amount.

August 22, 2009, 09:54 AM	#12
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"I believe the hangup is occuring on the carbide insert, not at the top of the die. I can feel a slight tug in the die when the casing is on the way in and it gets stuck completely on the way out. Very difficult to remove." Okay. The problem is (either or both): (1) Your bullets are being cast/sized to large. (2) The stray longer cases are too long, increasing the degree of crimp and causing the cases to bulge just below the mouth. Trim your cases to a (nearly) equal length. It's typical for "straight" cases sized in carbide dies to show a slight "hour glass" figure because the diameters are almost always overly reduced. You can lessen the effect by not sizing down the case so far, it's rarely necessary to do so anyway. Dropping hot lead into water does not harden it. The effects of rapid cooling only applies to ferrous metals heated to, or very near, red hot.

August 22, 2009, 11:21 AM	#14
Citywaterman Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Posts: 99	Excellent advice and suggestions I really appreciate all the good advice and suggestions. After looking more closely at my crimp, I have to agree. Too much crimp and I need to seat the bullet deeper. After I get everything set, I'll take a few photos. I want to make sure the crimp is correct. I'm learning a lot from you guys and it really helps. Thank you. Citywaterman

August 22, 2009, 01:40 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Snuffy is onto it. As long as you have some arsenic in your alloy, just as with chilled shot, dropping the metal at near its softening temperature into water will harden it. The nearer the bullet is to its softening temperature, the harder the result. It isn't uncommon for them to vary quite a bit in hardness due to some coming out of their mold cavities after a longer delay than others. I don't like the water-drop-straight-from-the-mold method for that reason. I prefer to heat them in an oven after molding and quench them simultaneously. If you've done any barrel slugging and made the mistake of trying to use a hard alloy bullet or a hardened bullet instead of pure lead, you will know that hardened bullets have some elasticity. The harder, the springier. So, instead of letting you feel constrictions in a bore during slugging, they just bear hard all the way down the bore, and if you run them through again, they're still tight. They come out bigger than the bore, so they give you an oversize measurement. What I think is happening is you are getting some bullets harder and more elastic than others. So, when you run them into the Factory crimp die, the mouth radius eases them into a squeezed-down diameter. But, unlike less hard bullets, they spring back out after passing through the die enough that they will hang up on the sharper edge on the inner side the carbide ring upon withdrawal. A regular, non-quenched cast alloy bullet is less elastic, so the ring re-sizes it enough to prevent that from happening. It is then only a problem for your hardest bullets. Having them in thicker-than-average cases won't help, either. +0.000/-0.003" wall thickness over the bullet is the SAAMI tolerance for your chambering. A tip: Water-hardened bullet alloys get harder for several days to a couple of weeks after casting and quenching. If you size them immediately after casting and water-hardening them, then the sizing doesn't corrupt the surface hardness the way it will if you do it later. Also, because they are harder later on, if you don't size them immediately, then the ones that you waited longer to size will be bigger in diameter than others you might have sized earlier. The smallest bullets with the most hard surface will be bullets quenched and sized early on and allowed to finish hardening after sizing. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; August 22, 2009 at 01:47 PM.

August 22, 2009, 07:48 PM	#16
Citywaterman Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Posts: 99	New photos I made some adjustments. I seated the bullet to OAL of 1.48 (a little deeper). I adjusted the crimp die for a lighter crimp. The two bullets on the right (photo) are seated alittle deeper (not by much) to 1.47. The load data says minimum OAL is 1.42. I can set it deeper. I will continue to experiment. In my earlier photos, I had the OAL at 1.54. So far I'm not experiencing the tight grab on my casings in the crimp die since my adjustments. I included a few photos. Thanks again, Citywaterman

August 22, 2009, 08:13 PM	#18
floydster Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2008 Posts: 472	By jov I believe you've goot tit!

August 22, 2009, 08:18 PM	#19
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Those look a lot better. One thing that I noticed is that there seems to be some bullet lube bujild-up around the crimp. You will need to clean that off the inside of your dies once in a while or it will start messing-up the crimp again. SL1

August 22, 2009, 09:42 PM	#20
Kyo Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Posts: 897	i personally don't know how much shoulder your bullets need. the shoulder is the part of the bullet sticking out of the shell before going into the nose part. Not sure if it should be flush or not. not my gun so idk. but yea, i can see light marks of crimp on these, which is ok if the casing is all even. if not, lighten the crimp some more. the case should be straight

August 23, 2009, 12:07 AM	#21
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Citywaterman, those are some huge pics, but I got them inline for you. They are really easy to see now.

August 23, 2009, 11:27 AM	#22
Mtn Biker Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 122	FYI, I have some CBC 9mm range brass that seems to have a thicker case wall and drags through my FCD more than any other brand. The crimp looks much better in the second batch of pics also. VL