Best shotgun shell for self defense in an apartment. - Page 2

Anticonn · July 22, 2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Count me as another one that goes with birdshot in this instance.

I've done my own tests and from 10 yards or less, I know that bigger birdshot will stop an attacker. May not kill them, but it will stop them.

1 milk jug full of water + 3" of phone book + plywood. #2 birdshot went through all of them from 20 feet. The phone book had a good 4" diameter hole as did the plywood. That's plenty effective.

If the birdshot penetrated all of that, sure it would work well enough for HD in a pinch. But I have to point out that if it's penterating all of that with ease, a little sheetrock isn't going to stop it either. Fact is anything that's going to stop an intruder is capable of passing through the wall.

When it comes to defense I can't (personally) justify this line of reasoning, I live in an apartment with 3.5" 00b in my 12ga. I look at it like this, it's generally inadvisable to try and clear your own home, so you're better off planing in advance and finding a "sentry position," with the best background you can find, to hunker down in until police arrive. In my apartment there's a 10yard hallway that leads to my bedroom door (where the shotgun is, of course). Should I find myself in a defensive situation at home, the hallway is my only concern, I guard that hallway from my bedroom door. And shooting from my bedroom door down the hall meets a brick wall, it's actually pretty ideal.

My point anyway is don't feel like you don't have control of the background, plan in advance, you have no reason to be clearing your home, it's a home DEFENSE gun, not home OFFENSE. Pick a spot and guard it.

ADB · July 22, 2009, 05:32 PM

Anticonn, good advice. Though still since most people don't have such an ideal setup, lower penetration rounds are advised.

And yes, birdshot will go through sheetrock like it's not even there. I tested some out on a spare piece once. It produced a cloud of sheetrock out the other side.

Nnobby45 · July 22, 2009, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Even with poor shot placement, it takes a real tough son of a gun to take a couple pops from a low brass birdshot load and keep coming.

I hope you'll reconsider that statement. In one of my training courses, we were taught to check ourselves for blood after a shooting to see if we'd been shot, since people can be shot with bullets and feel nothing (immediately).

Real tough son of a gun? I think that's someone who's been fatally shot with real bullets or buck who doesn't know he's supposed to be dead.

The way it works is that 00 buck would be the best for stopping a leather clad Bubba who might use your couch for cover. Small bird shot would be the worst. Make your compromise of choice and take your seat, as a crusty 'ol geezer might say.

shortwave · July 22, 2009, 06:48 PM

Agree with the line of thought that anything capable of lethal penetration is capable of going through two layers of sheetrock. I`ve lived in my share of apartments and always used #4 buckshot. Always been able to decorate apt. so I wasn`t worried about penetrating into the neighbors. Bookshelves(makes you seem smart whether you read or not

), entertainment stands and dressers with plywood behind them are just a few ways. Stained T111 works great.

skeezix · July 22, 2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

edit: not human penetration but wall penetration

I think I lost track of the discussion about this point.

jmr40 · July 23, 2009, 06:55 AM

The goal is to stop an attacker. If you make the decision to pull the trigger it should only be because the intruder is posing a greater danger than any collateral dammage you may cause. Use a round that will stop the agression NOW.

When you call 911 the police officer that arrives at your home will not have birdshot in his gun. In fact buckshot is used because it is considered a safer alternative for bystanders. The rounds in almost any handgun will far outpenetate buckshot, yet most people would never hesitate to say a handgun is an option for home defense.

I have never heard of or read about any trained self defense expert suggesting birdshot as a viable alternative except under 2 conditions. #1, it is all you have. #2 you, or others in your home simply cannot master the greater recoil of buckshot loads.

At near contact ranges birdshot will PROBABLY get the job done, but once the SHTF you never know what will happen. You may find you are forced to take a shot at much greater range than you had planned on. During winter months intruders may be wearing heavier thicker clothes that will at least slow the shot down enough to limit penetration.

zwhit · July 23, 2009, 08:22 AM

I have a cousin who was accidently shot by #7 1/2 birdshot. He was shot from about 8-10 feet and the wad hit him in the bicep right above the elbow.

The shot stayed together tight enough to take a big chunk of muscle out of his elbow, so it obviously penetrated. So birdshot can do severe damage at close range. Most likely would have been completely different if the shot were in self defense and at center mass. The wad would have performed completely different.

The only way to really know how shotgun loads will perform is to take your shotgun out and experiment with different loads at different distances on different objects.

neon · July 23, 2009, 11:23 AM

Non lethal bean bags would be the safest in a small
area such as an apartment

Ok maybe birdshot.

If I was in the country I would have nothing else but,
00 buck or slugs.

GeauxTide · July 23, 2009, 11:34 AM

Across the room, 1 1/8th ounces at 1275fps is devastating without the worry of shooting through several rooms.

skeezix · July 23, 2009, 11:36 AM

Use a broadsword!

Old Grump · July 23, 2009, 11:40 AM

Longest distance I am likely to be shooting at my house is 24', at that range in my 20 gauge #4 shot, (the same as I use for turkey), is barely 1 1/2". It will go through a 2x4 at 10' which is a more likely shooting distance than 24'. I don't expect to have to shoot twice but if I do they will be carrying the booger man out, he won't be walking. Survival is entirely up to God after that.

Eskimo · July 23, 2009, 11:50 AM

Most apartments have VERY thick walls and lots of soundproofing.. just throwing that out there.

hogdogs · July 23, 2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

without the worry of shooting through several rooms.

That is a very irresponsible thought. There are no guarantees. Have checked the thickness of the drywall? 2 layers of half inch or is it the preferred 5/8ths? Also if it will penetrate into one room what is the difference? And yes it will penetrate 2 walls with the force capable of doing great bodily harm.
Since there isn't a safe round that eliminates the risk of over penetration related injury or death than why use a round not intended for use on humans?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n24381753/
Rodney King, whose 1991 beating by Los Angeles police led to deadly rioting the next year, was recently shot on a street corner, but his wounds were not believed to be life-threatening, police said.

[ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]

King, 42, was hit in the face, arms, back and torso by birdshot fired from a shotgun. He was shot "possibly two or three times from a distance," then he bicycled about 1 1/2 miles back to his home in neighboring Rialto and called local police, Rialto police Sgt. Craig Crispin said.

King was taken to Arrowhead Regional Medical Center in Colton. His condition was not immediately known.

"They are non-life-threatening wounds," San Bernardino police Lt. Scott Paterson said.

No arrests were made and details were sketchy.

There was "speculation" that the shooting may have involved some kind of domestic dispute, but "we're not sure about that yet," Paterson said.

King was videotaped being beaten by White Los Angeles police officers after he was stopped for speeding in 1991 (JET, March 25, 1991). King sued the city over the beating and obtained a $3.8 million settlement.
COPYRIGHT 2007 Johnson Publishing Co.
COPYRIGHT 2008 Gale, Cengage Learning
I realize the shots may have been "from a distance" but the guy was able to ride home to call police with birdshot to the face as well as the rest of the spots...
Brent

squeak003 · July 23, 2009, 08:57 PM

you should also check into your lease about owning and using guns for self protection.......some have a 0 tolerance to guns in their buildings written in somewhere......

Anticonn · July 23, 2009, 09:10 PM

Quote:

you should also check into your lease about owning and using guns for self protection.......some have a 0 tolerance to guns in their buildings written in somewhere......

I actually have no idea if there's any clause about firearms in my lease or not, but I do know that they won't know anything about them until I have to use them. At which point I'll be moving out anyway, last thing I'd want is some gangbangers buddies to come for revenge, so I'd be packing my crap within 24 hours.

Ruger4570 · July 23, 2009, 10:59 PM

This is one of those "unwinable" arguments. Buckshot vs Birdshot. I live in an apartment too. I have neighbors above me and on both sides of me. I know I have the RIGHT to protect myself, but I think my neighbors have the RIGHT NOT to have my defensive choice in of projectiles going through THEIR walls, wife, kids, pets, dishes, furniture or anything else.
Just about every HD situation I have ever heard about is at somewhere from a foot or two to across the room. Most apartments aren't set up with "huge" rooms to shoot across, even the hallways are generally not very long.
I use BIRDSHOT in my Berreta 390, yep a semi auto, I know, I am supposed to have a pump to insure the gun will function.
My loads areRemington Premier Copper #4 shot. The payload is 1 3/4 ounces and travelling at 1300 fps. That is about the weight of 2 deer slugs and at about the same speed. The impact inertia is off the chart compared to most any other shotshell load.
Having patterened many of these loads, I will tell you, that at across the room distance there is almost NO SPREAD.
I have experimented some shooting at various things, water bottles, sheets of plywood and of course drywall.
A shot to center of mass of a bad guy at room distances is going to open his chest up to where they can do open heart surgery without a scalpel to open.
A hit to the face will most likely remove all features to where his mother wouldn't know him.
I have always agreed, 00 buckshot is the "benchmark" for defensive loads, BUT in many cases my Turkey load at the across the room distance will do as well.
If i lived alone out in the country, yep 00buck would be my choice. Since I don't I feel VERY confident my Turkey loads will take care of my problem, that is, if it ever comes up. Course, in 65 years now, it hasn't come up. Hopefully never.

MLeake · July 23, 2009, 11:08 PM

... it isn't necessarily appropriate to say, "For home defense, look what the military uses."

Generally speaking, from a military perspective, we don't worry about overpenetration. We usually select with barrier penetration in mind - vehicles, light body armor, etc.

While we may worry about trying to limit explosive ordnance to the minimum necessary to achieve an objective, I've never heard anybody from operators to acquisitions discuss what rounds to acquire to achieve only the minimum required penetration in an apartment building.

guntotin_fool · July 23, 2009, 11:49 PM

Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range?

I have, more than I would like, believe me, and at the ranges you are talking about in an apartment (unless you are talking NYC 6000 square foot TV land apartment) bird shot will do all you want it to do.

One victim was shot by his own gun, he had laid it on the boat rail and climbed out, the dog or the action of him pulling the boat up, caused the gun to discharge. he was about 6 foot from the muzzle, HE was DRT. He had a clean hole thru his chest about 2 inches in diameter, and he was wearing heavy winter clothing as well as waders.

I witnessed another recovery where a ND killed a hunter at about 15 feet from recounts of the others. One hunter was tracking ducks coming in low, when another stood up and stepped into his line of fire. again, DRT< complete thru and thru penetration, and the overly eager hunter who did not listen to the rules was dead instantly.

Now go measure how far it would be from your muzzle to the furthest point of contact with a BG in your apartment, I am going to guess that its not much more than 5 or 7 yards, quite probably less, and think about my two examples of REAL shootings, not extrapolations or inventive thinking but real world lead vs body events. # 4 or # 6 in an apartment is going to do the job very well.

556A2 · July 24, 2009, 12:55 AM

Buckshot > Birdshot

Old Grump · July 24, 2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range?

1971, White Sands Missile range, friend of mine got a face full of 7 1/2 shot when our resident idiot and self proclaimed gun expert put his shotgun in the rack of the pickup. He didn't bother unloading it after lecturing everybody else that they should do so. When he released the gun and withdrew his finger from the trigger guard he fired the gun. It went through the metal body of the cab and into the side of my friends head. He was about 4' from the truck when he got hit, some of the shot was imbedded in his skull and probably still is, Doctor said he is lucky to be alive. A lot of the shot is still in his face and his eye is gone. He was a good man, just married, intended to make the military a career but instead got discharged with a medical.

Kmar40 · July 24, 2009, 02:53 PM

What the bleep is turkey shot? That isn't a size of shot, that's a marketing term. Most times I see "turkey" shot, it's #4 birdshot. The marketing term doesn't make it penetrate it anymore.

guntotin_fool · July 24, 2009, 04:27 PM

some turkey loads are BB and no 2 shot. some are duplex loads, either way. its a big load of bird shot, but its not a specific size, granted.

Re the shotgun in the truck, that hit the victim after going thru two pieces of shaped 22 guage steel or more. It still nearly killed him, I am willing to bet a lot of the shot was deformed and deflected by the the door post. think about that same wound without the two layers of steel?

Housezealot · July 24, 2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

it could penetrate the walls of course but beyond the wall, the lethality will deminish, (don't miss).

that's why I use a giant cartoon handgun like the one in who framed roger rabbit? I like sentient ammo that can pick it's target!

jmr40 · July 24, 2009, 06:16 PM

I think turkey "loads" instead of "shot" would be more accurtate. Most Turkey loads are either 4,5 or 6 and while the shot is the same size they are often plated to make them harder to give tighter patterns and petter penetration.. They use more expensive shot cups to enhance tighter groups and they usually squeeze a few more pellets into each shell or load them to higher velocity than standard loads. If buckshot were not available, turkey laods would be my 2nd choice.

Logjam · July 25, 2009, 12:12 PM

Small birdshot is the ticket in a shotgun for home defense. The wounds caused at close range with birdshot are grisly. At say, 15 feet a load of birdshot will nearly tear a man in two.

00 buck and others like that will carry through the walls and maybe hurt those whom you do not want to hurt.

Concerning loading latter rounds with slugs, etc.. It is a mistake. Remember as soon as you crank off a round at an intruder you have just screwed the pooch. Even if the guy is a pure wacko with a knife clamped in his teeth and needs kill'n his family is going to sue the pants off of you. You have a chance if you shoot him at close range while he's coming at you. If, however; you shoot him in the back as he's running away, you will likely lose everything you have ever earned or will earn, and you might end up in a not so nice room with bars for windows and lousy neighbors.

Only shoot if the perp is a real and present danger to your, or your family's health. Even then the aftermath of the event may not be all that nice.

Remember if the guy is going away, LET HIM GO! Also just cranking the round into the chamber will likely be enough to start him heading toward the door.

If, on the other hand; he keeps coming at you, I'm with you. I'm going to shoot to kill. I'll worry about cleaning up the blood stains later.

BTW: when you use a gun in your defense you have just used "deadly force". That carries some pretty stringent penalties. It doesn't really make much difference to you whether or not you actually kill the bad guy, so my cop friend tells me, "Shoot for center mass; don't mess with the knee caps."

View Poll Results: what shotgun shell would you use if you lived in an apartment?
00 Buck	56	35.90%
#4 Buck	49	31.41%
Turkey Shot	14	8.97%
#4 bird shot	37	23.72%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

July 22, 2009, 06:48 PM	#29
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Agree with the line of thought that anything capable of lethal penetration is capable of going through two layers of sheetrock. I`ve lived in my share of apartments and always used #4 buckshot. Always been able to decorate apt. so I wasn`t worried about penetrating into the neighbors. Bookshelves(makes you seem smart whether you read or not), entertainment stands and dressers with plywood behind them are just a few ways. Stained T111 works great.

July 23, 2009, 11:34 AM	#34
GeauxTide Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2009 Location: Helena, AL Posts: 4,424	7.5 or 8 Shot Dove Loads Across the room, 1 1/8th ounces at 1275fps is devastating without the worry of shooting through several rooms.

July 23, 2009, 11:40 AM	#36
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Longest distance I am likely to be shooting at my house is 24', at that range in my 20 gauge #4 shot, (the same as I use for turkey), is barely 1 1/2". It will go through a 2x4 at 10' which is a more likely shooting distance than 24'. I don't expect to have to shoot twice but if I do they will be carrying the booger man out, he won't be walking. Survival is entirely up to God after that. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

July 23, 2009, 08:57 PM	#39
squeak003 Member Join Date: August 20, 2008 Location: michigan Posts: 98	you should also check into your lease about owning and using guns for self protection.......some have a 0 tolerance to guns in their buildings written in somewhere...... __________________ Mosin Nagant M91, Mosberg 500 12g, ruger 10/22 with a few mods, saiga 20 with a red dot (soon to be converted) will be looking to add to my collection soon (most likely a sig p232)

July 22, 2009, 05:32 PM	#27
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	Anticonn, good advice. Though still since most people don't have such an ideal setup, lower penetration rounds are advised. And yes, birdshot will go through sheetrock like it's not even there. I tested some out on a spare piece once. It produced a cloud of sheetrock out the other side.

July 23, 2009, 06:55 AM	#31
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	The goal is to stop an attacker. If you make the decision to pull the trigger it should only be because the intruder is posing a greater danger than any collateral dammage you may cause. Use a round that will stop the agression NOW. When you call 911 the police officer that arrives at your home will not have birdshot in his gun. In fact buckshot is used because it is considered a safer alternative for bystanders. The rounds in almost any handgun will far outpenetate buckshot, yet most people would never hesitate to say a handgun is an option for home defense. I have never heard of or read about any trained self defense expert suggesting birdshot as a viable alternative except under 2 conditions. #1, it is all you have. #2 you, or others in your home simply cannot master the greater recoil of buckshot loads. At near contact ranges birdshot will PROBABLY get the job done, but once the SHTF you never know what will happen. You may find you are forced to take a shot at much greater range than you had planned on. During winter months intruders may be wearing heavier thicker clothes that will at least slow the shot down enough to limit penetration.

July 23, 2009, 08:22 AM	#32
zwhit Member Join Date: February 11, 2009 Posts: 46	I have a cousin who was accidently shot by #7 1/2 birdshot. He was shot from about 8-10 feet and the wad hit him in the bicep right above the elbow. The shot stayed together tight enough to take a big chunk of muscle out of his elbow, so it obviously penetrated. So birdshot can do severe damage at close range. Most likely would have been completely different if the shot were in self defense and at center mass. The wad would have performed completely different. The only way to really know how shotgun loads will perform is to take your shotgun out and experiment with different loads at different distances on different objects.

July 23, 2009, 11:23 AM	#33
neon Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2009 Posts: 196	Non lethal bean bags would be the safest in a small area such as an apartment Ok maybe birdshot. If I was in the country I would have nothing else but, 00 buck or slugs.

July 23, 2009, 11:36 AM	#35
skeezix Member Join Date: February 22, 2009 Location: Newark, Ohio Posts: 61	Use a broadsword!

July 23, 2009, 11:50 AM	#37
Eskimo Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2008 Posts: 173	Most apartments have VERY thick walls and lots of soundproofing.. just throwing that out there.

July 23, 2009, 10:59 PM	#41
Ruger4570 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2005 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 2,136	This is one of those "unwinable" arguments. Buckshot vs Birdshot. I live in an apartment too. I have neighbors above me and on both sides of me. I know I have the RIGHT to protect myself, but I think my neighbors have the RIGHT NOT to have my defensive choice in of projectiles going through THEIR walls, wife, kids, pets, dishes, furniture or anything else. Just about every HD situation I have ever heard about is at somewhere from a foot or two to across the room. Most apartments aren't set up with "huge" rooms to shoot across, even the hallways are generally not very long. I use BIRDSHOT in my Berreta 390, yep a semi auto, I know, I am supposed to have a pump to insure the gun will function. My loads areRemington Premier Copper #4 shot. The payload is 1 3/4 ounces and travelling at 1300 fps. That is about the weight of 2 deer slugs and at about the same speed. The impact inertia is off the chart compared to most any other shotshell load. Having patterened many of these loads, I will tell you, that at across the room distance there is almost NO SPREAD. I have experimented some shooting at various things, water bottles, sheets of plywood and of course drywall. A shot to center of mass of a bad guy at room distances is going to open his chest up to where they can do open heart surgery without a scalpel to open. A hit to the face will most likely remove all features to where his mother wouldn't know him. I have always agreed, 00 buckshot is the "benchmark" for defensive loads, BUT in many cases my Turkey load at the across the room distance will do as well. If i lived alone out in the country, yep 00buck would be my choice. Since I don't I feel VERY confident my Turkey loads will take care of my problem, that is, if it ever comes up. Course, in 65 years now, it hasn't come up. Hopefully never.

July 23, 2009, 11:08 PM	#42
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Without meaning disrespect to GSUEagle... ... it isn't necessarily appropriate to say, "For home defense, look what the military uses." Generally speaking, from a military perspective, we don't worry about overpenetration. We usually select with barrier penetration in mind - vehicles, light body armor, etc. While we may worry about trying to limit explosive ordnance to the minimum necessary to achieve an objective, I've never heard anybody from operators to acquisitions discuss what rounds to acquire to achieve only the minimum required penetration in an apartment building.

July 23, 2009, 11:49 PM	#43
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	Ok, who here has SEEN first hand the effects of bird shot on a human at close range? I have, more than I would like, believe me, and at the ranges you are talking about in an apartment (unless you are talking NYC 6000 square foot TV land apartment) bird shot will do all you want it to do. One victim was shot by his own gun, he had laid it on the boat rail and climbed out, the dog or the action of him pulling the boat up, caused the gun to discharge. he was about 6 foot from the muzzle, HE was DRT. He had a clean hole thru his chest about 2 inches in diameter, and he was wearing heavy winter clothing as well as waders. I witnessed another recovery where a ND killed a hunter at about 15 feet from recounts of the others. One hunter was tracking ducks coming in low, when another stood up and stepped into his line of fire. again, DRT< complete thru and thru penetration, and the overly eager hunter who did not listen to the rules was dead instantly. Now go measure how far it would be from your muzzle to the furthest point of contact with a BG in your apartment, I am going to guess that its not much more than 5 or 7 yards, quite probably less, and think about my two examples of REAL shootings, not extrapolations or inventive thinking but real world lead vs body events. # 4 or # 6 in an apartment is going to do the job very well.

July 24, 2009, 12:55 AM	#44
556A2 Member Join Date: February 17, 2008 Location: Asheboro, NC Posts: 57	Buckshot > Birdshot

July 24, 2009, 02:53 PM	#46
Kmar40 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 668	What the bleep is turkey shot? That isn't a size of shot, that's a marketing term. Most times I see "turkey" shot, it's #4 birdshot. The marketing term doesn't make it penetrate it anymore.

July 24, 2009, 04:27 PM	#47
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	some turkey loads are BB and no 2 shot. some are duplex loads, either way. its a big load of bird shot, but its not a specific size, granted. Re the shotgun in the truck, that hit the victim after going thru two pieces of shaped 22 guage steel or more. It still nearly killed him, I am willing to bet a lot of the shot was deformed and deflected by the the door post. think about that same wound without the two layers of steel?

July 24, 2009, 06:16 PM	#49
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	I think turkey "loads" instead of "shot" would be more accurtate. Most Turkey loads are either 4,5 or 6 and while the shot is the same size they are often plated to make them harder to give tighter patterns and petter penetration.. They use more expensive shot cups to enhance tighter groups and they usually squeeze a few more pellets into each shell or load them to higher velocity than standard loads. If buckshot were not available, turkey laods would be my 2nd choice.

July 25, 2009, 12:12 PM	#50
Logjam Member Join Date: July 23, 2009 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 38	Small birdshot is the ticket in a shotgun for home defense. The wounds caused at close range with birdshot are grisly. At say, 15 feet a load of birdshot will nearly tear a man in two. 00 buck and others like that will carry through the walls and maybe hurt those whom you do not want to hurt. Concerning loading latter rounds with slugs, etc.. It is a mistake. Remember as soon as you crank off a round at an intruder you have just screwed the pooch. Even if the guy is a pure wacko with a knife clamped in his teeth and needs kill'n his family is going to sue the pants off of you. You have a chance if you shoot him at close range while he's coming at you. If, however; you shoot him in the back as he's running away, you will likely lose everything you have ever earned or will earn, and you might end up in a not so nice room with bars for windows and lousy neighbors. Only shoot if the perp is a real and present danger to your, or your family's health. Even then the aftermath of the event may not be all that nice. Remember if the guy is going away, LET HIM GO! Also just cranking the round into the chamber will likely be enough to start him heading toward the door. If, on the other hand; he keeps coming at you, I'm with you. I'm going to shoot to kill. I'll worry about cleaning up the blood stains later. BTW: when you use a gun in your defense you have just used "deadly force". That carries some pretty stringent penalties. It doesn't really make much difference to you whether or not you actually kill the bad guy, so my cop friend tells me, "Shoot for center mass; don't mess with the knee caps."