small primer in 45acp

edg19 · November 5, 2006, 09:51 PM

having functioning trouble using small win primer in a kimber super match
fail to eject, stove piping. was using large primers no trouble. using titegroup 3.6 gr 200 gr berry swc with a 13lb recoil spring should there be this type of problem using small primers and this loading or do I have to look at some other factors. thanks edg19

**Mike Irwin** · November 5, 2006, 10:04 PM

Huh?

Where are you finding .45 ACP brass that uses small pistol primers?

The last batch I saw that used small pistol primers was made at Frankford arsenal in 1917...

edg19 · November 5, 2006, 10:09 PM

Mike I'm using once fired win nt edg19

JoeHatley · November 6, 2006, 11:16 AM

I've releaded a few boxes of the "Non-Toxic" brass with the small primer pocket. They seemed to shoot okay, but I've decieded not to mess with them, and leave them at the range.

I don't think the primer size could be causing your fuctioning problems. It's more likely the brass. Maybe it's a bit longer/shorter than the brass you have your dies set for.

Joe

**Unclenick** · November 6, 2006, 12:22 PM

Edg19,

The symptoms you describe, taken in combination, are related to lower-than-normal pressure. Most light target loads are right on the edge of cycling the gun. Often you will feel a sudden drop in perceived recoil when your target load gets just below a certain threshold. The gun feels mushier in recoil. This is because you have dropped just below the recoil impluse necessary to push the slide fully into counterbattery where it maks contact with the frame, instead, coming to a stop under recoil spring decelleration alone. It is very comfortable to shoot, but means small changes like drop in ambient temperature or slight relaxing of your grip can cause failure to cylce completely. In this case, apparently, reduction of the primer charge contribution to pressure is enough to tip the balance. You could try going to magnum primers to make up the difference?

Check the firing pin indentations on the NT cases. A lot of tight 1911's strike a bit south of center, which might cause ignition consistency problems with a smaller diameter primer. Also, try a target load with a slightly slower powder, like 4 grains of Bullseye. The longer burn time may increase your perceived recoil slightly, but sustain recoil pressure on the slide a bit better. Otherwise, if you are married to the Tightgroup, push the load up to 3.8 grains and see if that doesn't get you out of the marginal zone with the standard small primers?

Nick

**Mike Irwin** · November 6, 2006, 01:14 PM

Oh, geez, yes, I keep forgetting that that stuff is around.

My bad!

edg19 · November 6, 2006, 01:48 PM

thanks unclenick didn't realize there might be a significant change do to primer change

amamnn · November 6, 2006, 01:53 PM

Federal's American Eagle brand .45 acp at one time came with a small primer. I'm not sure if they still do as I was given a box of the once fired brass by a friend, and of course I never buy factory ammo. I loaded 50 just to see how they worked my regular loading and had no trouble. I threw them out later just because I did not want to have to keep track of which brass took large and which took small primers.

Although I would think that you'd see problems over a period of time even usiing large primers, I suppose if your load is right on the edge of being too light to cycle the pistol properly, it is possible that the reduction in primer ignition has affected the functionality of the round. After all, there is a reason most makers of ammo for the .45 acp use a large primer.

tINY · November 6, 2006, 11:55 PM

The 454 I have uses small RIFLE primers....

Small pistol primers are a bit on the whimpy side for a fat, short case like 45ACP.

-tINY

Jim Watson · November 7, 2006, 08:32 AM

Use of regular small pistol primers in NT brass probably cost you about 35 fps from an already light load versus ACP brass with large pistol primers. You can increase the powder charge or load with hotter primers, either small pistol Magnum or small rifle standard; to get back to normal function.

November 5, 2006, 09:51 PM	#1
edg19 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2006 Location: chicago suburb Posts: 4	small primer in 45acp having functioning trouble using small win primer in a kimber super match fail to eject, stove piping. was using large primers no trouble. using titegroup 3.6 gr 200 gr berry swc with a 13lb recoil spring should there be this type of problem using small primers and this loading or do I have to look at some other factors. thanks edg19

November 5, 2006, 10:04 PM	#2
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Huh? Where are you finding .45 ACP brass that uses small pistol primers? The last batch I saw that used small pistol primers was made at Frankford arsenal in 1917... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 5, 2006, 10:09 PM	#3
edg19 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2006 Location: chicago suburb Posts: 4	sm primer Mike I'm using once fired win nt edg19

November 6, 2006, 11:16 AM	#4
JoeHatley Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 1999 Location: Iowa Posts: 2,135	I've releaded a few boxes of the "Non-Toxic" brass with the small primer pocket. They seemed to shoot okay, but I've decieded not to mess with them, and leave them at the range. I don't think the primer size could be causing your fuctioning problems. It's more likely the brass. Maybe it's a bit longer/shorter than the brass you have your dies set for. Joe __________________ Go NRA

November 6, 2006, 12:22 PM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Edg19, The symptoms you describe, taken in combination, are related to lower-than-normal pressure. Most light target loads are right on the edge of cycling the gun. Often you will feel a sudden drop in perceived recoil when your target load gets just below a certain threshold. The gun feels mushier in recoil. This is because you have dropped just below the recoil impluse necessary to push the slide fully into counterbattery where it maks contact with the frame, instead, coming to a stop under recoil spring decelleration alone. It is very comfortable to shoot, but means small changes like drop in ambient temperature or slight relaxing of your grip can cause failure to cylce completely. In this case, apparently, reduction of the primer charge contribution to pressure is enough to tip the balance. You could try going to magnum primers to make up the difference? Check the firing pin indentations on the NT cases. A lot of tight 1911's strike a bit south of center, which might cause ignition consistency problems with a smaller diameter primer. Also, try a target load with a slightly slower powder, like 4 grains of Bullseye. The longer burn time may increase your perceived recoil slightly, but sustain recoil pressure on the slide a bit better. Otherwise, if you are married to the Tightgroup, push the load up to 3.8 grains and see if that doesn't get you out of the marginal zone with the standard small primers? Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

November 6, 2006, 01:14 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,389	Oh, geez, yes, I keep forgetting that that stuff is around. My bad! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 6, 2006, 01:48 PM	#7
edg19 Junior Member Join Date: November 5, 2006 Location: chicago suburb Posts: 4	small primer in 45acp thanks unclenick didn't realize there might be a significant change do to primer change

November 6, 2006, 01:53 PM	#8
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Federal's American Eagle brand .45 acp at one time came with a small primer. I'm not sure if they still do as I was given a box of the once fired brass by a friend, and of course I never buy factory ammo. I loaded 50 just to see how they worked my regular loading and had no trouble. I threw them out later just because I did not want to have to keep track of which brass took large and which took small primers. Although I would think that you'd see problems over a period of time even usiing large primers, I suppose if your load is right on the edge of being too light to cycle the pistol properly, it is possible that the reduction in primer ignition has affected the functionality of the round. After all, there is a reason most makers of ammo for the .45 acp use a large primer. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

November 6, 2006, 11:55 PM	#9
tINY Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2005 Location: Orygun Posts: 2,589	The 454 I have uses small RIFLE primers.... Small pistol primers are a bit on the whimpy side for a fat, short case like 45ACP. -tINY

November 7, 2006, 08:32 AM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Use of regular small pistol primers in NT brass probably cost you about 35 fps from an already light load versus ACP brass with large pistol primers. You can increase the powder charge or load with hotter primers, either small pistol Magnum or small rifle standard; to get back to normal function.