ATF Project Gunrunner

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by JustThisGuy

WildAlaska reported that gun store owners have been "shopped" by undercover DoJ officials trying to purchase guns legal in their state, but illegal in NYC, presenting themselves as hunters who want a gun to use locally.

No, Wildalaska did not say that. He said the buyers were private investigators working for NY City Mayor Bloomberg.

[alloy]

The last round of hearings really highlighted a dichotomy between agents who seem to want all firearms tightly controlled and will lie, obfuscate, and even create situations to assist those ends, and another part of the agency, with what I percieved as forthcoming, honest answers....a part that just seems to want firearms out of the hands of criminals, with minimal restrictions on everyone else.
It's a stark contrast, and an agency infused with enough power to handle the second....doesn't need the type/style of leadership the first seems to be currently providing.

[CowTowner]

I think we also saw a gulf in the understanding of what should be common BATFE nomenclature and definitions.
Mr. Newell testified that "walking" a gun meant an agency's evidence prop gun got out of their control. I think that would be similar to "marked bills" used in a sting disappearing.
Whereas Mr. Canino testified that he was trained not to let any gun "walk" for any reason. There was no distinction between a BATFE gun and any other gun.
It would seem that either someone was covering their 6, or the training within the BATFE is not consistent.
IMHO, the former seems more likely.

[alloy]

Yep, I think you're right.
Mr. Newell's testimony was painful to watch, a few times I had to walk away...it was like a kid saying "I didn't eat the candy bar" with a big ring of chocolate around his mouth. Over and over and over. I don't see how he still has a job.

[JustThisGuy]

Aguila Blanca said...

Originally Posted by Secguru: WildAlaska reported that gun store owners have been "shopped" by undercover DoJ officials trying to purchase guns legal in their state, but illegal in NYC, presenting themselves as hunters who want a gun to use locally.

No, Wildalaska did not say that. He said the buyers were private investigators working for NY City Mayor Bloomberg.

Aguila, you are correct. Upon reading your post, I remember that it was the Bloomberg posse, not the DoJ.

Please accept my apology for the factual error and thank you for correcting it.

[alan]

Re the president's executive order of 25 July, 2011, as I read them, several posts predicted that this order would allow, or create a situation where the private property (money and merchandise) of Americans and or privately owned domestic business (gun shops), could be seized, this sorry state of affairs being a side effect of Operation Fast and Furious.

Possibly so, but having read the thing, I do not see anything of this sort therein. Should something interesting here escape my attention, please point me in the correct direction.

Alan

[Don H]

Interesting Associated Press article here: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT

"What led to `Project Gunwalker'?"

[JimPage]

Don H:

That looks like a fairly good article, but I was shocked to see that it bought into the 90% trace to the US figure. That was pure propaganda and even the main stream media no longer uses the numbers, just generalities. But there are some pretty damning assertions from agents that I'm glad are getting out.

I long for the public report of the fiasco. I hope is not cleansed to save face for the administration.

[Aguila Blanca]

Wow -

All that column ink, and not a single mention of the fact that the "Fast and Furious" program could never have accomplished what the BATFE now claims it was intended to -- catch higher-ups -- because the BATFE liaison people in Mexico were not part of the team. In fact, they had no knowledge of the operation. So how can the BATFE credibly claim that they were 'tracking" the weapons when they had no means to do that?

I remain firmly of the opinion that the intent of "Fast and Furious" had nothing to do with catching bigger cartel fish, and everything to do with boosting the number of Mexican crime guns that would be easily traced back to the United States, thereby justifying administration claims that more stringent gun control is needed. I firmly believe that the geniuses behind this program didn't anticipate that the guns might be used here in the U.S. I believe they simplistically assumed they would be used, found, and traced in Mexico, and they were willing to accept the death of Mexicans as collateral damage.

Then a Border Patrol agent was killed, and the cover-up was initiated.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

[2guns]

I am with you, Aguila Blanca.

This entire fiasco was cooked up to make the case for more gun restrictions on law-abiding American gun owners. I would further assert that Obama and Holder were likely the chief architects of the idea. Whether we ever get to the truth and tie them to it is another matter and one not so easily attained with the willing tools in the MSM running cover for Obama.

Keep pushing!

[Standing Wolf]

I am with you, Aguila Blanca.

I am, too—but we're still not a police state, because the gun police have been embarrassed.

[Edward429451]

we're centimeters from it. The technology is in and place and all that's left is the crisis to bring the martial law.

[Al Norris]

Originally Posted by Edward429451

we're centimeters from it. The technology is in and place and all that's left is the crisis to bring the martial law.

Bull-Pucky.

What kind of "crisis" would it take to render all the State courts and the Federal courts, inoperative?

I guarantee that whatever type of disaster befall the entire nation, such that it totally disrupted all civilian law and law enforcement, we would all have more things to worry about than mere gun possession.

Think it through. What would be the manpower requirements alone, to enforce Martial Law on every City, Town, Village and Hamlet in America?

Such conspiracy theories belong on the dung-heap, as they have no basis in reality.

[gyvel]

I could be wrong (and probably am), but I believe martial law in the U.S. is prohibited.

[Micahweeks]

Such conspiracy theories belong on the dung-heap, as they have no basis in reality.

Sheez. Touchy.

I don't buy the martial law idea, either, just based on my familiarity with the kind of resources available to our local LE agencies in my area. It simply isn't doable. Now, drumming up erroneous statistics from an intentionally botched operation for the purpose of making another gun control push? That, I find believable.

[publius42]

Don H:

That looks like a fairly good article, but I was shocked to see that it bought into the 90% trace to the US figure.

That was a rather striking failure to research in what was otherwise a very thorough article. It is also another demonstration that a lie repeated often enough can become "true" in the political world.

Still a good article, worth reading and passing around.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Micahweeks

I don't buy the martial law idea, either, just based on my familiarity with the kind of resources available to our local LE agencies in my area. It simply isn't doable.

Martial law is the suspension of civilian government and the imposition of military oversight. The local and state police would not be involved in a martial law situation. Technically, if martial law were imposed they'd all be out of work.

[Micahweeks]

We don't have the military resources, either. Hell, we would have to pull back our soldiers, tanks, etc. from several dozen other countries first. It won't happen. 300 million people is near impossible to impose that on with a military spread across the globe.

[gyvel]

Martial law is the suspension of civilian government and the imposition of military oversight. The local and state police would not be involved in a martial law situation. Technically, if martial law were imposed they'd all be out of work.

If I understand correctly (and again, I probably don't) the Posse Comitatus Act severely limits the power of the Federal government to suspend habeas corpus, i.e. impose martial law, in any jurisdiction where state, county and local courts and law enforcement are still operational.

Bear in mind that this only applies to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, and Coast Guard in times of war, but NOT to National Guard units because they are under the control of the governors of the states.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by gyvel

If I understand correctly (and again, I probably don't) the Posse Comitatus Act severely limits the power of the Federal government to suspend habeas corpus, i.e. impose martial law, in any jurisdiction where state, county and local courts and law enforcement are still operational.

Bear in mind that this only applies to the U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines, and Coast Guard in times of war, but NOT to National Guard units because they are under the control of the governors of the states.

It doesn't limit the power of the Federal government to impose martial law at all. Posse Comitatus prohibits using Army and Air Force personnel for domestic law enforcement purposes. The act does not cover the Navy or the Marines, but they are treated the same as a result of a DoD directive.

But this only means the Army isn't supposed to be used as a substitute for or supplement to civilian law enforcement. If martial law is imposed, the military will replace civilian law enforcement. Different animal, not addressed by Posse Comitatus.

[pnac]

I'm no authority by any means, but NSPD-51/HSPD-20 looks pretty suspicious to me, and it won't take much to trigger it. This is the unclassified part that the public is allowed to see.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/about/offices/fcd1.pdf

Wiki has this to say: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...tial_Directive

[Edward429451]

I can think of several crisis which would do it but that's another thread I think. Perhaps you are right, and I hope you are right. Don't be so absolute though. Let us not under-estimate the arrogance of the government.

A quick google search revealed many instances of Martial Law being instituted here in the US on a limited basis. LA riots, Katrina, Andrew, pepcon, and others. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine them upping the ante.

Does anyone think they keep making Executive Orders because they're not going to do anything?

[Al Norris]

Limited, yes. There's no argument there. As you said, it's been done before.

But on a national level? Uh uh.

Project Gunrunner is not the fiasco that could come close to triggering such a thing.

[GoOfY-FoOt]

Project Gunrunner is not the fiasco that could come close to triggering such a thing.

True. It is much too easy to distract us from these things, like with the current urinating contest between the HoR and the POTUS.

Heck, there was even another sex scandal, recently, but it too, was short-lived in the MSM because of the financial crisis.

I wonder, though, if some of the current issues might have been "enhanced" to distract us from F&F?

[Crosshair]

I wonder, though, if some of the current issues might have been "enhanced" to distract us from F&F?

Well Clinton started bombing countries to distract the people from his dirty dress situation, so who knows what might be done to try and distract people.