Robbers case the place???

[Doggieman]

I always remember the remark "Perps are looking for a score, not a gunfight." I'd advertise with the local shady characters (if you run a pawn shop you know who I'm talking about) that you're armed to the teeth. It'll get around to those who might want to knock you off and they'll probably leave you alone.

And I agree with those who said lose the AR and get another shotgun for this purpose. Unless you think they have body armor.

[Double Naught Spy]

Monday the 18th a Value Pawn only three blocks away was robbed at gun point by 2 armed bad guys @ 10:32AM. Employees and even customers were forced to the ground and held for the duration of the robbery.

Yes, they do that. The even put customers on the ground as customers are a threat to them just like employees. The notion that "even cusomers were forced to the ground and held" is nothing unusual.

I will be wearing my vest and the kel-tec p-32 until they are captured

Wait, you believe that two bad guys who already have a history of takeover robbery have cased your place and all you are carrying on your person is a P-32? Given that you can carry a gun in your shop, don't you think it would be much more wise to carry something more substantial?

I disagree however about the AR and shotgun being useless. At our shop we see most customers well in advance and only on very rare occasions when we are slammed do we fail to track incomers. Unless they come in guns hidden and then pull them in which case our sidearms are fastest. They will be useful if an attack is coming and we see it in time.....better than a handgun for sure.

A long gun isn't useless, sure enough, but the question is one of access. You may not have time to access your stowed long gun. That is just one of those logistical realities. In fact, depending on how good the bad guys are, you may be hard pressed to access a carried gun in time. As for tracking incoming customers, good luck. Since they know you have cameras, if they come in, they will come with guns hidden most likely.

[threegun]

Double Naught,

Since they know you have cameras, if they come in, they will come with guns hidden most likely.

They knew value pawn had cameras and had masks on upon entry. Trust me when I tell you that it would be ugly for them if they try coming in with masks on as we will know intent in advance.

Also I carry a Glock 35 in a super belt slide holster. The vest and kel-tec are just additions until the perps are caught.

Doggie,

I always remember the remark "Perps are looking for a score, not a gunfight." I'd advertise with the local shady characters (if you run a pawn shop you know who I'm talking about) that you're armed to the teeth. It'll get around to those who might want to knock you off and they'll probably leave you alone.

Our shops already have a reputation among local thugs of being hardened. We hear things like "these MFers don't play" and "they are all strapped up in here" all the time. I believe that it is the main reason we have never been robbed second only to the guns themselves. Also this is one of the reasons I bring the AR and display it. It garners more positive attention from the locals that anything else. I use to bring it once or twice a week now it comes daily.

[Neophyte]

I drag this link out every so often, but I think it still has some valuable information that applies here even if it's a bit of a derail.

"Flimflam" was a poster on rec.guns for many years who owned a pawn shop in Florida. He was both familiar and comfortable with firearms. One day, a man entered his shop to buy a firearm, a .357 I recall. Well, the check came back "delay" or "conditional denial" - I can't remember which. Flimflam refused the sale - even if the check might eventually clear he thought that the guy was just too... "off". Strange. Hinky.

How right he was. The man became extremely upset, went out to his car, and came back and stabbed Flimflam in the stomach with a ninja sword.

Here's the thread on rec.guns where Flimflam describes the attack. Everyone should read it, but at least note the following:

Originally Posted by Flimflam

To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go, with
one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I didn't
have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all ready to
go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot of things
around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon.

Anyway, just as I arrived at the desk, I realized that the damn piece
wasn't in the drawer, and I better change the plan-- again. I turned to
face the attaker, and was greeted with the most serious of the blade
thrusts, as it went into my lower left abdomen, and grabbed one of the
intestines. In a fit of panic/stupidity/desperation/whatever, I grabbed
the blade with my left hand, and kept him from running me all the way
through. It was at this moment I finally remembered my Beretta in my right
pocket.

He later says "at that moment, everything changed" and "I KNEW I was going to survive." Why? Because even though he had powerful hardware liberally scattered about the store, it was only the dinky pocket .25 that he had on him that saved his life.

By all means, add additional firearms if you wish. But if you can gather anything from this anecdote, I think it should be this - be prepared to be stupid. What I mean is that, for all the planning and strategy that you may come up with (and they may be good plans), you should have at least one fallback, no-thought-required method of defending yourself - a gun you have on your person. Note that for all Flimflam's experience and stashed hardware his brain suffered from a kind of mental "tunnel vision" during the attack - leading him astray into a place where he would have died had it not been for his silly little afterthought of a handgun.

What I'd emphasize to everyone, not just threegun, is that if your plan to defend yourself in an attack starts out "First, I go get my gun"....then you probably need a new plan. My 2 cents, and sorry for the derail.

[Dr. Courtney]

I think I'd carry a big 44 magnum openly, but unloaded so I could give it up easily in a struggle without fear of getting shot with it. I'd have a couple of .357 Sig P229's carried concealed, and I'd be wearing a kevlar vest.

I'd also give some thought to the arrangement of counters, shelving, and display type of stuff to be sure I had cover and the bad guys did not.

I don't really like the long gun in play in the customer area. It might make sense for there to be one locked (with quick access) in a stockroom or office for a person there to come to the aid of the clerk in the customer area, but having a loaded long gun in the customer area just sets up a contest for control of it that could go either way, unless the counter presents a more substantial barrier than most or it is always under the immediate control of a highly skilled defensive shooter in the sales area.

I had a cash-based retail business for a number of years in a high crime area, and we were cased a few times. I thought about keeping the long gun handy, but could not solve the problem of keeping it under immediate control while meeting customer needs. So I settled on two P229's in .357 Sig, both on my person. There was a long arm locked in close proximity, but it would have taken 5 or more seconds to get it unlocked and into action. The grace of God, a high level of awareness and looking the bad guys in the eye kept things peaceful. I didn't carry openly, because that would have aroused an undue level of scrutiny both from the local law enforcement and from the property managers. (I owned the business but not the location where business was conducted. I have never been slow to open carry on property I own.)

Michael Courtney

[Rangefinder]

I have to say--after watching both survellance videos, those two are not only ametures, but rock stupid. It was a little confusing at first because one of the videos is a reverse image (mirrored) and not enough writing is clear in either one to tell which one right away. Without audio, I have no idea what kind of communication may have been going on between them. But by appearance, I'd guess the extent of their plan was "You keep an eye on the people while I get the goods." There was no real organization to what they were doing. The guy doing the covering wandered away from the hostages several times to go collect a new customer who stumbled in and made it half way across the floor before being intercepted. He wasn't wearing a mask, he was holding it up with one hand the whole time while he held both a gun and what looked like a glove in the other hand. And from the door camera, I couldn't help but notice a guy in a red/patterned shirt come in at what already appeared to be a robbery in progress, wander causually left off-screen, and it didn't look as though he was ever noticed by either robber. The guy doing the grabbing put his weapon down several times, turned his back to the clerk after putting his weapon down, all while his cover was not covering, but distracted with collecting another customer. They both fumbled around as if they were just making it up as they went. I've seen better organization among fifth-graders. A little situational awareness and a basic plan in place should ruin these guys' day in no time at all.

[threegun]

Rangefinder, The guy behind the counter laid his gun down several times LOL. They were definitely stupid and unorganized.

Neophyte, A few months ago a kid (20 something) entered our shop with a ninja sword in a scabbard. One of our employees greeted him and informed him that we only accepted high quality swords which his was not. The youngster broke the seal on the sword about 2 inches (as if to begin to draw the sword). My coworker in a serious and firm voice told him "don't draw that blade". As if my coworker was speaking Chinese the kid drew the blade. My coworker drew his XD simultaneously. The blade was dropped and the kid ran from the store leaving his buddy to sheath the sword and apologize for his "retarded" friend.

[Seven High]

Just so that you are aware, in my area there have been reports of burglars following customers from gun stores to their residences. The burglars will then go to the residence when they feel that it is vacant and burglarize it. They are looking for guns mostly. Be aware of someone possibly following you when you leave a gun shop. Don't go directly home if you can.

[Socrates]

Hi
Yes, I've always felt the most vulnerable leaving a large restaurant, late at night, alone.

That would be the time to get taken by surprise, forced back into the business, and the advantage going to the crooks.

Does Florida have a gun safe law, like Kali?

S

PS

I don't think these guys are going to come anywhere near you store, but, they might go after someone in the parking lot...
PPS

Being open 24/7 does add a bit of a twist. They would have to take a hostage, and then be buzzed back in.


PPPS: Despite appearing to be not very good at this, they did walk out of the store with a couple of bags full of stuff. They really should move to San Francisco. They'd fit right in...

[Doggieman]

Thanks for the post Neophyte.. amazing read and an important lesson. I think that might be one problem with wearing a gun on you all the time -- you can forget it's there!

[JohnKSa]

Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.

I think this is the best idea so far.

[threegun]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer
Make some life size target pictures of them and post them in the parking lot.

I think this is the best idea so far.

Certainly was the funniest. Imagine the facial expression of the bad guys as they pull up and see that. Perhaps with a few rounds in them LOL.

[DeathRodent]

Forget the parking lot post them on the door so they see it when they walk in maybe add a red target circle!

If they recognize themselves and they still come in they mean big trouble

Chances are if they see themselves they will know you know and will not come back MOST of these BGs want the element of surprise not all but most

[nbk2000]

I wouldn't call them purely amateur (though definately not pro), as they didn't use any physical violence against anyone, like a lot of punks will.

The fact that the guy collecting the loot set his gun down several times shouldn't be used to dismiss the fact that his partner had several hostages at gunpoint.

What would you have had the girl do, grab the gun and start shooting? How many innocents die?

If they get the drop on you, you cooperate unless you have a clear opening, are able to exploit it, and aren't going to get anyone but yourself killed if you F it up.

There are plenty of trade magazine articles dealing with security architecture, such as controlled entrances, security partitions, etc, so reading up on them would be good, so as to prevent robbers from even attempting it in the first place.

Another thing is to try avoid fighting the last war. Or, in this case, focusing on the latest TV boogy-men.

There are plenty of other criminals out there who aren't these two. Being too focused on these two fools could cause you to miss another criminal casing you.

As for quick in-and-out peekers 'casing' you, that's not likely, as you can't case a place properly like that. I myself have walked in the door of a business that drew my interest from the outside, only to turn right around after 5 seconds when I realized they had nothing of interest to me inside, having only stepped five feet in the door.

(I realized, after re-reading the above, that it sounds like I was casing the places. No, I wasn't.)

If I was going to rob you, I'd wander around the store looking at stuff, engage you in a conversation, ask you for something that'd require you to turn around or bend over, so I could see if I could spot a concealed weapon, and get a quick glance at any visible security.

I'd come back a week or so later and buy a small item, engaging another clerk, and run the same routine, focusing on some details that caught my eye on the first pass.

(This would probably work better for me than most, as I'm white and look quite harmless, the cover not matching the book. )

Repeat once or twice more, looking for patterns, if any, that could be exploitable.

I'd likely take the bus, as a get-away car will be stolen for the job, and there's no need to bring my personal vehicle to the scene of a future crime...just in case, so there's no plates to copy down.

Then come back to do the job after several months have passed since my last interior visit. Still have video of me? I seriously doubt it, and it's even less likely you'd recognize me by physical dimensions alone, as there'd be not an inch of exposed skin.

You could make the place too difficult to get into quickly, thus preventing any blitzkrieg robbers from getting in. But go easy on it, 'cause you can make the place feel very unfriendly, driving away the honest customers.

Relying solely on firepower for defense is a lack of imagination.

What good would the gun do your family being held hostage by his crimey while you're at work? He could be standing in front of you, and what could you do to him that isn't going to result in your family getting killed?

[threegun]

NBK2000, If someone wants you dead bad enough you are dead. Likewise if someone wants to rob your store bad enough, it will happen. Their level of success will depend upon their intelligence, preparation, and execution. Considering that in over a decade of working here we have not been robbed, while other shops endure multiple robberies per year, I would say our prevention methods are pretty good. Still no business is robbery proof.....we understand this. Heck if I thought otherwise I wouldn't have posted asking for tips.

[Bigfatts]

A wise teacher once told me "Prey behavior triggers a predatory reaction." From what it sounds like, you do very well at not appearing as easy prey. And that is the best deterrent. That is what bad guys look for, an easy mark. They don't want to tango with the guys that look prepared for them. If I was a crook and walked into a place to case it, I would be looking for cameras and sizing up the employees. If the employees are alert looking and aware of the customers and their actions, I am not going to take that lightly, I don't want to be identified. I see guns? Whoa, hold on. These guys might put up a fight. I think I'll go somewhere else. I want to have the greatest chance of success that I can. A visibly armed, alert presence is one of the best deterrents. Why do you think banks with visible security get robbed less than ones without? Because he's a highly trained security guard? Nope. Most of the time it's simply the armed presence. Maybe get one of those signs that says something like "Smile, you're on camera!" if you don't already have something of the like.

It is a terrible thing to say but your goal is to send these guys to someone else. Whether it is these specific guys, or your average badd'uns. If you remain alert, and look it, most likely you will continue without being robbed.

[threegun]

Bigfats, Dead on buddy. We don't have a sign but we do have a monitor that they can see part of what we can.

[nbk2000]

You may not be getting robbed simply because you're not worth robbing, compared to your competitors?

Also, if your competitors get tired of getting robbed and close up, where does that leave you?

No matter how well prepared you are, if you're the only meat at the watering hole, there's always something in the bushes hungry enough to try and take you down.

Even if you don't get taken down, you can still be wounded, and wounded could mean literally, mental, or financially.

The longer it doesn't happen, the greater the likelyhood it will, so you may already be overdue. More than a decade without one could suggest to someone that you've become fat with profit and are ripe for plucking.

Good thing you asked for advice now.

[KingofAttendance]

Have your AR or shotty closeby, and if you see both of them come in together then go for it immediately. Better safe than sorry

[threegun]

NBK2000, "ripe for the plucking" LOL. Now picture an orchard of those trees or vines you are about to pluck. One tree/vine has several deadly snakes on it. The fruit is the same on all the trees and only the deadly snakes differentiate the one tree from the others. Yes our fruit is ripe, has been since day one over 25 years ago. Our tree however has always had deadly snakes in it and our fruit is left alone.

I started here about 14 years ago part time then full time. No robberies or attempts..........a few burglaries but no robberies.

[festergrump]

Originally Posted by threegun

...a decade of being the only store in Tampa open 24 hours is pretty hard to ignore...

Originally Posted by threegun

...a few burglaries but no robberies.

Pardon me for noticing, but those must have been some hard-core criminals to burglarize a shop that's open 24 hours a day, especially when the employees have always been so well armed. Were they ever caught?

[nbk2000]

Well, Festergrump, that's one way to kill a thread.

[threegun]

Fester,

Pardon me for noticing, but those must have been some hard-core criminals to burglarize a shop that's open 24 hours a day, especially when the employees have always been so well armed. Were they ever caught?

Can someone say SARCASM LOL? We had one shop open 24hrs for a period of about 10 years. It was closed on Sunday however. We have another shop that closed at midnight for a couple of years before going to 10pm and now 9pm. I can remember 5 or 6 burglaries and only one the infamous "spiderman" or "roof top bandit" was eventually caught.