8mm Mauser Full-Power

garryc · September 16, 2012, 09:38 AM

Here the project. I have a good bit of yugo 8mm ammo. It will not fire do to primers et too deep. It only works in my yugo rifle with some fail to fires. I'm pulling bullets and reloading into boxer brass. The bullets weigh 199 grains AV.

I have two ponds of IMR 4320 that are kind of old. I want to use that. All I find is panty waste loads in the 36,000 CUP level. I'm looking for full power and am thinking maybe 47 grains.

I don't have any old Mausers, What I am going to shoot them in is a mint Persian.

m&p45acp10+1 · September 16, 2012, 10:00 AM

Loading then hotter will probably not get you more accuracy. Just more recoil. I have no listing for 199 grain ammo in my Lyman 48th. If loads stop before max pressure in the manual it is either because pressure was erratic or accuracy went down the toilet.

Someone here may come along and run quick load for you.

garryc · September 16, 2012, 01:50 PM

The thing is that max pressure in most manuals is set at 36000 cup in deference to some idiot that might put it in a M88 commission rifle, or to a lesser extent a small ring action. 36000 cup is realistic for the M88, and 45000 for a small ring. The 98 action is a large ring and it rated just as good or better than a Springfield in 30-06, or a M700 Remington. M98 actions have been converted to just about every cartridge that will fit the mag. The Persian is the cream of the crop and should be kicking out a 200 grain bullet in the 2600 fps range. In the field there is no real difference in a 30-06 and an 8mm Mauser. Any advantage, one way or the other, is strictly academic.

Norma data has that weight running right on the heels of 2600fps, but I don't have Norma powder.

mehavey · September 16, 2012, 11:12 PM

For entertainment purposes only.....

YMMV

Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP)
Bullet: .322, 198, PrviPartizan FMJ BT B-022
Useable Case Capaci: 55.681 grain H2O = 3.615 cm³
OAL: 3.228 inch = 81.99 mm
Barrel Length: 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder: IMR 4320
CIP MAX: 56,565psi

Code:

PwdrWt	V (fps)	E (ft.lbs.)  Pmax (psi)	Burn
46.0	2,479	2,702	       44,339	98.3
46.2	2,489	2,723	       44,888	98.4
46.4	2,498	2,744	       45,443	98.5
46.6	2,508	2,766	       46,005	98.6
46.8	2,518	2,787	       46,576	98.7
47.0	2,528	2,809	       47,153	98.8
47.2	2,537	2,831	       47,738	98.9
47.4	2,547	2,852	       48,330	99.0
47.6	2,557	2,874	       48,930	99.0
47.8	2,567	2,896	       49,535	99.1
48.0	2,576	2,918	       50,152	99.2
48.2	2,586	2,940	       50,776	99.3
48.4	2,596	2,962	       51,406	99.3
48.6	2,605	2,984	       52,045	99.4
48.8	2,615	3,006	       52,692	99.4
49.0	2,624	3,028	       53,348	99.5

NOTE: IMR Tops out at 48,500 CUP, and for a lower bullet weight
180 GR. NOS BT
IMR 4320
OAL: 3.020"
Min: 38.0 2,140fps 35,800 CUP
Max 47.3 2,533fps 48,500 CUP

BillM · September 16, 2012, 11:33 PM

The primers are "set too deep" on mil-spec 8mm mauser ammo made in
Yugoslavia? It will fire sometimes in your Yugo Mauser but won't work
in your Persian Mauser??

Check the headspace on that Persian before you start crankin' max load
ammo through it.

mehavey · September 17, 2012, 06:24 AM

+ a bunch

garryc · September 17, 2012, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Check the headspace on that Persian before you start crankin' max load
ammo through it.

That's the first thing I check a milsurp. None of my 8mm's will drop on a no go gauge. I have gotten three over the years from suppliers and had them drop on a no go, sent them back.

What's the source on that data Mehavey?

If you look at this link:
http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm You will notice that the 7mm Mauser is listed at 51000 psi and the 8mm Mauser at 35000. Those rounds are fired in the M98. If you look you will see that the 30-06 and the 308 are listed at 60,000 and 61,000 respectively. All the rounds I mentioned have the same body diameter so the load on the receiver ring will be relative. I'm not looking to push past 50,000, not because of the rifle but because of the brass. There is no need to push that brass that hard on a paper puncher load.

From what your info says Mehavey, I'd say my call of 48 grains of IMR 4320 is pretty close to what I want.

mehavey · September 17, 2012, 01:16 PM

Source is QuickLoad using:
-- The (modern) CIP pressure rating of 56,500psi at Top end
-- IMR4320 loading is centered about a "nice" 48-50,000psi military loading akin to standard M2 ball

This is the kind of Options Analysis QuickLoad excels at

Para Cassatt · September 17, 2012, 10:04 PM

Here's some old data from Speer's #7. They didn't have a 200 gr. bullet back then but the 220 gr. starting data can be used to work up a load. They did use hot data 45 years ago. The current Handloader issue has an article by John Barsness on hotter 8x57 loads with newer powders that I found very interesting.

Well doesn't look like the file is small enough to post so I'll fill it in.
IMR 4320 with 220 gr RN
49.0 gr for 2456 fps Max.
47.0 gr for 2402 fps Mid.
45.0 gr. for 2303 fps starting

garryc · September 17, 2012, 10:24 PM

Thanks Para

Jimro · September 18, 2012, 06:23 PM

garryc,

The 35000 psi limit on 8x57 comes from the difference between the 8x57J and JS bore diameter, .318 verses .323. SAAMI specs exist because America is the dumping ground for old milsurps on the international market and we get a little bit of everything eventually.

All K98's have the newer .323 bore, and only a very few Gew98's had the older .318 bore. So if you aren't sure on the bore of your Persian (I've never encountered one with a .318 bore, but better safe than sorry) you might want to slug it.

The "low pressure" rounds are designed to let some idjit survive pushing an oversized bullet through an undersized bore. I'd hate to see some poor schmuck try to run some Euro spec 8x57 through an old 88 Commission rifle because someone told him that "The Mauser action is the strongest ever made!"

Jimro

oldscot3 · September 18, 2012, 09:14 PM

I'm going out on limb here, and posting this without looking it up, but as I recall the last of the .318 bore mausers were produced before WW I ended, perhaps even before that.

Persian mausers were military contract mausers produced in the 1930s between the wars, therefore, no such thing as a .318 bore Persian mauser.

I have two, purchased years ago, very near mint condition and of all the mauser variants I've handled, inspected and fired, they are my very favorites.
The craftsmanship is amazing and I wouldn't fear firing loads on the level the op described.

My own loads using Sierra 175s and 4064 are undoubtably hotter than 35000, and I've been firing it through my weapons for years without the slightest hint of trouble. No rifle trouble, no problems with brass.

I don't think the op will have trouble either, if the load he mentioned stays under 50,000 as suggested.

PS - I noticed the gentleman who posted the QuickLoad data used a barrel length of 25 inches. My Persians have barrels a little better than 29 inches long.

Jimro · September 18, 2012, 10:22 PM

oldscot,

Good info, I was pretty sure that the Persians were all .323 bore, but I couldn't remember if they had ordered any small rings prior to 1906. If they did I couldn't find them on a google search.

Those Czech made m98 rifles were among the best. Wish I'd picked up a couple more back when they were still cheap.

Jimro

Clark · September 19, 2012, 02:28 AM

I took a 1903 Turkish Mauser 8x57mm to the range in 2004 with 200 gr Match Kings, shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100meters, and recorded this string:
2618, 2633, 2649, 2623, 2650, 2626, 2638 fps.

I took it to the range again in 2006 with Sierra 220 gr hunting bullets and recorded this velocity
2553 fps
1.3" group at 50 yards.

The first trip to the range the loads were not that hot, but the second time they were.
Kicked like a mule.
I worked up the loads with surplus IMR4895.

Jimro · September 19, 2012, 12:12 PM

Those velocities are definitely on the hot side for a 220 grain from the 8x57. That is a 10% increase in bullet mass at the normal velocity for full power 200 grain loads. With a temp sensitive powder like 4895 I'd stay clear of max loads, not that it would hurt the rifle (pretty much any m98 can handle it) but for fear of a stuck case.

Jimro

garryc · September 19, 2012, 11:10 PM

Well, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy over 48 grains of IMR 4320. That always seemed like a useful but overlooked powder to me.

FrankenMauser · September 20, 2012, 01:07 AM

Quote:

With a temp sensitive powder like 4895 I'd stay clear of max loads, not that it would hurt the rifle (pretty much any m98 can handle it) but for fear of a stuck case.

It's Clark.
That's a light load for him.

As for the 4320... I really didn't expect the Quickload predictions to be that efficient. It seems your hunch may be correct, Garry.

garryc · September 22, 2012, 12:52 AM

I pulled the bullets and loaded them with 48 grains of 4320. The ammo was originally loaded in 1955 and has a 198 grain bullet. The bullet is not magnetic.

Little PO'd though. I opened a new bag of Winchester 8mm Mauser brass. I'd been sitting on it for several years. 3 out of 10 do not have the flash hole drilled. So, what is the drill size for a flash hole?

FrankenMauser · September 22, 2012, 01:31 AM

Flash holes should be about 0.082". A #45 drill bit should get the job done. (Anything from #42 to #46 should be fine.)

Just be careful that you don't let it 'bite' the brass. You'll snap the bit.

garryc · September 22, 2012, 08:38 AM

Years ago I would have reground that drill point on a stone to flatten it out some for that very reason. Not now, I can't even see the point well enough to re-cut it, even with glasses.

After loading auto pistol rounds and 223 all summer picking up these 8mm rounds is like picking up a log.

September 16, 2012, 09:38 AM	#1
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	8mm Mauser Full-Power Here the project. I have a good bit of yugo 8mm ammo. It will not fire do to primers et too deep. It only works in my yugo rifle with some fail to fires. I'm pulling bullets and reloading into boxer brass. The bullets weigh 199 grains AV. I have two ponds of IMR 4320 that are kind of old. I want to use that. All I find is panty waste loads in the 36,000 CUP level. I'm looking for full power and am thinking maybe 47 grains. I don't have any old Mausers, What I am going to shoot them in is a mint Persian. Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; September 17, 2012 at 08:21 AM.

September 16, 2012, 10:00 AM	#2
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Loading then hotter will probably not get you more accuracy. Just more recoil. I have no listing for 199 grain ammo in my Lyman 48th. If loads stop before max pressure in the manual it is either because pressure was erratic or accuracy went down the toilet. Someone here may come along and run quick load for you. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

September 17, 2012, 01:16 PM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	Source is QuickLoad using: -- The (modern) CIP pressure rating of 56,500psi at Top end -- IMR4320 loading is centered about a "nice" 48-50,000psi military loading akin to standard M2 ball This is the kind of Options Analysis QuickLoad excels at Last edited by mehavey; September 17, 2012 at 01:26 PM.

September 17, 2012, 10:04 PM	#9
Para Cassatt Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2010 Location: South Carolina Posts: 117	Here's some old data from Speer's #7. They didn't have a 200 gr. bullet back then but the 220 gr. starting data can be used to work up a load. They did use hot data 45 years ago. The current Handloader issue has an article by John Barsness on hotter 8x57 loads with newer powders that I found very interesting. Well doesn't look like the file is small enough to post so I'll fill it in. IMR 4320 with 220 gr RN 49.0 gr for 2456 fps Max. 47.0 gr for 2402 fps Mid. 45.0 gr. for 2303 fps starting __________________ Have you taken someone shooting lately? Last edited by Para Cassatt; September 17, 2012 at 10:21 PM. Reason: pic didn't post

September 18, 2012, 06:23 PM	#11
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	garryc, The 35000 psi limit on 8x57 comes from the difference between the 8x57J and JS bore diameter, .318 verses .323. SAAMI specs exist because America is the dumping ground for old milsurps on the international market and we get a little bit of everything eventually. All K98's have the newer .323 bore, and only a very few Gew98's had the older .318 bore. So if you aren't sure on the bore of your Persian (I've never encountered one with a .318 bore, but better safe than sorry) you might want to slug it. The "low pressure" rounds are designed to let some idjit survive pushing an oversized bullet through an undersized bore. I'd hate to see some poor schmuck try to run some Euro spec 8x57 through an old 88 Commission rifle because someone told him that "The Mauser action is the strongest ever made!" Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 16, 2012, 01:50 PM	#3
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	The thing is that max pressure in most manuals is set at 36000 cup in deference to some idiot that might put it in a M88 commission rifle, or to a lesser extent a small ring action. 36000 cup is realistic for the M88, and 45000 for a small ring. The 98 action is a large ring and it rated just as good or better than a Springfield in 30-06, or a M700 Remington. M98 actions have been converted to just about every cartridge that will fit the mag. The Persian is the cream of the crop and should be kicking out a 200 grain bullet in the 2600 fps range. In the field there is no real difference in a 30-06 and an 8mm Mauser. Any advantage, one way or the other, is strictly academic. Norma data has that weight running right on the heels of 2600fps, but I don't have Norma powder.

September 16, 2012, 11:12 PM	#4
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	For entertainment purposes only..... YMMV Cartridge: 8 x 57 IS (8 mm Mauser CIP) Bullet: .322, 198, PrviPartizan FMJ BT B-022 Useable Case Capaci: 55.681 grain H2O = 3.615 cm³ OAL: 3.228 inch = 81.99 mm Barrel Length: 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm Powder: IMR 4320 CIP MAX: 56,565psi Code: PwdrWt V (fps) E (ft.lbs.) Pmax (psi) Burn 46.0 2,479 2,702 44,339 98.3 46.2 2,489 2,723 44,888 98.4 46.4 2,498 2,744 45,443 98.5 46.6 2,508 2,766 46,005 98.6 46.8 2,518 2,787 46,576 98.7 47.0 2,528 2,809 47,153 98.8 47.2 2,537 2,831 47,738 98.9 47.4 2,547 2,852 48,330 99.0 47.6 2,557 2,874 48,930 99.0 47.8 2,567 2,896 49,535 99.1 48.0 2,576 2,918 50,152 99.2 48.2 2,586 2,940 50,776 99.3 48.4 2,596 2,962 51,406 99.3 48.6 2,605 2,984 52,045 99.4 48.8 2,615 3,006 52,692 99.4 49.0 2,624 3,028 53,348 99.5 NOTE: IMR Tops out at 48,500 CUP, and for a lower bullet weight 180 GR. NOS BT IMR 4320 OAL: 3.020" Min: 38.0 2,140fps 35,800 CUP Max 47.3 2,533fps 48,500 CUP Last edited by mehavey; September 16, 2012 at 11:31 PM.

September 16, 2012, 11:33 PM	#5
BillM Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Amity Oregon Posts: 791	The primers are "set too deep" on mil-spec 8mm mauser ammo made in Yugoslavia? It will fire sometimes in your Yugo Mauser but won't work in your Persian Mauser?? Check the headspace on that Persian before you start crankin' max load ammo through it.

September 17, 2012, 06:24 AM	#6
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,882	+ a bunch

September 17, 2012, 10:24 PM	#10
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Thanks Para

September 18, 2012, 09:14 PM	#12
oldscot3 Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: texas Posts: 997	I'm going out on limb here, and posting this without looking it up, but as I recall the last of the .318 bore mausers were produced before WW I ended, perhaps even before that. Persian mausers were military contract mausers produced in the 1930s between the wars, therefore, no such thing as a .318 bore Persian mauser. I have two, purchased years ago, very near mint condition and of all the mauser variants I've handled, inspected and fired, they are my very favorites. The craftsmanship is amazing and I wouldn't fear firing loads on the level the op described. My own loads using Sierra 175s and 4064 are undoubtably hotter than 35000, and I've been firing it through my weapons for years without the slightest hint of trouble. No rifle trouble, no problems with brass. I don't think the op will have trouble either, if the load he mentioned stays under 50,000 as suggested. PS - I noticed the gentleman who posted the QuickLoad data used a barrel length of 25 inches. My Persians have barrels a little better than 29 inches long. Last edited by oldscot3; September 18, 2012 at 09:31 PM.

September 18, 2012, 10:22 PM	#13
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	oldscot, Good info, I was pretty sure that the Persians were all .323 bore, but I couldn't remember if they had ordered any small rings prior to 1906. If they did I couldn't find them on a google search. Those Czech made m98 rifles were among the best. Wish I'd picked up a couple more back when they were still cheap. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 19, 2012, 02:28 AM	#14
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I took a 1903 Turkish Mauser 8x57mm to the range in 2004 with 200 gr Match Kings, shot a 1" 5 shot group at 100meters, and recorded this string: 2618, 2633, 2649, 2623, 2650, 2626, 2638 fps. I took it to the range again in 2006 with Sierra 220 gr hunting bullets and recorded this velocity 2553 fps 1.3" group at 50 yards. The first trip to the range the loads were not that hot, but the second time they were. Kicked like a mule. I worked up the loads with surplus IMR4895. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

September 19, 2012, 12:12 PM	#15
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Those velocities are definitely on the hot side for a 220 grain from the 8x57. That is a 10% increase in bullet mass at the normal velocity for full power 200 grain loads. With a temp sensitive powder like 4895 I'd stay clear of max loads, not that it would hurt the rifle (pretty much any m98 can handle it) but for fear of a stuck case. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

September 19, 2012, 11:10 PM	#16
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Well, I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy over 48 grains of IMR 4320. That always seemed like a useful but overlooked powder to me.

September 22, 2012, 12:52 AM	#18
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	I pulled the bullets and loaded them with 48 grains of 4320. The ammo was originally loaded in 1955 and has a 198 grain bullet. The bullet is not magnetic. Little PO'd though. I opened a new bag of Winchester 8mm Mauser brass. I'd been sitting on it for several years. 3 out of 10 do not have the flash hole drilled. So, what is the drill size for a flash hole?

September 22, 2012, 01:31 AM	#19
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,421	Flash holes should be about 0.082". A #45 drill bit should get the job done. (Anything from #42 to #46 should be fine.) Just be careful that you don't let it 'bite' the brass. You'll snap the bit. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

September 22, 2012, 08:38 AM	#20
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	Years ago I would have reground that drill point on a stone to flatten it out some for that very reason. Not now, I can't even see the point well enough to re-cut it, even with glasses. After loading auto pistol rounds and 223 all summer picking up these 8mm rounds is like picking up a log.

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