To light or not to light... - Page 2

**JohnKSa** · August 24, 2006, 09:23 PM

I can cite TX laws, but I don't know anything about GA law.

§ 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

So, you can THREATEN deadly force when only force (not deadly force) is justified. Or, put another way, drawing and displaying a gun is force but it is not deadly force and therefore can be done legally even in cases when deadly force is not justified.

It IS still considered to be using force but that justification is easier to satisfy.

Maveri9720 · August 24, 2006, 10:11 PM

Very interesting. Thank you for providing me with the quoted law.

Georgia has the same verbage referring to using force, but not deadly force. But it isn't written in the deadly force section, like your's is, about drawing your weapon to create apprehension.

I am going to try to get this answered, b/c I would love to know.

Georgia law says you can't use deadly force to protect your property, ie your car, but it does say you can use force. I was under the impression and still will be until I can clarify, that drawing your weapon isn't a legal option.

Thanks again.

v8fbird · August 25, 2006, 11:01 AM

"Using a cheap flashlight for HD is like using FMJ's in the gun. If you are serious about defending yourself and have the made the choice to keep/carry a weapon; do it the right way, not the cheapest."

Uhhh.......TONS of people, me included, use FMJ as their self defense round, for a plethora of reasons.

OneInTheChamber · August 25, 2006, 11:26 AM

There are very few calibers and situations that make sense to use FMJ. Unless you are trying to penetrate a barrier or body armor, you're better off with a JHP. Not many home intruders where body armor. Not many self defense scenarios involve shooting through a vehicle's door.

Even in the slow moving .45 ACP you can still profit from a properly loaded JHP.

I do understand that "tons" of people do it; but that doesn't make it the best option either.

I'd be really interested in hearing the "plethora of reasons" for an FMJ versus a modern, reliable JHP such as a Hydra-Shok, Hornady TAP, etc.

smince · August 25, 2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

I'd be really interested in hearing the "plethora of reasons" for an FMJ versus a modern, reliable JHP such as a Hydra-Shok, Hornady TAP, etc.

Might be better off to make that a separate thread. It'll be a long one...

v8fbird · August 25, 2006, 11:39 AM

Run a search, I bet you will find a hundred threads on the best type of self defense ammo.

I use it first and foremost because my gun doesn't seem to like HP ammo.

smince · August 25, 2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Run a search, I bet you will find a hundred threads on the best type of self defense ammo.

I bet it won't be FMJ.

Quote:

I use it first and foremost because my gun doesn't seem to like HP ammo.

What do you have? Most modern semi's are designed around working with an HP. Better get it worked on or trade it.

tydephan · August 25, 2006, 12:08 PM

Well...ummm...anyway...I appreciate everyone's time and thoughts regarding TACTICAL LIGHTS mounted on a weapon. Your thoughts have been duly noted and given me a lot to think about.

As a side note, I do not have a weapon mounted light and have always subscribed to the "independent light" theory (typically a Streamlight Stinger, although I do have a mammoth Maglight I still use occasionally), however your thoughts and opinions have made me realize that I need to learn more about low/no-light tactics.

Thanks again for all the thoughts.

v8fbird · August 25, 2006, 12:11 PM

"Better get it worked on or trade it."

OR, I could just keep using FMJ for which I have had not a single problem through thousands of rounds....

tydephan · August 25, 2006, 12:24 PM

And I also read, in regards to weapon-mounted tactical lights (not fmj vs jhp), that, of course, you can have more than one source of light. Thus, if you are hell-bent on mounting a light to your weapon, it is also practical to have an independent light as well, so your options are open at all times.

Just a thought...

tydephan · August 25, 2006, 12:30 PM

An interesting article on low-light tactics by Surefire (imagine that!)...

https://www.surefire.com/surefire_in...0flashlight%22
(will require adobe acrobat reader)

bclark1 · August 25, 2006, 12:45 PM

yea i guess i didn't take geography into account - sorry about the overly broad statement. i've always lived in no-carry areas, just moved to ohio where i can, but there laws still seem to be written pretty restrictively and i don't want to take any chances. i think a lot of brandishing goes unreported, and does deter violence, but my point was just that you're not going to draw on somebody 30 yards out who's not intently focused on you. if the red dot's going to make a difference, it's just my opinion that i think the gun itself would be adequately visible and make them rethink their advance whether or not there's a laser on it.

Capt. Charlie · August 25, 2006, 01:53 PM

Quote:

I'd be really interested in hearing the "plethora of reasons" for an FMJ versus a modern, reliable JHP such as a Hydra-Shok, Hornady TAP, etc.

Might be better off to make that a separate thread. It'll be a long one...

Ahem!

Um... I believe the subject here is, To Light, or Not To Light... with apologies to Shakespeare

.

stephen426 · August 25, 2006, 02:28 PM

For those of you worried about giving away your position, just chuck a flash bang into the room first!

I'm not too sure the wife will bee too pleased about all of the broken glass and charred carpet, but the bad guy will most likely have soiled himself and dropped his weapon!

One other thing to think about... How many of you practice shooting with one hand. If you use the FBI light technique, keeping the light as far away from your body as possible with your weak hand, you are forced to shoot with an unsupported hand. I don't know how good a shot your are one handed, but I can say my one handed shooting is much worse than my 2 handed shooting. Add stress and adrenaline to the equation and it may equal to a lot of missed shots.

Anther techniqe, Harris, a reverse grip on the flash light with the weak hand and the shooting hand supported by the wrist of your weak hand, is similar to having a weapon mounted light. The bad guy can still hit you by shooting at the light. Some support is better than no support, but it is still not as steady as a two naded grip.

I think this would make an interesting poll. I'll go set one up.

dfaugh · August 27, 2006, 02:17 PM

IMHO, using a light is the same as painting "Target" on yourself. I can navigate my whole house in the dark, quite well, and ambient light is enough to identify my target. Haing a light just screams "Shoot me NOW!

Now, if my dogs are raiising Cain at o'dark-thirty in the morning I WOULD use a light for outside my house, so I can see what's going on.

smince · August 27, 2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

I WOULD use a light for outside my house, so I can see what's going on.

If a light is a target inside, isn't it a target outside

dfaugh · August 27, 2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

If a light is a target inside, isn't it a target outside

Not really, as I can effectively use good cover if I'm inside, and potential threat is outside. And often, the "threat" will be a wild animal, if its outside. Yes, someone COULD target me (or the light) but its the difference with being a few feet away, and several yards away. If I'm checking out somethong outside, I'm armed for longer distances (hi-cap rifle) than for inside (shotgun).

August 24, 2006, 09:23 PM	#26
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,973	I can cite TX laws, but I don't know anything about GA law. § 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force. So, you can THREATEN deadly force when only force (not deadly force) is justified. Or, put another way, drawing and displaying a gun is force but it is not deadly force and therefore can be done legally even in cases when deadly force is not justified. It IS still considered to be using force but that justification is easier to satisfy. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

August 24, 2006, 10:11 PM	#27
Maveri9720 Member Join Date: August 8, 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 28	Very interesting. Thank you for providing me with the quoted law. Georgia has the same verbage referring to using force, but not deadly force. But it isn't written in the deadly force section, like your's is, about drawing your weapon to create apprehension. I am going to try to get this answered, b/c I would love to know. Georgia law says you can't use deadly force to protect your property, ie your car, but it does say you can use force. I was under the impression and still will be until I can clarify, that drawing your weapon isn't a legal option. Thanks again. __________________ Knowledge is your best weapon. It's not polite to call people name's, you idiot!

August 25, 2006, 11:26 AM	#29
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	There are very few calibers and situations that make sense to use FMJ. Unless you are trying to penetrate a barrier or body armor, you're better off with a JHP. Not many home intruders where body armor. Not many self defense scenarios involve shooting through a vehicle's door. Even in the slow moving .45 ACP you can still profit from a properly loaded JHP. I do understand that "tons" of people do it; but that doesn't make it the best option either. I'd be really interested in hearing the "plethora of reasons" for an FMJ versus a modern, reliable JHP such as a Hydra-Shok, Hornady TAP, etc. __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

August 25, 2006, 02:28 PM	#39
stephen426 Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2005 Posts: 3,840	For those of you worried about giving away your position, just chuck a flash bang into the room first! I'm not too sure the wife will bee too pleased about all of the broken glass and charred carpet, but the bad guy will most likely have soiled himself and dropped his weapon! One other thing to think about... How many of you practice shooting with one hand. If you use the FBI light technique, keeping the light as far away from your body as possible with your weak hand, you are forced to shoot with an unsupported hand. I don't know how good a shot your are one handed, but I can say my one handed shooting is much worse than my 2 handed shooting. Add stress and adrenaline to the equation and it may equal to a lot of missed shots. Anther techniqe, Harris, a reverse grip on the flash light with the weak hand and the shooting hand supported by the wrist of your weak hand, is similar to having a weapon mounted light. The bad guy can still hit you by shooting at the light. Some support is better than no support, but it is still not as steady as a two naded grip. I think this would make an interesting poll. I'll go set one up. __________________ The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency! Last edited by stephen426; August 25, 2006 at 04:27 PM.

August 27, 2006, 02:17 PM	#40
dfaugh Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 1,715	IMHO, using a light is the same as painting "Target" on yourself. I can navigate my whole house in the dark, quite well, and ambient light is enough to identify my target. Haing a light just screams "Shoot me NOW! Now, if my dogs are raiising Cain at o'dark-thirty in the morning I WOULD use a light for outside my house, so I can see what's going on. __________________ "If you Listen to Fools, the Mob Rules" "No one has the answer, but one thing is true. You'e got to turn on evil, when its coming after you. You've gotta face it down,and when it tries to hide, you've got to go in after it, and never be denied. Time is running out...Let's roll. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for love. We're going after satan, on the wings of a dove. Let's roll for freedom, let's roll for truth. Let's not let our children grow up fearful in their youth."

August 25, 2006, 11:01 AM	#28
v8fbird Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2006 Posts: 140	"Using a cheap flashlight for HD is like using FMJ's in the gun. If you are serious about defending yourself and have the made the choice to keep/carry a weapon; do it the right way, not the cheapest." Uhhh.......TONS of people, me included, use FMJ as their self defense round, for a plethora of reasons.

August 25, 2006, 11:39 AM	#31
v8fbird Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2006 Posts: 140	Run a search, I bet you will find a hundred threads on the best type of self defense ammo. I use it first and foremost because my gun doesn't seem to like HP ammo.

August 25, 2006, 12:08 PM	#33
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	Well...ummm...anyway...I appreciate everyone's time and thoughts regarding TACTICAL LIGHTS mounted on a weapon. Your thoughts have been duly noted and given me a lot to think about. As a side note, I do not have a weapon mounted light and have always subscribed to the "independent light" theory (typically a Streamlight Stinger, although I do have a mammoth Maglight I still use occasionally), however your thoughts and opinions have made me realize that I need to learn more about low/no-light tactics. Thanks again for all the thoughts.

August 25, 2006, 12:11 PM	#34
v8fbird Junior member Join Date: July 6, 2006 Posts: 140	"Better get it worked on or trade it." OR, I could just keep using FMJ for which I have had not a single problem through thousands of rounds....

August 25, 2006, 12:24 PM	#35
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	And I also read, in regards to weapon-mounted tactical lights (not fmj vs jhp), that, of course, you can have more than one source of light. Thus, if you are hell-bent on mounting a light to your weapon, it is also practical to have an independent light as well, so your options are open at all times. Just a thought...

August 25, 2006, 12:30 PM	#36
tydephan Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2006 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 437	An interesting article on low-light tactics by Surefire (imagine that!)... https://www.surefire.com/surefire_in...0flashlight%22 (will require adobe acrobat reader)

August 25, 2006, 12:45 PM	#37
bclark1 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,531	yea i guess i didn't take geography into account - sorry about the overly broad statement. i've always lived in no-carry areas, just moved to ohio where i can, but there laws still seem to be written pretty restrictively and i don't want to take any chances. i think a lot of brandishing goes unreported, and does deter violence, but my point was just that you're not going to draw on somebody 30 yards out who's not intently focused on you. if the red dot's going to make a difference, it's just my opinion that i think the gun itself would be adequately visible and make them rethink their advance whether or not there's a laser on it.