Redding Profile Crimp Die Seats Bullets Deeper

islander · October 14, 2009, 08:27 PM

Loaded a small batch (50) of 38 special today, and found to my surprise the COL was shortened by the Redding Profile Crimp die from 0.005" to 0.008" after the correct COL was set by the seater die.

Why is the crimp die seating bullets deeper? Is it too tight and gripping the bullet? I'll call Redding tech tomorrow but wanted to know if any of you have experienced similar results.

If this is normal then the seater die has to be set to compensate for the crimp die to finish seating the bullet to the correct COL? This can't be right. Any advice will be appreciated.

Farmland · October 14, 2009, 08:46 PM

My guess is your are setting the crimp wrong, maybe too tight. The Profile will provide a tighter and more uniform roll type crimp. The bullet should hold the correct seating depth from the previous seating operation.

Tex S · October 14, 2009, 08:53 PM

I agree with Farmland; sounds like too much crimp.

Your seater die should never have to compensate for your crimp die. The crimp die should never even touch the bullet.

poline · October 14, 2009, 09:23 PM

First off, I'm new at this but, I find that with the Lee Bullet seating die I must first seat all my bullets the correct depth in one step then go back in a second step and crimp. Before crimping in the second step I must back out the bullet seating adjusting screw until I see some threads. This is with lead bullets that have no cannelure. There has been talk of this on this forum before, some say one step, others two. I also find that with FMJ bullets that have a cannelure that if the crimp goes beyond the brass side of the cannelure that I must compensate as you have done.

islander · October 16, 2009, 05:12 PM

The profile crimp die is without any doubt positively shortening the round, and the crimp is "minimal". So is the belling of the case mouth. I have now loaded another lot of 38 spl. with different cases and found the exact same issue, after re-setting the crimp die again for just the slightest roll crimp. I slipped a bullet thought the crimp die - it slid though without any binding, so what the die is doing is compressing the case as it rolls the crimp. No buckling seen, so this is very strange.

I called Redding and their tech guy said "never heard of such a thing". Then, he suggested I could compensate by seating the bullet higher. Hmmm, makes you wonder. He said he would check with his engineers and get back to me. I am not bashing Redding!

So, any of you using the Redding Profile Crimp Die, can you measure the loaded rounds after bullet seating and after crimping and post up your findings?

**Unclenick** · October 16, 2009, 05:42 PM

What shape and diameter are your bullets? Do they have a crimp groove of a cannelure, and if so, does the crimp go into it correctly?

I suppose it is possible that the crimping edge, especially if your bullets are on the wide side, could catch on a push the bullet down by the amount the crimp rolls in? Especially if they are lubricated lead bullets for which it takes but little force to push them in deeper. That is especially true with cases that have been through several reloadings because they tend to spring back out from the sizing die and no longer grip the bullet as tightly as they once did.

islander · October 16, 2009, 06:00 PM

Unclenick the bullets are Hornady XTP, .357", with the crimp within the cannelure band. Cases are on their 2nd reload so they are not tired.

Edit: I just edited the OP as the shortening varies from 0.005" to 0.008"

islander · October 16, 2009, 06:25 PM

You got me thinking about the relationship between the crimp mouth and the cannelure. It just so happens that my 38 special loads (Hodgdon recipe) calls for an OAL of 1.455", which places the case mouth close to the bottom edge of the cannelure groove. Could be the case mouth grabs that edge and pulls it down as the crimp is applied?

Tex S · October 16, 2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

which places the case mouth close to the bottom edge of the cannelure groove. Could be the case mouth grabs that edge and pulls it down as the crimp is applied?

I can see how that could be possible.

Maybe you should try to seat the bullet .010 or .015" deeper and see if you get the same effect.

**Unclenick** · October 16, 2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Islander

Could be the case mouth grabs that edge and pulls it down as the crimp is applied?

That's what I meant in the first sentence of my second paragraph of my last post. Yes. I think that's exactly what's happening now that I know your measurements are 10 times smaller than you gave before you edited the OP. I though it was odd that it could be that big? But the reality is less than a hundredth of an inch. If you measure match rifle bullets you'll see that much difference in length from bullet to bullet. It's not enough to affect pressures significantly, nor accuracy. You can just ignore it. If it nags at the back of your mind, back your seater out 0.0065" (the midpoint between the two distances) and start your crimp with them out there. They will land plus or minus 0.0015" of your nominal COL after that.

All that matters to your revolver is that the bullets not be out so far they stick out of the cylinder, and not be in so far that they raise pressure. I don't think you'll have either problem with that setup.

islander · October 16, 2009, 09:15 PM

Yes that's what I had to do to load the batch - I compensated by backing the seater plug, and I was able to hit the desired OAL on the nose. But it came as a surprise to me, and others apparently, from the replies here - just something else to ponder and deal with. I don't know how you guys with those big progressive presses can sleep at night.

Thanks for the dose of reality, I also believe the issue is negligible, particulalry since these are very light loads (4.3 gr. of Win 231). But I am surprised to learn that match rifle bullets can vary that much, I thought this was the realm of the micro-anal perfectionists!

**Unclenick** · October 17, 2009, 04:04 PM

What gets the match bullets off is the extra metal left over on the tips of the hollow points after they are formed. You can buy meplat trimmers to uniform them, and apparently that uniforms the ballistic coefficient, too, and can knock almost 1/2 moa off vertical stringing at 1000 yards. You don't see much difference out to 300, though.

islander · October 21, 2009, 12:19 PM

Received a call back from Redding tech, their engineer is aware of this issue and it is "normal" - the Redding Profile Crimp Die WILL SEAT THE BULLET DEEPER.

How much will depend on individual factors such as type of bullet, level of crimp, cannelure, etc. In my specific case 38 spl light crimp seated the bullet between 0.005" to 0.008", negligible perhaps but something to be aware of.

longranger · October 21, 2009, 06:03 PM

Try seating and crimping in two separate operations. Seat bullets to desired depth retract the seater plug then adjust die to desired crimp.
Better accuracy will be had and is worth the extra step, this is very true with cast bullets.

islander · October 21, 2009, 08:38 PM

Longranger thanks for that good advice, the Redding die is only for crimping as a separate, last step in the reloading process.

October 14, 2009, 08:27 PM	#1
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	Redding Profile Crimp Die Seats Bullets Deeper Loaded a small batch (50) of 38 special today, and found to my surprise the COL was shortened by the Redding Profile Crimp die from 0.005" to 0.008" after the correct COL was set by the seater die. Why is the crimp die seating bullets deeper? Is it too tight and gripping the bullet? I'll call Redding tech tomorrow but wanted to know if any of you have experienced similar results. If this is normal then the seater die has to be set to compensate for the crimp die to finish seating the bullet to the correct COL? This can't be right. Any advice will be appreciated. Last edited by islander; October 16, 2009 at 06:01 PM.

October 14, 2009, 09:23 PM	#4
poline Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2009 Location: Richmond,Va Posts: 292	Bullets Deeper? First off, I'm new at this but, I find that with the Lee Bullet seating die I must first seat all my bullets the correct depth in one step then go back in a second step and crimp. Before crimping in the second step I must back out the bullet seating adjusting screw until I see some threads. This is with lead bullets that have no cannelure. There has been talk of this on this forum before, some say one step, others two. I also find that with FMJ bullets that have a cannelure that if the crimp goes beyond the brass side of the cannelure that I must compensate as you have done.

October 16, 2009, 05:42 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	What shape and diameter are your bullets? Do they have a crimp groove of a cannelure, and if so, does the crimp go into it correctly? I suppose it is possible that the crimping edge, especially if your bullets are on the wide side, could catch on a push the bullet down by the amount the crimp rolls in? Especially if they are lubricated lead bullets for which it takes but little force to push them in deeper. That is especially true with cases that have been through several reloadings because they tend to spring back out from the sizing die and no longer grip the bullet as tightly as they once did. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 17, 2009, 04:04 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	What gets the match bullets off is the extra metal left over on the tips of the hollow points after they are formed. You can buy meplat trimmers to uniform them, and apparently that uniforms the ballistic coefficient, too, and can knock almost 1/2 moa off vertical stringing at 1000 yards. You don't see much difference out to 300, though. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 14, 2009, 08:46 PM	#2
Farmland Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2009 Posts: 869	My guess is your are setting the crimp wrong, maybe too tight. The Profile will provide a tighter and more uniform roll type crimp. The bullet should hold the correct seating depth from the previous seating operation.

October 14, 2009, 08:53 PM	#3
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	I agree with Farmland; sounds like too much crimp. Your seater die should never have to compensate for your crimp die. The crimp die should never even touch the bullet.

October 16, 2009, 05:12 PM	#5
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	The profile crimp die is without any doubt positively shortening the round, and the crimp is "minimal". So is the belling of the case mouth. I have now loaded another lot of 38 spl. with different cases and found the exact same issue, after re-setting the crimp die again for just the slightest roll crimp. I slipped a bullet thought the crimp die - it slid though without any binding, so what the die is doing is compressing the case as it rolls the crimp. No buckling seen, so this is very strange. I called Redding and their tech guy said "never heard of such a thing". Then, he suggested I could compensate by seating the bullet higher. Hmmm, makes you wonder. He said he would check with his engineers and get back to me. I am not bashing Redding! So, any of you using the Redding Profile Crimp Die, can you measure the loaded rounds after bullet seating and after crimping and post up your findings?

October 16, 2009, 06:00 PM	#7
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	Unclenick the bullets are Hornady XTP, .357", with the crimp within the cannelure band. Cases are on their 2nd reload so they are not tired. Edit: I just edited the OP as the shortening varies from 0.005" to 0.008"

October 16, 2009, 06:25 PM	#8
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	You got me thinking about the relationship between the crimp mouth and the cannelure. It just so happens that my 38 special loads (Hodgdon recipe) calls for an OAL of 1.455", which places the case mouth close to the bottom edge of the cannelure groove. Could be the case mouth grabs that edge and pulls it down as the crimp is applied?

October 16, 2009, 09:15 PM	#11
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	Yes that's what I had to do to load the batch - I compensated by backing the seater plug, and I was able to hit the desired OAL on the nose. But it came as a surprise to me, and others apparently, from the replies here - just something else to ponder and deal with. I don't know how you guys with those big progressive presses can sleep at night. Thanks for the dose of reality, I also believe the issue is negligible, particulalry since these are very light loads (4.3 gr. of Win 231). But I am surprised to learn that match rifle bullets can vary that much, I thought this was the realm of the micro-anal perfectionists!

October 21, 2009, 12:19 PM	#13
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	Received a call back from Redding tech, their engineer is aware of this issue and it is "normal" - the Redding Profile Crimp Die WILL SEAT THE BULLET DEEPER. How much will depend on individual factors such as type of bullet, level of crimp, cannelure, etc. In my specific case 38 spl light crimp seated the bullet between 0.005" to 0.008", negligible perhaps but something to be aware of.

October 21, 2009, 06:03 PM	#14
longranger Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2008 Location: Buffalo WY Posts: 1,056	Try seating and crimping in two separate operations. Seat bullets to desired depth retract the seater plug then adjust die to desired crimp. Better accuracy will be had and is worth the extra step, this is very true with cast bullets.

October 21, 2009, 08:38 PM	#15
islander Member Join Date: July 30, 2009 Posts: 42	Longranger thanks for that good advice, the Redding die is only for crimping as a separate, last step in the reloading process.