Spinning swamp bunnies!

DOCSpanky · March 10, 2000, 11:24 AM

I bagged a vermin last night with the most impressive result I have seen in a long time. I used my Marlin 25MN with a 4X32 scope on a swamp rabbit at about 75 yards. It was the most impressive thing I have ever seen. I ordered a box of the Remington poly-tipped 33gr. form outland sales as they are very hard to come by, and what happened on impact was dumbfounding. The rabbit had sat back onto his haunches and the round caught him between his left front leg and ribcage, it lifted him I can only guess about a foot in the air and spun him helicopter fashion aboout 2 1/4 rotations in the air! I desperately try to avoid any and all profanity in posting, but I have to let a little one slip here so moderator please for give me.... all I could think on impact was....

DAMN!

I am now convinced in the 22WMR! With the right load it is highly accurate, and stopping power on small to midsize game is irrefutable!

------------------
DOCSpanky HM3 USN
Happiness is a smoking gun and a dead criminal

[This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).]

Al Thompson · March 10, 2000, 01:17 PM

That's a big Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Hate to throw cold water on your opinion, but shoot a few more and see if those results hold true. I popped a Texas cottontail with a .22 three times before he had the decency to keel over. Good shots, just no reaction. If I used that incident as an example, I'd never hunt bunnies with a .22 again.

But your results sound very encouraging!

Giz

Yellowdog · March 10, 2000, 02:29 PM

Gizmo:

I'm shocked that a TX cottontail would have no reaction to a .22. Were you using hollowpoints? I've shot my fair share of small game using both .22 hollowpoints and solids. The solids are pretty mediocre and could result in what you described but I've never had anything but quick kills with hollowpoints. Maybe Texas rabbits are bigger... As far as the .22 WMR doing that to a swamp bunny, I have no doubt that its an efficient killer but I've seen similar results on rabits using just plain .22 LR hollowpoints. I think these gyrations come from the rabbit's reaction to being hit vs. the power of the cartridge to actually spin him around.

DOCSpanky · March 10, 2000, 05:29 PM

I've had them sitting low and just get knocked over before as well, but as I was saying this was a .22 WMR clocking around 2000fps and at only 75 yards. The bunny was also sitting very high on his back haunches. I was truely inpressed. I have seen this happen with CCI Mini-Mags on squirrels, but this was a bonified 3-4lb. (rough guess) bunny.

------------------
I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

[This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).]

Al Thompson · March 10, 2000, 05:41 PM

Yellowdog - I used Winchester HPs out of a Beretta. I was hunting doves and got tired of picking # 8 shot out of my bunnies. The range was very close (10 yards) and he jumped at each shot, but didn't flop until the third. I do not think that the HPs were expanding. (stingers were brand new in the area and my pistol was not zero'ed with'em) Interestingly enough, I killed several more with that gun/ammo combination and it worked fine. Just that one time nobody clued the wabbit in on what his role in the plan was.

I did change to a .38 with 148 grain wadcutters as it worked way better for small game. Spun them sideways when it hit!

Giz

Art Eatman · March 10, 2000, 10:25 PM

Bullets and bunnies make for strange activities. I shot a jackrabbit cross-body through the ribs with a .45, 230-grain Hornady flat point; he just sorta hunched up and looked sad. Sort of a, "Now, why did you go and do that?"

A max load 80-grain or 110-grain out of an '06 is a whole 'nother story. This is not what you'd call a "meat for the pot" activity.

But .22 hollow-points are good supper-getters on bunnies...

, Art

muleshoe · March 11, 2000, 09:00 AM

Bunnies do have an instinctive reflex when they come into contact with any bullet. I've had big jacks do double back-flips when hit with a SuperX lead head.

------------------
bullet placement is gun control

Hueco · March 11, 2000, 01:42 PM

I have been seriously curious about the actual performance of this round too. So hopefully, when the weather warms up and dries out -- I will do some very simple terminal ballistics testing. I plan on using wet newspaper for penetration tests at different yrardage, and wet sand in gallon milk-jugs. How many jugs will I need to line up to make sure I "catch" the bullet? For all tests I'll be shooting at 50, 75, 100, and 125 yards. Here's what I have in mind:

Weight retention in sand/paper.
Penetration in sand/paper.
Expansion in sand/paper.

I will use as many different weights and styles that I can buy around here. Mostly, it will be Maxi-mag HPs, Winchester FMJs, and those 33 gr. Remington poly-tips. I'll see if I cant dig up some +V stuff soemwhere too. So, again, how many jugs-in-a-row at those distances, and how many inches (or feet?) of soaked-newspaper will I need at the same distances? After I do the tests, and get the info organized -- I will post it here!

Hueco

Al Thompson · March 11, 2000, 01:59 PM

The best and cheapest medium I've used is water logged newspapers. The last time I did an experiment with it, I had three 230 grain Hydra-Shoks that were recovered from a deer.

I loaded a green garbage bag full of newspapers (if you piled them up they were about 4 feet tall) and flooded the bag with a garden hose. Left'em for a week and kept an eye on the water level. They would "mush" if you rubbed a peice between your fingers.

I then tested the 230 H-S out of a GM and got the same expansion characteristics. I am sure that the depth of penetration was not the same, but I measured it with a dowel to give me a baseline. The bullets had stopped in a deers chest (10 inches or so) and penetrated the newspapers "X" amount. (don't remember the exacts) This gave me a pretty good feel for a penetration ratio.

No big surprises in testing the .45 loads - clothing would flat plug up a H-S though. Carry load was changed to Golden Sabers.

I think you could get a pretty good feeling for what your chosen loads will do if you have something to compare them with. I would suggest figuring out what a given load will do to your chosen target and using that load as a "proof" load. Use that data to figure out what results your medium will give you with other loads.

I have also seen interesting results using a Fackler box. This is a series of one gallon freezer bags filled with water and supported in a rack. Once again, the exacts aren't going to translate to flesh, but it gives you a ratio and standard to compare with your "proof" load. And it's fairly cheap!

Let me know if you'd like me to dig around for a good URL for a Fackler box.

Giz

gunmart · March 11, 2000, 07:58 PM

22 fans should try out the new 60 gr from agulia from mexico.wow this stuff is hot.

Hueco · March 13, 2000, 10:55 AM

Ok, so there are super-heavy bullets for a 22 LR -- knew about those...have yet to try any though. But are there any 22 WMR super-heavies?? What would be great is a really heavy bullet (heavy enough to be sub-sonic). This way, you would have the extra power downrange, but without the noise. Well...in theory at least. Initially, the energy/velocity would be lower, but far downrange (say about 80-120 yards), there would be more retained velocity and energy than a normal 40 gr. load. Right? Or is that not true?

Hueco

DOCSpanky · March 13, 2000, 11:07 AM

FEDEARL loads a 50 grain JHP but it is still sonic at 1650fps/300 ftlbs at the muzzle.
OUTLADSALES advertises a Subsonic 45 grain JHP that goes at 1000fps/100ftlbs at the muzzle. A local gunsmith said it may not however function properly in some autos.

------------------
I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

Hueco · March 13, 2000, 01:40 PM

Well, at least there does exist a subsonic load. But you lose energy with it because it is just a loaded-down standard-bullet-load. With the load I was talking about, terminal energy would actually be greater than normal supersonic loads. There would be about the same amount of powder (some due to volume loss), but a heavy bullet would keep it sub-sonic. It wouldn't be loaded down any, just be loaded with a heavy bullet. I'll have to see if I can't find and try some of those loads you mentioned DOCSpanky. Thanks!

Hueco

Duhh, I feel stupid now. I aksed why there does not exist a heavy-bullet load for the 22 WMR like there does for the 22 LR. Well that Aguila 60 gr. LR load uses a 22 *Short* case! In order to not have the bullet seated to deeply in a heavy-bullet load for the WMR, you'd have to use a shorter case like Aguila does. Well...there doesn't exist one! The WMR case has a larger outer diameter than the LR case. That's why you absolutely cannot load a WMR into a LR rifle and vice-versa. Anyway, in order to have a heavy bullet in a WMR, each individual case would have to be trimmed down. That is probably not cost-realistic. Rounds would just be to expensive.

On a different note, I was thinking about a new load altogether. It would be a necked down 22 WMR to 17 calibre. Same case -- different calibre and bullet (maybe a 20 gr.?). This would be perfect for furbearer hunters at closer ranges. Plus, would the cartridge just look great?!

[This message has been edited by Hueco (edited March 13, 2000).]

dehar · March 13, 2000, 05:25 PM

back to the bunny issue I once shot a large jackrabbit with a 300 weatherby hehe all that was left was skin I couldnt find anything else "vaporized"

DOCSpanky · March 14, 2000, 07:45 AM

OUCH!!!!

------------------
I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

jtduncan · September 6, 2000, 07:26 PM

So what is the best firearm to hunt bunnies with?

I've got a Rem 870, a .22lr Marlin rifle, and a .22lr conversion kit for my Glock to handgun hunt small game with.

Rifle or handgun for mister bunny?

------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG

Al Thompson · September 6, 2000, 08:02 PM

Depends on what you want to do. For meat, the 870 probably gets the nod, for good practice, either the rifle or pistol will work.

Lots of variables - is the area safe for a bullet? Then the .22s are fine. The pistol will require better marksmanship as the velocity is pretty low. Clean kills are the goal, practice is very secondary.

Giz

BadMedicine · September 6, 2000, 08:12 PM

Gizmo, you think the .22 is to small for rabbits? That's all we ussually use, (except the occasional 20 ga. for busting brush) And I've never had a problem with a quick kill, when they were hit good. Yeah, I've hit a few too far back and had to follow up with the other 11 that sit in my clip, but generally a head shot or through the shoulders drops them. When I was about 6 and my brother 8 we had single shot .22 rifles, we were new at hunting, and we would drive this road up in fairbanks in the afternoon. The snowshoe hairs (BIG BUNNIES) would sit on this ridge about 15 yrds from the road sunning themselves. We'd get out, lay on the burm at the side of the road and shoot them right in the nose. We didn't use CCI's or hollow points, just regular solid $1. a box .22's and those rabbits would absolutly flip backwards. I think a rabbits last nerve twitch is to straiten it's back legs, maybe in an attempt to gain that last bit of cover, or whereever it's trying to go. Snow-shoes are so fun too hunt, because in the spring the snow melts, and they're still white. They think they're camoflauge still, like they are 90% of the year, so they don't run. We get alot in the spring, and that means a special dinner, Snow-Shoe-'chaladas

March 10, 2000, 11:24 AM	#1
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	I bagged a vermin last night with the most impressive result I have seen in a long time. I used my Marlin 25MN with a 4X32 scope on a swamp rabbit at about 75 yards. It was the most impressive thing I have ever seen. I ordered a box of the Remington poly-tipped 33gr. form outland sales as they are very hard to come by, and what happened on impact was dumbfounding. The rabbit had sat back onto his haunches and the round caught him between his left front leg and ribcage, it lifted him I can only guess about a foot in the air and spun him helicopter fashion aboout 2 1/4 rotations in the air! I desperately try to avoid any and all profanity in posting, but I have to let a little one slip here so moderator please for give me.... all I could think on impact was.... DAMN! I am now convinced in the 22WMR! With the right load it is highly accurate, and stopping power on small to midsize game is irrefutable! ------------------ DOCSpanky HM3 USN Happiness is a smoking gun and a dead criminal [This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).] [This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).]

March 10, 2000, 01:17 PM	#2
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	That's a big Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Hate to throw cold water on your opinion, but shoot a few more and see if those results hold true. I popped a Texas cottontail with a .22 three times before he had the decency to keel over. Good shots, just no reaction. If I used that incident as an example, I'd never hunt bunnies with a .22 again. But your results sound very encouraging! Giz

March 10, 2000, 02:29 PM	#3
Yellowdog Member Join Date: December 14, 1999 Location: Northridge, California Posts: 24	Gizmo: I'm shocked that a TX cottontail would have no reaction to a .22. Were you using hollowpoints? I've shot my fair share of small game using both .22 hollowpoints and solids. The solids are pretty mediocre and could result in what you described but I've never had anything but quick kills with hollowpoints. Maybe Texas rabbits are bigger... As far as the .22 WMR doing that to a swamp bunny, I have no doubt that its an efficient killer but I've seen similar results on rabits using just plain .22 LR hollowpoints. I think these gyrations come from the rabbit's reaction to being hit vs. the power of the cartridge to actually spin him around.

March 10, 2000, 05:29 PM	#4
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	I've had them sitting low and just get knocked over before as well, but as I was saying this was a .22 WMR clocking around 2000fps and at only 75 yards. The bunny was also sitting very high on his back haunches. I was truely inpressed. I have seen this happen with CCI Mini-Mags on squirrels, but this was a bonified 3-4lb. (rough guess) bunny. ------------------ I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air! [This message has been edited by DOCSpanky (edited March 10, 2000).]

March 10, 2000, 05:41 PM	#5
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Yellowdog - I used Winchester HPs out of a Beretta. I was hunting doves and got tired of picking # 8 shot out of my bunnies. The range was very close (10 yards) and he jumped at each shot, but didn't flop until the third. I do not think that the HPs were expanding. (stingers were brand new in the area and my pistol was not zero'ed with'em) Interestingly enough, I killed several more with that gun/ammo combination and it worked fine. Just that one time nobody clued the wabbit in on what his role in the plan was. I did change to a .38 with 148 grain wadcutters as it worked way better for small game. Spun them sideways when it hit! Giz

March 10, 2000, 10:25 PM	#6
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Bullets and bunnies make for strange activities. I shot a jackrabbit cross-body through the ribs with a .45, 230-grain Hornady flat point; he just sorta hunched up and looked sad. Sort of a, "Now, why did you go and do that?" A max load 80-grain or 110-grain out of an '06 is a whole 'nother story. This is not what you'd call a "meat for the pot" activity. But .22 hollow-points are good supper-getters on bunnies... , Art

March 11, 2000, 09:00 AM	#7
muleshoe Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2000 Location: Mills County, IA Posts: 410	Bunnies do have an instinctive reflex when they come into contact with any bullet. I've had big jacks do double back-flips when hit with a SuperX lead head. ------------------ bullet placement is gun control

March 11, 2000, 01:42 PM	#8
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	I have been seriously curious about the actual performance of this round too. So hopefully, when the weather warms up and dries out -- I will do some very simple terminal ballistics testing. I plan on using wet newspaper for penetration tests at different yrardage, and wet sand in gallon milk-jugs. How many jugs will I need to line up to make sure I "catch" the bullet? For all tests I'll be shooting at 50, 75, 100, and 125 yards. Here's what I have in mind: Weight retention in sand/paper. Penetration in sand/paper. Expansion in sand/paper. I will use as many different weights and styles that I can buy around here. Mostly, it will be Maxi-mag HPs, Winchester FMJs, and those 33 gr. Remington poly-tips. I'll see if I cant dig up some +V stuff soemwhere too. So, again, how many jugs-in-a-row at those distances, and how many inches (or feet?) of soaked-newspaper will I need at the same distances? After I do the tests, and get the info organized -- I will post it here! Hueco

March 11, 2000, 01:59 PM	#9
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	The best and cheapest medium I've used is water logged newspapers. The last time I did an experiment with it, I had three 230 grain Hydra-Shoks that were recovered from a deer. I loaded a green garbage bag full of newspapers (if you piled them up they were about 4 feet tall) and flooded the bag with a garden hose. Left'em for a week and kept an eye on the water level. They would "mush" if you rubbed a peice between your fingers. I then tested the 230 H-S out of a GM and got the same expansion characteristics. I am sure that the depth of penetration was not the same, but I measured it with a dowel to give me a baseline. The bullets had stopped in a deers chest (10 inches or so) and penetrated the newspapers "X" amount. (don't remember the exacts) This gave me a pretty good feel for a penetration ratio. No big surprises in testing the .45 loads - clothing would flat plug up a H-S though. Carry load was changed to Golden Sabers. I think you could get a pretty good feeling for what your chosen loads will do if you have something to compare them with. I would suggest figuring out what a given load will do to your chosen target and using that load as a "proof" load. Use that data to figure out what results your medium will give you with other loads. I have also seen interesting results using a Fackler box. This is a series of one gallon freezer bags filled with water and supported in a rack. Once again, the exacts aren't going to translate to flesh, but it gives you a ratio and standard to compare with your "proof" load. And it's fairly cheap! Let me know if you'd like me to dig around for a good URL for a Fackler box. Giz

March 11, 2000, 07:58 PM	#10
gunmart Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2000 Posts: 551	22 fans should try out the new 60 gr from agulia from mexico.wow this stuff is hot.

March 13, 2000, 10:55 AM	#11
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	Ok, so there are super-heavy bullets for a 22 LR -- knew about those...have yet to try any though. But are there any 22 WMR super-heavies?? What would be great is a really heavy bullet (heavy enough to be sub-sonic). This way, you would have the extra power downrange, but without the noise. Well...in theory at least. Initially, the energy/velocity would be lower, but far downrange (say about 80-120 yards), there would be more retained velocity and energy than a normal 40 gr. load. Right? Or is that not true? Hueco

March 13, 2000, 11:07 AM	#12
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	FEDEARL loads a 50 grain JHP but it is still sonic at 1650fps/300 ftlbs at the muzzle. OUTLADSALES advertises a Subsonic 45 grain JHP that goes at 1000fps/100ftlbs at the muzzle. A local gunsmith said it may not however function properly in some autos. ------------------ I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

March 13, 2000, 01:40 PM	#13
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	Well, at least there does exist a subsonic load. But you lose energy with it because it is just a loaded-down standard-bullet-load. With the load I was talking about, terminal energy would actually be greater than normal supersonic loads. There would be about the same amount of powder (some due to volume loss), but a heavy bullet would keep it sub-sonic. It wouldn't be loaded down any, just be loaded with a heavy bullet. I'll have to see if I can't find and try some of those loads you mentioned DOCSpanky. Thanks! Hueco Duhh, I feel stupid now. I aksed why there does not exist a heavy-bullet load for the 22 WMR like there does for the 22 LR. Well that Aguila 60 gr. LR load uses a 22 Short case! In order to not have the bullet seated to deeply in a heavy-bullet load for the WMR, you'd have to use a shorter case like Aguila does. Well...there doesn't exist one! The WMR case has a larger outer diameter than the LR case. That's why you absolutely cannot load a WMR into a LR rifle and vice-versa. Anyway, in order to have a heavy bullet in a WMR, each individual case would have to be trimmed down. That is probably not cost-realistic. Rounds would just be to expensive. On a different note, I was thinking about a new load altogether. It would be a necked down 22 WMR to 17 calibre. Same case -- different calibre and bullet (maybe a 20 gr.?). This would be perfect for furbearer hunters at closer ranges. Plus, would the cartridge just look great?! [This message has been edited by Hueco (edited March 13, 2000).]

March 13, 2000, 05:25 PM	#14
dehar Junior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: bend,or,usa Posts: 11	back to the bunny issue I once shot a large jackrabbit with a 300 weatherby hehe all that was left was skin I couldnt find anything else "vaporized"

March 14, 2000, 07:45 AM	#15
DOCSpanky Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 1999 Location: Ashland City, TN Posts: 779	OUCH!!!! ------------------ I thought I'd seen it all, until a 22WMR spun a bunny 2 1/4 times in the air!

September 6, 2000, 07:26 PM	#16
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	So what is the best firearm to hunt bunnies with? I've got a Rem 870, a .22lr Marlin rifle, and a .22lr conversion kit for my Glock to handgun hunt small game with. Rifle or handgun for mister bunny? ------------------ *The Seattle SharpShooter* - TFL/GT/UGW/PCT/KTOG

September 6, 2000, 08:02 PM	#17
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Depends on what you want to do. For meat, the 870 probably gets the nod, for good practice, either the rifle or pistol will work. Lots of variables - is the area safe for a bullet? Then the .22s are fine. The pistol will require better marksmanship as the velocity is pretty low. Clean kills are the goal, practice is very secondary. Giz

September 6, 2000, 08:12 PM	#18
BadMedicine Junior member Join Date: July 7, 2000 Location: Anchorage Posts: 863	Gizmo, you think the .22 is to small for rabbits? That's all we ussually use, (except the occasional 20 ga. for busting brush) And I've never had a problem with a quick kill, when they were hit good. Yeah, I've hit a few too far back and had to follow up with the other 11 that sit in my clip, but generally a head shot or through the shoulders drops them. When I was about 6 and my brother 8 we had single shot .22 rifles, we were new at hunting, and we would drive this road up in fairbanks in the afternoon. The snowshoe hairs (BIG BUNNIES) would sit on this ridge about 15 yrds from the road sunning themselves. We'd get out, lay on the burm at the side of the road and shoot them right in the nose. We didn't use CCI's or hollow points, just regular solid $1. a box .22's and those rabbits would absolutly flip backwards. I think a rabbits last nerve twitch is to straiten it's back legs, maybe in an attempt to gain that last bit of cover, or whereever it's trying to go. Snow-shoes are so fun too hunt, because in the spring the snow melts, and they're still white. They think they're camoflauge still, like they are 90% of the year, so they don't run. We get alot in the spring, and that means a special dinner, Snow-Shoe-'chaladas