Evan Marshall's One Shot Stop Data - Page 4

Para Bellum · October 8, 2006, 12:29 PM

"Socrates",

Quote:

PB:
So, you don't much care if I shoot you with a 22lr with a cz 452, or, a 500 NE?

If I miss a bit with the 22lr, it's going to have the same effect as a slight miss with a 500 NE??

Sorry, but you are ...

The ... you posted, is the usual gross over simplification, without knowing that many factors affect bullet effect.

I,by the way, shoot 45 Super, so, telling me the limits of the 45ACP, at max, or more pressures, is certainly entertaining...

Keep up the bad work, I need more laughs...
S

you are entertaining indeed. But please change your nickname. It doesn't fit.

Quote:

So, you don't much care if I shoot you with a 22lr with a cz 452, or, a 500 NE?

That's right. If you and a gun could make me worry at all, I'd worry about where you hit, not what you wave with.
I wish all my conterparts were of your "caliber".
with a hug and a kis...

JR47 · October 8, 2006, 12:51 PM

There goes the thread. Gentlemen, personal attacks aren't allowed. If anyone is going to gain from this discussion, it needs to proceed without the nascent peeing contest.

tipoc · October 8, 2006, 02:12 PM

Socrates, et. al.,

It is an old debate. Small and fast vs. slow and heavy. Hollowpoints vs.ball (or solids). Old African guides showing that the 7mm Mauser would take any game on the African continant from water buffalo to elephant while others swore that the .375 with a solid bullet was the only thing to go with, etc.

Keith vs. O'Conner. 9mm vs. the .45. The OSS debate has been around since the articles were first published.

In one form or another the .45 Super has been around since 1988 and is a seperate cartridge from the .45 acp.

The only "new" thing here is that for the last 10 years reliably expanding hps at lower velocities are more available.

I can't find anything new or original in this long thread. But it's useful to some point for those that aren't aware it's an old debate and are reading some of this for the first time.

Folks should read Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner, etc.

tipoc

tipoc · October 8, 2006, 02:23 PM

Some folks would like the assurance that there is somewhere out there a premier handgun round that is a guaranteed stopper. A belief of some is that if there were enough studies one or another round and/or bullet load combination could be proven to be "the best".

That can't happen. Many tests have been done that show penetration and expansion of various bullet /load combinations in various media including animal and human flesh(the latter being morgue reports and emergency room reports).
You look at this and choose the load that you favor and bullet type that works well in your piece.

These tests can't tell you how the shooter and the shootee react to an actual shooting. The round you favor in a gun you can handle. Shot placement trunps all.

tipoc

Desertscout1 · October 8, 2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

It is an old debate. Small and fast vs. slow and heavy. Hollowpoints vs.ball (or solids). Old African guides showing that the 7mm Mauser would take any game on the African continant from water buffalo to elephant while others swore that the .375 with a solid bullet was the only thing to go with, etc..............

Folks should read Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner, etc.

This is the most reasonable and sensible post in this thread so far. As I said before, these "stopping power" debates are quite amusing.

I've seen the lowly .22 kill an 1100 pound pig in one shot and I have twice seen the mighty .45 leave a man standing after multiple hits with premium HP ammo. We had a guy here that caught one errant 9mm BALL bullet and didn't live long enough to park his truck. Our city PD shot a guy a couple months ago 3 times COM with a .357 SIG and he didn't stop his aggression. A girl caught one stray pellet of birdshot in her back and she died at the scene.

That doesn't make the .22 a reliable pig stopper or the .45 a miserable failure but to continue these debates is rather pointless. There are attributes and liabilities to every single caliber on the market but none of them will work very well if they're not placed properly.

JR47 · October 8, 2006, 03:24 PM

[QUOTE]I've seen the lowly .22 kill an 1100 pound pig in one shot and I have twice seen the mighty .45 leave a man standing after multiple hits with premium HP ammo. We had a guy here that caught one errant 9mm BALL bullet and didn't live long enough to park his truck. Our city PD shot a guy a couple months ago 3 times COM with a .357 SIG and he didn't stop his aggression. A girl caught one stray pellet of birdshot in her back and she died at the scene.
[QUOTE]

I'm guessing that the point of the whole conversation is that some calibers are a little bit more forgiving of what and where constitutes a lethal zone for the hit. COM guarantees little in the way of immediately stopping aggression. That the hit may prove lethal will be poor consolation for the fact that the dying person took you with him.

Nowhere in this lengthy thread, or any other one like it, have I ever heard anyone told that one-shot stops mean you shoot once, and wait for the recipient to lay down. You shoot until the threat has been removed. Stories about bullet sponges, or near-miss stops, are just that. You cannot expect that you'll ever face either, you just shoot until they quit.

Some people here have settled on a caliber and load that they like. That's great, for them. I have little respect for the 147 gr. 9mm, trundling along at .38 Special +P velocities. I've seen it fail on several scenes. I like the .40 S&W in the full-power 165 gr. load, as I've seen that halt attacks with less than perfect placement. I also like the 230 gr. Federal HydraShok in .45 ACP. There are a lot of good calibers and rounds, but some require better shot placement than others. I'm not impressed with killing as much as I am with an immediate cessation of hostilities. If the bad guy isn't trying to hurt me, I could care less if he's dead or alive.

chrisandclauida2 · October 9, 2006, 06:23 PM

this horse is gone all y'all are doing is sucking on the bones. let it go. friends and families have been destroyed over such discussions

**Bud Helms** · October 9, 2006, 06:32 PM

Yup. Personal attacks and some posts that got edited before I got here. Good thing.

Closed.

October 8, 2006, 12:51 PM	#77
JR47 Junior member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,228	There goes the thread. Gentlemen, personal attacks aren't allowed. If anyone is going to gain from this discussion, it needs to proceed without the nascent peeing contest.

October 8, 2006, 02:12 PM	#78
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Socrates, et. al., It is an old debate. Small and fast vs. slow and heavy. Hollowpoints vs.ball (or solids). Old African guides showing that the 7mm Mauser would take any game on the African continant from water buffalo to elephant while others swore that the .375 with a solid bullet was the only thing to go with, etc. Keith vs. O'Conner. 9mm vs. the .45. The OSS debate has been around since the articles were first published. In one form or another the .45 Super has been around since 1988 and is a seperate cartridge from the .45 acp. The only "new" thing here is that for the last 10 years reliably expanding hps at lower velocities are more available. I can't find anything new or original in this long thread. But it's useful to some point for those that aren't aware it's an old debate and are reading some of this for the first time. Folks should read Elmer Keith and Jack O'Conner, etc. tipoc

October 8, 2006, 02:23 PM	#79
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	Some folks would like the assurance that there is somewhere out there a premier handgun round that is a guaranteed stopper. A belief of some is that if there were enough studies one or another round and/or bullet load combination could be proven to be "the best". That can't happen. Many tests have been done that show penetration and expansion of various bullet /load combinations in various media including animal and human flesh(the latter being morgue reports and emergency room reports). You look at this and choose the load that you favor and bullet type that works well in your piece. These tests can't tell you how the shooter and the shootee react to an actual shooting. The round you favor in a gun you can handle. Shot placement trunps all. tipoc

October 8, 2006, 03:24 PM	#81
JR47 Junior member Join Date: August 9, 2005 Location: North Georgia Posts: 2,228	[QUOTE]I've seen the lowly .22 kill an 1100 pound pig in one shot and I have twice seen the mighty .45 leave a man standing after multiple hits with premium HP ammo. We had a guy here that caught one errant 9mm BALL bullet and didn't live long enough to park his truck. Our city PD shot a guy a couple months ago 3 times COM with a .357 SIG and he didn't stop his aggression. A girl caught one stray pellet of birdshot in her back and she died at the scene. [QUOTE] I'm guessing that the point of the whole conversation is that some calibers are a little bit more forgiving of what and where constitutes a lethal zone for the hit. COM guarantees little in the way of immediately stopping aggression. That the hit may prove lethal will be poor consolation for the fact that the dying person took you with him. Nowhere in this lengthy thread, or any other one like it, have I ever heard anyone told that one-shot stops mean you shoot once, and wait for the recipient to lay down. You shoot until the threat has been removed. Stories about bullet sponges, or near-miss stops, are just that. You cannot expect that you'll ever face either, you just shoot until they quit. Some people here have settled on a caliber and load that they like. That's great, for them. I have little respect for the 147 gr. 9mm, trundling along at .38 Special +P velocities. I've seen it fail on several scenes. I like the .40 S&W in the full-power 165 gr. load, as I've seen that halt attacks with less than perfect placement. I also like the 230 gr. Federal HydraShok in .45 ACP. There are a lot of good calibers and rounds, but some require better shot placement than others. I'm not impressed with killing as much as I am with an immediate cessation of hostilities. If the bad guy isn't trying to hurt me, I could care less if he's dead or alive.

October 9, 2006, 06:23 PM	#82
chrisandclauida2 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2005 Posts: 312	this horse is gone all y'all are doing is sucking on the bones. let it go. friends and families have been destroyed over such discussions

October 9, 2006, 06:32 PM	#83
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Yup. Personal attacks and some posts that got edited before I got here. Good thing. Closed.