Trouble with .45acp handloads Help

[cybor462]

Hi

Well although I have handloaded for 30 years the statement of age and memory loss could not have been more precise in my case. That is a pun, CASE such as 45acp case.

Ok I am sorry down to business. I am loading .45acp 230 gn rn hornady heads and speer and also raineer heads and I have been having trouble. The reason I have tried several is that I am trying to find my cause of head cocking.

Of course when the head cocks it causes one side of the case to bulge and then I have chambering issues.

Here is what I have....

RCBS Pro 2000 progressive press.. I am using Hornady dies for this caliber #546554 New Dim die set. This set has the head follower on the seater die to help with this issue.

I have used RCBS and Lee dies all with the same result.

I use the first station to decap, 2nd to flare the mouth and prime, 3rd to charge and 5th to seat the head.

I load 9mm, .40 s+w, .38 special, .357, and a ton of rifle calibers and have no issue with this. Only the .45acp do I have trouble with. Years ago I used a Lee progressive press and do not remember having these troubles at all. I had a bunch of other troubles due to quality of part issues but never do I remember having a cocking issue.

I use a Wilson check gauge to test finished cases.

Since this is a progressive press I use it as such for all my range rounds. We shoot tons and I am less worried about finite accuracy more worried about getting out to keep sharp. The rounds I carry are either commercial or reloads that are not loaded progressive but very slow with many checks to monitor charge weight and overall quality of round.

The progressive mode is used for range rounds where I need to pump out quantity without the worry of all of the above.

I have tried playing with the amount of mouth flare (no change). I find the only way I can get a high percentage of good rounds is to load very slow when hand feeding the head checking it several times as it is inserted in the mouth, and as it is pushed into the die.
This is very time consuming and negates the reason I want progressive press functions.

I have done all the obvious like checking case length and bullet heads (had raineer plating issues) that is for another discussion.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me? I know I can just go slow but that takes forever and I need speed here.

Thanks in advance.

[demigod]

I think Unclenick has described this issue here before. I've personally never seen it. I mean.... I can toss a 230 grain plated bullet into my casemouth very crooked and the die straightens it out and seats is fine.

The only time I've ever had chambering issues was when I didn't have the bullet seated deep enough. I'm wondering if there's a problem with your seating die.

[cybor462]

Thanks demigod for the reply. I wonder if Unclenick was using a RCBS Pro 2000 press. This press has the caliber die plate that slides onto the press and is held in with pins. My plates allow 20-30 thousands of play. I wonder if that is a factor.

With this press I have never been able to reload 45acp without this happening. I have tried Lee dies and RCBS and now Hornady dies. The Hornady set has a follower that seems to help the bullet go in straight but I still get this problem.

I load 40s+w with no trouble but those heads are much smaller and lighter. I know the sheer size and weight of this 230 gn bullet head make it always want to fall over when placed on top of the case.

But you say you have never had this happen so I wonder what type of press you are using.

I called Hornady and they are sending me a custom fit seating stem for round nose heads which the fellow feels may really help. Hornady is a great company to deal with for sure.

I will be sure to keep all informed. If anyone else has any suggestions please post them. I really want to get this right. Nothing like pouinding out hundreds of rounds a session.

[dlb435]

I had a similar problem with a single stage press and Lee 45 ACP die set. It turned out to be a slight adjustment on the seating die. Only a 1/3 turn of the die did the trick. Go back and check the die adjustments.

[zippy13]

Perhaps your press is at fault. Have you tried with a different die plate, or verified its alignment with the shell plate?

[cybor462]

dlb435 did you increase the crimp or seat the bullet deeper? My bullet seat has me roughly .010 under max ocl. I normally load them this way. of course the crimp setting can be changed without changing the bullet depth.

zippy... I am now loading 200 gn hp 45 acp and it is going great. it is only ball heads that give me grief. of course that is what I want to shoot at the range since we shoot so much. Those are all but the cheapest to shoot.

gotta be something with the seater die. Lets see what happens with the custom seat stem. I will post the results when it comes.

[BigJimP]

I use all Dillon dies in my press ...and I've never seen that problem. I'm using a Dillon progressive press ( 650) and .45 acp is one of the easiest cases to load in my experience....and 230gr bullets are certainly easy ....and I use primarily Montana Gold bullets / but I've been shooting a lot of Rainier Ballistics as well lately ..( and we can discuss your plating issues later ..but I understand ) .... but I just finished loading 4,000 230gr RN Rainier bullets with no issues ...

Since you've eliminated the issue of too much or too little belling on the case .... My hunch is it is an issue with the seating die / some seating dies have reversible cups inside to allow for different shapes of bullets - but I don't know if your dies have that option or not. But I would at least remove the seating die / clean it and inspect it - just to make sure there isn't any debris in there ... If there is nothing in there obstructing the bullet seating / or causing the bullet to cant as it goes in ... I still think the die is suspect ... or something is worn in the seating cup inside the die...

As a note ....I did have an issue on my press recently ....where the case edges were smacking the edge of the die and not going straight in ( on station 2, for belling and powder drop ) resulting in a smiley face on the edge of the case ...and rejected rounds. After a lot of frustration .... I found two bolts / under the shell plate ....that hold the base of the press - the head - to the shaft ...that were loose ...and they were the culprit. I must not have torqued them down the last time I took everything apart to clean it up ... Last place human hands touched ...was the issue. I had finished loading 6,000 9mm cases and it wasn't an issue except on maybe 1 in 200 cases .....but when I went to .357 mag / the longer case aggravated it - and it was happening on 50% or more ... I finally figured it out ....because the case was a few thousands off of center / and there was too much play in the base of the shell plate... So you might go back to some of the basics / strip the press down ...check the bolts, etc ...

Let us know how it goes ...

[Unclenick]

cybor462,

I, too, use a Dillon press, but did have the problem. It has a lot to do with how well the seater die's ram profile matches the particular bullet contour you have and whether or not lube and other crud has built up in it. If you have a perfect fit, the bullet usually comes out pretty straight. Plus, I suspect, you have a tighter chamber than average. Most GI chambers are generous and feed about anything, bulged on one side of the base or not. Accuracy with the tipped loads is another matter. Jacketed don't seem to care much, but plated and cast and swaged bullets can be pretty poor when tipped.

If you want to come as close as you can to guaranteeing straight bullet insertion, get an expander die with a Lyman M type profile. This provides a short straight section to let you set the bullet in straight. I used my lathe and a toolpost grinder to put this profile on my Dillon drop/operating tube and the problem went away. Lyman, Redding, and Hornady all use this (patent expired) profile currently. An illustration is below.

[frumious]

I have a Pro2000 as well and I load 45ACP with (mostly) Lee dies:

1. Lee - decap/resize
2. Lee - prime/bell
3. Press - powder charge
4. Lee - bullet seat (no crimp)
5. Redding - taper crimp

In station 5 I used to use the Lee FCD but I decided to try something different.

I load 200 grain black bullets from Precision. I bell the mouth on the case enough so that I can place the bullet in the case and it sinks in a little past where I know the case won't shave lead off of the bullet. I could probably get away with less bell but then I would have to place bullets very precisely. As it is, I can place them fairly haphazardly and the seating die always straightens 'em right out.

Maybe try some "excessive" belling and see if the problem goes away? If so, then bell a little less and try again. Repeat until the problem starts showing up again and then back off a little. Just a thought.

-cls

[cybor462]

Wow thanks all for all this info....

I know it is the die stem because I am using the same die set and I am loading Raineer plated HP heads right now and they are doing great. It is only the ball heads that are driving me nuts.

I did try playing with the bell and that did nothing to help.

I also tried the taper tricks using 4 dies, using a stand alone taper die. That did nothing to help.

I now am back to the 3 die setup. Hornady techs feel that the stem is not a close enough fit to the ball and it is allowing it to tip forcing it in and bulging.

I agree about the chamber issue. I was shooting a Glock and that would barely feed a commercial round (not knocking Glock) I love Glocks and still have 3 just just traded the Glock 45 for a SA XD and that feeds almost anything.

I am now using a Wilson gauge to check loaded rounds. I used to just find them at the range and it started becoming way too painful to have a hundred no feeds at the range so I now check them closely.

I feel there are a few things going on that may be causing grief. As I stated my die plate has about 20-30 thousands play in the pins, This could cause an alignment issue. Seems like all my plates are that way, (or do I have bad pins?) I will call RCBS Monday to see what they say.

That with the stem maybe not being a good enough fit could be enough to cause this issue.

Unclenick... I like your drawing, that would really help if not totally fix the issue. I will look into those Lyman dies with that flare.

Thanks all. I will keep at this to see if I can get it fixed. I will post my results as I go.

Stay Tuned!

[dlb435]

The die I was using did both seating and crimp.
First, I had to back the seating plug all the way out.
Second, I had to back out the die until it would not crimp the case.
Third, adjust the die to crimp the case back to it's straight wall form.
Forth, adjust the seating plug until you get the correct bullet depth.
Once all this was done, I had no more problems.
When I moved the die to a progressive press about all I had to do was screw it in until the seating depth was right. I've had no more trouble with cocked bullets or torn cases. This sounds like 1,2,3,4 and you're done but it took about an hour to get everything set.
I'd never had any trouble with any other pistol rounds. Only the 45 ACP gave me this result.

[cybor462]

dlb435.... what type of heads were you using? I am not sure this would help me because I do not have any trouble with non ball heads. Hollow points work great so that all leads to the seater stem causing the head to cock and then giving me fits.

I do like the Lyman M die where it gives a straight wall section so the head will start straight. The only drawback I see there is excessive case manipulation causing a shorter life span (number of times it can be reloaded) will cause cracking due to becoming brittle from constant working of that part of the case.

I want to see if I can fix this with the stem first. I think it would be the best solution.

I will update this as it happens.

Thanks

[dlb435]

Ah! That's important. Die makers often offer different seating stems but not the Hornady die set. You might want to try an other brand of seating die.

[cybor462]

Had a nice chat with the Hornady tech and he suggests lapping a stem to the head. They are sending me a new stem for free to play with. Can't go wrong with that.
He said to chuck the stem in a drill press and take a bullet head and apply lapping compound to it and push it against the spinning stem. The only problem I see there is the jacket on the head is softer than the stem and I think the head will be lapped instead of the stem.

[dlb435]

Great! With two stems to play with you can drill the face of one to fit the round nose bullets better.

[spacecoast]

My Lee dies have a semi-circular stem and I've had no problems seating round, JHP and two types of SWCs in .45 ACP. I could see where a flat stem and a round bullet might present a problem.

[ohcnap]

The lyman expander M die made everything much easier for me (and for my seating die).Be safe.

[maillemaker]

I believe I am seeing this same effect with 230g bullets for 45ACP in my Lee Pro1000 reloader.

I did not think anything of it until reading this thread.

I am a brand new reloader so I did not know this was not normal. I did not notice if the bulge was to one side of the case or not - I assumed this was a bulge all the way around the case and was due to the bullet being stuck in there and then squashed with the tapering die.

The bullets fit fine in my pistol chamber though.

Steve

[Unclenick]

The Lyman M die will fix that. I've run Winchester .45 ACP cases with that expander profile through up to 50 reloads with taper crimped light target loads, and it causes no increased tendency to crack or split mouths. Just the opposite. Because the step aligns the bullet it actually allows you to apply less flare to the lip of the mouth and still avoid shaving lead. It is the diameter you take the lip to that most affects the start of splits, and the M die lets you minimize that.

The only complaint I've ever heard with regard to the M die is for cartridges using a roll crimp rather than a taper crimp. Apparently some roll crimp profiles can fail to completely close in on the brass at the bottom edge of the step, leaving a slight gap there. The Redding profile crimp die should solve that. The Lee Factory crimp may solve it, also, if your brass wall is thick enough. Personally, I've not encountered this particular issue, but can see how some die designs might allow it.