Military shotguns

ursus · March 21, 2001, 09:49 PM

Hello all,
I attempted a search at the archives and couldn't find any info. I may have first crack at looking over several Winchester and Remington military shotguns. Is either brand
more desirable than the other? Year of production, features
etc? Thanks in advance.

AEM · March 22, 2001, 09:55 AM

They are all desirable, depending on condition, but my preferences would be Winchester model 1997 (old but cool), Winchester model 12 (a classic), the Remington 870 (everybody's favorite shotgun) and the Ithaca model 37 (of Vietnamn fame). All of these are great guns.

The military has also issued others which I'm not as familiar with, like the Win. 1300 and the Mossberg.

I'd love to know how I could order one too. If it is possible, please e-mail me. [email protected]

General Tso · March 22, 2001, 10:33 AM

Are you talking riot/trench guns or training shotguns?

The military has used a wide array of shotguns over the years, particularly during WW I and II. In addition to the commonly seen Winchester Model 1897 and Model 12 trench and riot guns there were also many longer barreled models used for aerial gunnery practice so it's not beyond the realm of possibilty to find ordinance stamps on what otherwise might appear to be hunting guns.

The vast majority of what you'll see will be pump guns of various types but at least some semi's were used. I can think of the Remington Model 11 off the top of my head. I just saw a riot version of that at a show this month and they also used longer barrel models for the above mentioned gunnery practice. From what I've read the Model 11 riotguns were used stateside by factory gaurds etc, and not for combat use.

Another one to keep an eye out for is the Remington Model 10. These were WW I issue guns in both riot and trench configuration. They were the rarest of WW I issue shotguns apparently. I say this with some chagrin as I moved one only a few months ago without fully knowing what I had

. I could find zilch on it in books, from collectors or on the web. Condition was fair at best and it needed fixed (failure to cock when cycled). Concensus was that it must have been a cutdown either used originally as a gunnery model or possibly cutdown for gaurd use. I swapped it for an AK and thought I got the better end of that deal.

Maybe not as it now appears. At this past gunshow my brother picked up a newly printed book on the weapons of WW I. It has a fair section on the Model 10. The first place we've seen anything on it and they give purchase numbers and variation details. After reading that we're pretty confident that what we had was in fact a correct WW I riot version of the Model 10. Oops

. I still can't say I came out of it bad as I had zero invested in it (it was given to my family by a widow who just wanted it out of the house) and the condition was pretty bad, but I wish we'd have known what we had first.

Ah well, live and learn. Point being there are quite a few variations and models out there both in the realm of riot and trench gun, and gaurd and training shotguns. As you get later towards the Vietnam era you'll also see Savage pump shotguns, Rem 870's, Ithaca 37's, Winchesters 1200's (I'm pretty sure they were pre-1300 guns) and Mossberg 590's both 20" guns with full tube and bayonet lugs and 20" tubes with the shorter mag tube and no bayonet lug.

General Tso · March 22, 2001, 12:36 PM

A minor blurb of interest I picked up off a .mil site:

http://www-acala1.ria.army.mil/lc/cs/csi/satoc.htm#Shot

They list the Mossberg 590's and the Winchester 1200 as current inventory. I'm pretty sure 870's are still in service also though, and check out thier pick of that 1200. Wierd. Looks almost like a large sporting fore end and it definatly has the old Win 97/M<odel 12 style trench gun heat shield on it!

General Tso · March 22, 2001, 12:46 PM

And from the Marine Corp fact File...

12 Gauge Shotgun

Primary function: Manually operated (pump), repeating shotgun.
Length: 41.75 inches (106.05 centimeters)
Weight: 8 pounds (3.63 kilograms)
Bore diameter: 12 gauge
Maximum effective range: 50 yards (45.7 meters) with "00" buckshot load
Unit Replacement Cost: $600

Features: The 12 gauge shotgun is a manually operated (pump), repeating shotgun, with a seven-round tubular magazine, a modified choke barrel, ghost ring sights, and is equipped with a bayonet attachment, sling swivels and a standard length military stock with phenolic plastic buttplate. (Some models have wooden and/or folding stocks.) This special purpose individual weapon is used for guard duty, prisoner supervision, local security, riot control, and any situation which requires the use of armed personnel with inherent limited range and ammunition penetration.

Background: Various models of shotgun have been in service use since 1901. The current inventory consists of four different 12 gauge shotgun models: Remington 870, Winchester 1200, Mossberg 500, and Mossberg 590. (Weight and length of the weapon depend on the manufacturer.)

http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.ns...0?OpenDocument

Notice what they list as the replacement cost, $600! Man. somebodies ripping them off no matter which of those 4 shotguns they're talking about!

DML · March 23, 2001, 03:06 AM

Take a look at http://www.gunandknife.com
They have a military shotgun forum.

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March 21, 2001, 09:49 PM	#1
ursus Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Posts: 132	Hello all, I attempted a search at the archives and couldn't find any info. I may have first crack at looking over several Winchester and Remington military shotguns. Is either brand more desirable than the other? Year of production, features etc? Thanks in advance.

March 22, 2001, 09:55 AM	#2
AEM Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 1999 Posts: 171	They are all desirable, depending on condition, but my preferences would be Winchester model 1997 (old but cool), Winchester model 12 (a classic), the Remington 870 (everybody's favorite shotgun) and the Ithaca model 37 (of Vietnamn fame). All of these are great guns. The military has also issued others which I'm not as familiar with, like the Win. 1300 and the Mossberg. I'd love to know how I could order one too. If it is possible, please e-mail me. [email protected]

March 22, 2001, 10:33 AM	#3
General Tso Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Posts: 133	Are you talking riot/trench guns or training shotguns? The military has used a wide array of shotguns over the years, particularly during WW I and II. In addition to the commonly seen Winchester Model 1897 and Model 12 trench and riot guns there were also many longer barreled models used for aerial gunnery practice so it's not beyond the realm of possibilty to find ordinance stamps on what otherwise might appear to be hunting guns. The vast majority of what you'll see will be pump guns of various types but at least some semi's were used. I can think of the Remington Model 11 off the top of my head. I just saw a riot version of that at a show this month and they also used longer barrel models for the above mentioned gunnery practice. From what I've read the Model 11 riotguns were used stateside by factory gaurds etc, and not for combat use. Another one to keep an eye out for is the Remington Model 10. These were WW I issue guns in both riot and trench configuration. They were the rarest of WW I issue shotguns apparently. I say this with some chagrin as I moved one only a few months ago without fully knowing what I had . I could find zilch on it in books, from collectors or on the web. Condition was fair at best and it needed fixed (failure to cock when cycled). Concensus was that it must have been a cutdown either used originally as a gunnery model or possibly cutdown for gaurd use. I swapped it for an AK and thought I got the better end of that deal. Maybe not as it now appears. At this past gunshow my brother picked up a newly printed book on the weapons of WW I. It has a fair section on the Model 10. The first place we've seen anything on it and they give purchase numbers and variation details. After reading that we're pretty confident that what we had was in fact a correct WW I riot version of the Model 10. Oops . I still can't say I came out of it bad as I had zero invested in it (it was given to my family by a widow who just wanted it out of the house) and the condition was pretty bad, but I wish we'd have known what we had first. Ah well, live and learn. Point being there are quite a few variations and models out there both in the realm of riot and trench gun, and gaurd and training shotguns. As you get later towards the Vietnam era you'll also see Savage pump shotguns, Rem 870's, Ithaca 37's, Winchesters 1200's (I'm pretty sure they were pre-1300 guns) and Mossberg 590's both 20" guns with full tube and bayonet lugs and 20" tubes with the shorter mag tube and no bayonet lug.

March 22, 2001, 12:36 PM	#4
General Tso Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Posts: 133	A minor blurb of interest I picked up off a .mil site: http://www-acala1.ria.army.mil/lc/cs/csi/satoc.htm#Shot They list the Mossberg 590's and the Winchester 1200 as current inventory. I'm pretty sure 870's are still in service also though, and check out thier pick of that 1200. Wierd. Looks almost like a large sporting fore end and it definatly has the old Win 97/M<odel 12 style trench gun heat shield on it!

March 22, 2001, 12:46 PM	#5
General Tso Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Posts: 133	And from the Marine Corp fact File... 12 Gauge Shotgun Primary function: Manually operated (pump), repeating shotgun. Length: 41.75 inches (106.05 centimeters) Weight: 8 pounds (3.63 kilograms) Bore diameter: 12 gauge Maximum effective range: 50 yards (45.7 meters) with "00" buckshot load Unit Replacement Cost: $600 Features: The 12 gauge shotgun is a manually operated (pump), repeating shotgun, with a seven-round tubular magazine, a modified choke barrel, ghost ring sights, and is equipped with a bayonet attachment, sling swivels and a standard length military stock with phenolic plastic buttplate. (Some models have wooden and/or folding stocks.) This special purpose individual weapon is used for guard duty, prisoner supervision, local security, riot control, and any situation which requires the use of armed personnel with inherent limited range and ammunition penetration. Background: Various models of shotgun have been in service use since 1901. The current inventory consists of four different 12 gauge shotgun models: Remington 870, Winchester 1200, Mossberg 500, and Mossberg 590. (Weight and length of the weapon depend on the manufacturer.) http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.ns...0?OpenDocument Notice what they list as the replacement cost, $600! Man. somebodies ripping them off no matter which of those 4 shotguns they're talking about!

March 23, 2001, 03:06 AM	#6
DML Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2000 Location: Aridzona Posts: 257	Take a look at http://www.gunandknife.com They have a military shotgun forum.