Help:case trimmer? Powder? For 223.

rijaxon · December 25, 2008, 10:38 AM

I've just gotten back into reloading after 20 years. After loading some 223, I've found that the cases lengthened quite a bit after they were fired prior to reloading them an they won't chamber in my AR. I need a good case trimmer and a fast one since I hope to reload a good bit of 223. Please tell me what you recommend and why. Also, when using IMR 4064, the middle powder charges fill the case to overflowing. How do you compress a 223 load? I need trick/techniques. What is the best powder for 223? Thanks, very much.

Qtiphky · December 25, 2008, 10:44 AM

I use the Lee Zip Trimmer with the cartridge specific case length guide and cutter. It's been awhile, but I think it cost me less than $50 for the whole setup. I full length size (de prime in the same step), trim, then chamfer the inside and outside of the neck while it is in the trimmer and resize again. Seems like a lot, but one of my friends who has been loading for a long time recommended this as it should help with the accuracy. The Lee Zip Trimmer is inexpensive and very slick for this operation. I'm sure there are higher quality or more expensive equipment out there, but so far Lee hasn't disappointed me in my endeavors.

the machinist · December 25, 2008, 11:29 AM

I'm not sure you want a compressed 223 load..its a high pressure round to start with..I asked the same question on here about the powder and I ordered 8lbs of ramshot, its a really clean powder.
It looks like 25.5 g's of the 4064 is what you want, I wouldnt think that would overflow the case, i'm guessing your weighing the charge and not relying on a chart??

jmorris · December 25, 2008, 11:47 AM

Quote:

I need a good case trimmer and a fast one since I hope to reload a good bit of 223.

I generally load a five gallon bucket of 223 at a time. It takes about 2.5 hours to size and trim 4000 cases using a 650 and the Dillon trimmer.

elkman06 · December 25, 2008, 11:58 AM

Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Now, getting that out of the way, I'm not sure what you are asking on the compressed load question. 25ish grains of 4064 may be in the compressed load area but not overflowing. If you are asking how to compress and then get more powder in after that, then I would hope you would stop and rezero or get a new scale. I shoot around 25ish grains and it doesn't overflow the cases I use. They shoot very well out of my Saiga AK chambered in .223.
I have a RCBS trimmer that is fairly fast for a hand spun trimmer.
I also have a Forster that looks to be a decent trimmer, if a little slower.
elkman06

armedtotheteeth · December 25, 2008, 12:17 PM

I got a hand crank RCBS trimmer ..Minus the hand crank. I took off the crank and chucked it in a 1/2 inch drill. I cant imagine doing 4000 cases at a time. Holy Moly!! I can do all sorts of cases with it, it just takes a little setup time for each caliber. Do all the trimming first, then go back and chamfer afterwards. I do stuff old school though, i step at a time. It takes awhile. 40$ / 100 round box of FMJ starts to look good after a while.

rn22723 · December 25, 2008, 03:26 PM

Pretty simple

For shear power nothing beats Giraud Case Trimmer! The Dillon Trimmer set up in 650 or 1050 may well be pretty darn fast, but not near as good of results.

H335 works for mid wt 223 bullets
TAC work great from mid wt to hvy wt bullet in the 223!

PCJim · December 25, 2008, 10:15 PM

RI, first welcome to the board, second, Merry Christmas.

I too just started reloading .223 although I've been reloading .243 and pistol calibers for more than 25 years. Doesn't make me an expert though. I've found there are two basic types of case trimmers - those that measure the entire case length and trim accordingly, and those that work off the shoulder "datum" which if properly full length sized, should provide the same length case as a full length trimmer. I first purchased the Lee trimmer setup but returned it as I didn't think I could work it as fast as the Possum Hollow trimmer when used in the power attachment on a variable speed drill. The Possum Hollow trimmer works off the shoulder datum. I have noted that there can be a minor variance in the overall cartridge length of a lot being processed of less than .01 inches. That might drive a match shooter crazy. For me, it's insignificant especially compared to the speed which I can trim casings.

For powder, there is a good variety which all work well. I settled on BLC-2 only because my first choice was sold out when I was ordering. I also needed something that could be used for lighter weight .243 bullets.

By the way, you'll also soon find that you will need a primer pocket reamer or swager if you intend to reload .223. I haven't decided yet which is the better route to take. I purchased a CH4D swager and have had fairly good results with it, however it does require readjustment for each manufacture of brass. I am considering purchasing the Hornady pocket reamer to give it a try. The ultimate would be the Girard, second probably the Dillon 600. I just don't have that kind of cash to throw around.

Good luck, and again welcome to the board.

amamnn · December 25, 2008, 10:21 PM

Giraud Case Trimmer <~~ an excellent tool.

I'll only add two things, well three.

The Forster case trimmer can accept parts to make it a trimmer and a reamer and a neck turner and can be powered by an electric drill. It is also orders of magnitude less expensive than the Giraud.

If you are having trouble getting long grain powder to fit in your cases, try using a drop tube and see if that does not help. I agree that 25 grains of 4064 should not need to be compressed. MTM makes a powder funnel kit that includes adapters for most cases and a drop tube. RCBS makes a drop tube for their funnels and also the uniflow measure, as I recall. In extreme cases, I have used a Forster bag filler funnel to drop powder, but that's a pretty slow process, and the load did not work out anyway.

PCJim · December 25, 2008, 10:27 PM

Here's a link to a video showing how the Possum Hollow trimmer can be used...

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i42nDelSKf8

BTW, that is NOT me.

sourdough44 · December 25, 2008, 10:54 PM

Time to move over to Ramshot TAC for your 223.

rijaxon · December 25, 2008, 10:54 PM

You guys are great! I will look up all the equipment you all mentioned and learn how they each work. The point about trimming to length from the shoulder "datum" makes all the sense in the world. I guess I'm going to have to add a step in my reloading that I either forgot about or didn't realize was so important. It appears the 223 is a little harder to get "right" than my 308's and 270's. :barf:

Also, regarding my scale, I have an RCBS scale that came with my Rock Chucker kit. It seems flimsy to me but certainly should be close enough. The powder did over flow when I tried to put in a half grain less than the max. load. Could the scale be that far off? I'll get with a local reloader and compare our scales and test mine. My assumption was that there must be a tool for packing the powder in before seating the bullet. If so, that was going to take forever to reload a bunch of ammo. I was wondering if there were a better powder that settled better in the case so I could my automatic powder feeder.

I certainly won't be doing buckets of 223. Man, that's impressive! I have a Bushmaster Varminter AR and just want to be able to shoot tight groups out to 200 yds. I'm open to hearing of you all's favorite loads, overall cartridge length, bullet brand, weight for a 1 in 9 twist, etc. Again, many thanks and thanks for those who set up the forum. Merry Christmas to all!
Rick

armedtotheteeth · December 25, 2008, 11:00 PM

one of the hings i do before every reloading session is weigh on of the bullets i will be loading in my scale to check for scale errors. Just a quick idiot check.

**Unclenick** · December 25, 2008, 11:40 PM

Rijaxon,

First, you said your cases were too long. Since they don't chamber in your AR I assume they were not fired in it originally? If you bought once-fired brass with military head stamps, it may have been fired originally in a full-auto weapon. Those tend to have long chambers and will stretch it. Trimming is only intended to bring the neck down to safe length. It should only be done after resizing so it corrects the final dimension of the brass as it will be loaded. If the brass is long from the casehead to the shoulder, then resizing should correct that. If it doesn't do it after two passes through the die, then you will need a small base sizing die, at least for the first time you resize it.

For varmint shooting you will want to use light (40 to 50 grain), fast bullets and get good accuracy. For that I recommend the powder Stoner designed the AR for, IMR4198. You will likely work up to the 21 to 23 grain range, depending on your bullet weight. It will just about use up the empty space in the case. If you want to load a lot of it you will want a good powder measure for stick powders. The JDS QuickMeasure is one, though it takes a little learning to set it up. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure actually does pretty well with stick powder if you anchor it securely, and would be my second choice.

If you decide to go with a ball powder, Ramshot X-terminator is about as slow as you should go with light bullets. Any rotary drum measure will work well with it. The Redding 30BR is probably the best for ball powder in .223 size cases before you get to high-end benchrest measure like a Harrell.

rijaxon · December 25, 2008, 11:50 PM

Actually, I'm using a hodge podge of brass that was twice fired because it was reloads from a large reloading co. here in Ga and then my sons and I shot the reloads in our AR's. I haven't even shot the new Varminter AR and was hoping to do so tomorrow. When I tried to chamber some of the reloads I had built in it to see if they'd load, the bolt wouldn't close and I almost couldn't get them out and gave up. I looked at some factory bullets and compared them to my reloads and it appears the neck is fractionally longer on my reloads. Is it, perhaps, best to just buy some unfired brass in quantity and divide a portion for each gun? Would that eliminate the problem?

December 25, 2008, 10:38 AM	#1
rijaxon Junior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 7	Help:case trimmer? Powder? For 223. I've just gotten back into reloading after 20 years. After loading some 223, I've found that the cases lengthened quite a bit after they were fired prior to reloading them an they won't chamber in my AR. I need a good case trimmer and a fast one since I hope to reload a good bit of 223. Please tell me what you recommend and why. Also, when using IMR 4064, the middle powder charges fill the case to overflowing. How do you compress a 223 load? I need trick/techniques. What is the best powder for 223? Thanks, very much.

December 25, 2008, 11:58 AM	#5
elkman06 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2006 Location: Wyoming Posts: 885	Internet advice is worth exactly what you pay for it. Now, getting that out of the way, I'm not sure what you are asking on the compressed load question. 25ish grains of 4064 may be in the compressed load area but not overflowing. If you are asking how to compress and then get more powder in after that, then I would hope you would stop and rezero or get a new scale. I shoot around 25ish grains and it doesn't overflow the cases I use. They shoot very well out of my Saiga AK chambered in .223. I have a RCBS trimmer that is fairly fast for a hand spun trimmer. I also have a Forster that looks to be a decent trimmer, if a little slower. elkman06 __________________ "The right of the citizens to bear arms in the defense of themselves and of the state shall not be denied." Wyoming Constitution Article 1, Sec24 "Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6"

December 25, 2008, 10:15 PM	#8
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	RI, first welcome to the board, second, Merry Christmas. I too just started reloading .223 although I've been reloading .243 and pistol calibers for more than 25 years. Doesn't make me an expert though. I've found there are two basic types of case trimmers - those that measure the entire case length and trim accordingly, and those that work off the shoulder "datum" which if properly full length sized, should provide the same length case as a full length trimmer. I first purchased the Lee trimmer setup but returned it as I didn't think I could work it as fast as the Possum Hollow trimmer when used in the power attachment on a variable speed drill. The Possum Hollow trimmer works off the shoulder datum. I have noted that there can be a minor variance in the overall cartridge length of a lot being processed of less than .01 inches. That might drive a match shooter crazy. For me, it's insignificant especially compared to the speed which I can trim casings. For powder, there is a good variety which all work well. I settled on BLC-2 only because my first choice was sold out when I was ordering. I also needed something that could be used for lighter weight .243 bullets. By the way, you'll also soon find that you will need a primer pocket reamer or swager if you intend to reload .223. I haven't decided yet which is the better route to take. I purchased a CH4D swager and have had fairly good results with it, however it does require readjustment for each manufacture of brass. I am considering purchasing the Hornady pocket reamer to give it a try. The ultimate would be the Girard, second probably the Dillon 600. I just don't have that kind of cash to throw around. Good luck, and again welcome to the board. Last edited by PCJim; December 25, 2008 at 10:16 PM. Reason: grammar

December 25, 2008, 10:21 PM	#9
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Giraud Case Trimmer <~~ an excellent tool. I'll only add two things, well three. The Forster case trimmer can accept parts to make it a trimmer and a reamer and a neck turner and can be powered by an electric drill. It is also orders of magnitude less expensive than the Giraud. If you are having trouble getting long grain powder to fit in your cases, try using a drop tube and see if that does not help. I agree that 25 grains of 4064 should not need to be compressed. MTM makes a powder funnel kit that includes adapters for most cases and a drop tube. RCBS makes a drop tube for their funnels and also the uniflow measure, as I recall. In extreme cases, I have used a Forster bag filler funnel to drop powder, but that's a pretty slow process, and the load did not work out anyway. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

December 25, 2008, 10:54 PM	#12
rijaxon Junior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 7	Many thanks! You guys are great! I will look up all the equipment you all mentioned and learn how they each work. The point about trimming to length from the shoulder "datum" makes all the sense in the world. I guess I'm going to have to add a step in my reloading that I either forgot about or didn't realize was so important. It appears the 223 is a little harder to get "right" than my 308's and 270's. :barf: Also, regarding my scale, I have an RCBS scale that came with my Rock Chucker kit. It seems flimsy to me but certainly should be close enough. The powder did over flow when I tried to put in a half grain less than the max. load. Could the scale be that far off? I'll get with a local reloader and compare our scales and test mine. My assumption was that there must be a tool for packing the powder in before seating the bullet. If so, that was going to take forever to reload a bunch of ammo. I was wondering if there were a better powder that settled better in the case so I could my automatic powder feeder. I certainly won't be doing buckets of 223. Man, that's impressive! I have a Bushmaster Varminter AR and just want to be able to shoot tight groups out to 200 yds. I'm open to hearing of you all's favorite loads, overall cartridge length, bullet brand, weight for a 1 in 9 twist, etc. Again, many thanks and thanks for those who set up the forum. Merry Christmas to all! Rick

December 25, 2008, 10:44 AM	#2
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	I use the Lee Zip Trimmer with the cartridge specific case length guide and cutter. It's been awhile, but I think it cost me less than $50 for the whole setup. I full length size (de prime in the same step), trim, then chamfer the inside and outside of the neck while it is in the trimmer and resize again. Seems like a lot, but one of my friends who has been loading for a long time recommended this as it should help with the accuracy. The Lee Zip Trimmer is inexpensive and very slick for this operation. I'm sure there are higher quality or more expensive equipment out there, but so far Lee hasn't disappointed me in my endeavors.

December 25, 2008, 11:29 AM	#3
the machinist Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Posts: 66	I'm not sure you want a compressed 223 load..its a high pressure round to start with..I asked the same question on here about the powder and I ordered 8lbs of ramshot, its a really clean powder. It looks like 25.5 g's of the 4064 is what you want, I wouldnt think that would overflow the case, i'm guessing your weighing the charge and not relying on a chart??

December 25, 2008, 12:17 PM	#6
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	I got a hand crank RCBS trimmer ..Minus the hand crank. I took off the crank and chucked it in a 1/2 inch drill. I cant imagine doing 4000 cases at a time. Holy Moly!! I can do all sorts of cases with it, it just takes a little setup time for each caliber. Do all the trimming first, then go back and chamfer afterwards. I do stuff old school though, i step at a time. It takes awhile. 40$ / 100 round box of FMJ starts to look good after a while.

December 25, 2008, 03:26 PM	#7
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	Pretty simple For shear power nothing beats Giraud Case Trimmer! The Dillon Trimmer set up in 650 or 1050 may well be pretty darn fast, but not near as good of results. H335 works for mid wt 223 bullets TAC work great from mid wt to hvy wt bullet in the 223!

December 25, 2008, 10:27 PM	#10
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Here's a link to a video showing how the Possum Hollow trimmer can be used... http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i42nDelSKf8 BTW, that is NOT me.

December 25, 2008, 10:54 PM	#11
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	Time to move over to Ramshot TAC for your 223.

December 25, 2008, 11:00 PM	#13
armedtotheteeth Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2005 Location: podunk, Texas Posts: 1,610	one of the hings i do before every reloading session is weigh on of the bullets i will be loading in my scale to check for scale errors. Just a quick idiot check.

December 25, 2008, 11:40 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Rijaxon, First, you said your cases were too long. Since they don't chamber in your AR I assume they were not fired in it originally? If you bought once-fired brass with military head stamps, it may have been fired originally in a full-auto weapon. Those tend to have long chambers and will stretch it. Trimming is only intended to bring the neck down to safe length. It should only be done after resizing so it corrects the final dimension of the brass as it will be loaded. If the brass is long from the casehead to the shoulder, then resizing should correct that. If it doesn't do it after two passes through the die, then you will need a small base sizing die, at least for the first time you resize it. For varmint shooting you will want to use light (40 to 50 grain), fast bullets and get good accuracy. For that I recommend the powder Stoner designed the AR for, IMR4198. You will likely work up to the 21 to 23 grain range, depending on your bullet weight. It will just about use up the empty space in the case. If you want to load a lot of it you will want a good powder measure for stick powders. The JDS QuickMeasure is one, though it takes a little learning to set it up. The inexpensive Lee Perfect measure actually does pretty well with stick powder if you anchor it securely, and would be my second choice. If you decide to go with a ball powder, Ramshot X-terminator is about as slow as you should go with light bullets. Any rotary drum measure will work well with it. The Redding 30BR is probably the best for ball powder in .223 size cases before you get to high-end benchrest measure like a Harrell. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 25, 2008, 11:50 PM	#15
rijaxon Junior Member Join Date: December 25, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 7	Actually, I'm using a hodge podge of brass that was twice fired because it was reloads from a large reloading co. here in Ga and then my sons and I shot the reloads in our AR's. I haven't even shot the new Varminter AR and was hoping to do so tomorrow. When I tried to chamber some of the reloads I had built in it to see if they'd load, the bolt wouldn't close and I almost couldn't get them out and gave up. I looked at some factory bullets and compared them to my reloads and it appears the neck is fractionally longer on my reloads. Is it, perhaps, best to just buy some unfired brass in quantity and divide a portion for each gun? Would that eliminate the problem?