DHS Video - How to Die With As Little Trouble As Possible

Daugherty16 · January 31, 2013, 07:15 PM

Has anyone seen this? It is a Homeland Security video that answers two essential questions - how to be well trained unarmed victim, and where your tax dollars go after the Gov't takes them.

http://www.dhs.gov/video/options-con...training-video

Question 2 is really pretty rhetorical, and always has been. But the first - as i watched this video, i kept shouting at my computer "Draw Your Gun!" Of course, we all go into Victim Zones from time to time, and i do it every day as a regular civilian employee of a Federal agency (I'm the Director of a regional office of HUD). We go to Parent/Teacher conferences at the schools, you pick up a package at the post office.

The one GOOD piece of advice dealt with situational awareness - it said to HAVE A PLAN for any place you go. What do you think? Share your plans for the places you go, especially the Victim Zones you are forced to navigate.

RamItOne · January 31, 2013, 07:24 PM

Just hope you don't have those safety scissors in your desk drawer

Deaf Smith · January 31, 2013, 07:48 PM

You would think these DHS 'experts' would game the techniques.

Have paintball guns and the defender has rubber scissors.

Say in the DHS offices. Randomly over a week or two stage an attack and see what works and what doesn't.

I say this cause the idea of scissors against guns was tried in WW2. Only the Japanese had swords and the GI's M1 Garands.

And we know how well that worked out.

Deaf

Polinese · February 2, 2013, 08:45 AM

If it makes you feel better they even make my agency go through all the same active shooter stuff... and all of us carry guns.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 2, 2013, 08:15 PM

We had an active shooter video - it has to be institutionally PC and avoid discussing firearms based defense.

It is basically very good advice on alertness, hiding, running, etc. It mentions that you have to fight but the fight scenarios are carefully chosen to be close quarter tackling of the shooter.

Most scenarios also assume that you hear the people dying elsewhere and then can do the above.

It specifically avoids the large lecture room attacks that happen at school shootings.

It is quietly assumed that if you are in the first targeted large room you will die with little chance of effective self-defense.

The reasons against armed self-defense are:

1. General antipathy to guns for political reasons and the belief that by some that they personally are victims - unable to act.

2. Allowing guns might lead to an innocent getting shot. Of course this is bad, but the institutional core reason is that they fear liability if they allow guns.

One person told me that they didn't want to get caught in a crossfire but then they are only in the FIRE from the killer with no chance of being saved.

3. The police might shoot the good guy - but if that happens after 30 are saved that is terrible but a rationally good outcome. It also implies that they are not confident they could act effectively in target recognition. Also, they fear liability in shooting a good guy. Total liability is the god of institutional decision making.

The attitude of the self-defense deniers is to become smug and look at the SD advocates as some kind of gun frenzied nutso.

sigcurious · February 2, 2013, 08:40 PM

FEMA Course

The school I go to recently put the above free active shooter "course" up on the website.

Some highlights:

Quote:

3. Take action against the active shooter
As a last resort, and only when your life is in imminent danger, attempt to
disrupt and/or incapacitate the active shooter by:
• Acting as aggressively as possible against him/her
• Throwing items and improvising weapons
• Yelling
• Committing to your actions

Emphasis mine.

Quote:

FALSE: In the case of an active shooter, there will be sufficient time for law enforcement to take control of the situation.

Explanation: Because most incidents last only 15 to 20 minutes, individuals at the scene must be prepared to deal with the situation until law enforcement personnel arrive.

Yeah...be prepared to deal with the situation...by yelling at the guy with the gun(s).

Deaf Smith · February 2, 2013, 11:04 PM

Actually there will be sufficient time for law enforcement to take control of the situation.

After the shooter runs out of ammo or gets bored and off's himself.

Builds confidence, right?

Deaf

raimius · February 3, 2013, 12:28 AM

That was a pretty vague overview, and only got into specifics about cell phones and how not to get shot by the police. Pretty bad failure of a training video, if you ask me!

The "Run, Hide, Fight" video is a much better one, for people who do not have an effective method of defense.

I also feel it is a mistake to deny decent people access to firearms, if they so choose.

cnimrod · February 5, 2013, 12:06 PM

Interesting the first defense (and natural response I think) is to get away, yet in all the schools I've worked in the first directive is to hide and stay silent. Many of my coworkers get all worked up on this esp in the special needs class I most often work. These kids have a hard time being silent, standing still etc. Bottom line I say to them do the best you can to follow the drill and admins guidelines but in the 1 in 1 million chance it were ever real. The teacher is in charge in the classroom and they decide what best to do to keep their kids safe.

Ike666 · February 5, 2013, 04:44 PM

The scary bit is the point man on the response team. Watch the video at about 1:23 into it - the team is coming through the door. Look at the point man's grip on the pistol - two thumbs across the back of the slide. Clearly DHS didn't even use someone who has ever fired a pistol - one shot and done.

orionengnr · February 5, 2013, 05:10 PM

A wise man once said "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".

These days you may live on your knees or die on your knees, and even at that...you still don't get a choice.

Dang, I'm getting cynical in my old age.

Murdock · February 6, 2013, 08:13 AM

When the university where I was employed as adjunct faculty discussed active shooter preparation after the VA Tech shootings, one of the full-time faculty brought up the issue of legal carry as a means of countering an active shooter.
(This is a gun-friendly state with a shall issue law).

She was informed that a faculty member who was discovered to be carrying a concealed firearm would be subject to immediate dismissal.

When I learned of this I agreed completely with this policy. I terminated myself immediately.

SHE3PDOG · February 7, 2013, 12:50 AM

It baffles me that people would rather be helpless victims than have some sort of method for effective self defense. To a certain degree, I understand the liability aspect of not allowing concealed carry within places like this, but how often do you hear about police stations, a place where nearly everyone in the facility is known to be armed, getting shot up? I am a Marine, and I hate that I am not allowed to carry on base, open or concealed. Instances like Ft.Hood, mentioned in the video, would not have happened so severely if people in the building had been armed.

Glenn E. Meyer · February 7, 2013, 10:36 AM

Sorry to say - that if you search you can find police stations and courts being shot up. It's not a telling argument against the suicidal run from someone who wants to kill and then die.

Search on it. Tyler court house for instance. There are others.

Look at this guy - http://abcnews.go.com/US/christopher...ry?id=18427632

The reason for the gun, primarily, is to reduce the impact of the incident as the shooter can be engaged more quickly.

ClydeFrog · February 14, 2013, 08:52 PM

I would check out the group; ASIS, www.asisonline.org .

I read over www.Lasorsa.com too. School/campus security & workplace/mall homeland security issues will get a lot more ink in the next few years.

A lot of rip-off artists & nutcases will pop up teaching classes or going on media outlets too.

CF

January 31, 2013, 07:15 PM	#1
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	DHS Video - How to Die With As Little Trouble As Possible Has anyone seen this? It is a Homeland Security video that answers two essential questions - how to be well trained unarmed victim, and where your tax dollars go after the Gov't takes them. http://www.dhs.gov/video/options-con...training-video Question 2 is really pretty rhetorical, and always has been. But the first - as i watched this video, i kept shouting at my computer "Draw Your Gun!" Of course, we all go into Victim Zones from time to time, and i do it every day as a regular civilian employee of a Federal agency (I'm the Director of a regional office of HUD). We go to Parent/Teacher conferences at the schools, you pick up a package at the post office. The one GOOD piece of advice dealt with situational awareness - it said to HAVE A PLAN for any place you go. What do you think? Share your plans for the places you go, especially the Victim Zones you are forced to navigate. __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

January 31, 2013, 07:24 PM	#2
RamItOne Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2011 Posts: 990	Just hope you don't have those safety scissors in your desk drawer __________________ M&P- the other dark meat https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...rtant/DJyvnHz0

January 31, 2013, 07:48 PM	#3
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	You would think these DHS 'experts' would game the techniques. Have paintball guns and the defender has rubber scissors. Say in the DHS offices. Randomly over a week or two stage an attack and see what works and what doesn't. I say this cause the idea of scissors against guns was tried in WW2. Only the Japanese had swords and the GI's M1 Garands. And we know how well that worked out. Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

February 2, 2013, 08:15 PM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	We had an active shooter video - it has to be institutionally PC and avoid discussing firearms based defense. It is basically very good advice on alertness, hiding, running, etc. It mentions that you have to fight but the fight scenarios are carefully chosen to be close quarter tackling of the shooter. Most scenarios also assume that you hear the people dying elsewhere and then can do the above. It specifically avoids the large lecture room attacks that happen at school shootings. It is quietly assumed that if you are in the first targeted large room you will die with little chance of effective self-defense. The reasons against armed self-defense are: 1. General antipathy to guns for political reasons and the belief that by some that they personally are victims - unable to act. 2. Allowing guns might lead to an innocent getting shot. Of course this is bad, but the institutional core reason is that they fear liability if they allow guns. One person told me that they didn't want to get caught in a crossfire but then they are only in the FIRE from the killer with no chance of being saved. 3. The police might shoot the good guy - but if that happens after 30 are saved that is terrible but a rationally good outcome. It also implies that they are not confident they could act effectively in target recognition. Also, they fear liability in shooting a good guy. Total liability is the god of institutional decision making. The attitude of the self-defense deniers is to become smug and look at the SD advocates as some kind of gun frenzied nutso. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

February 2, 2013, 11:04 PM	#7
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	Actually there will be sufficient time for law enforcement to take control of the situation. After the shooter runs out of ammo or gets bored and off's himself. Builds confidence, right? Deaf __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

February 2, 2013, 08:45 AM	#4
Polinese Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2010 Posts: 946	If it makes you feel better they even make my agency go through all the same active shooter stuff... and all of us carry guns.

February 3, 2013, 12:28 AM	#8
raimius Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2008 Posts: 2,199	That was a pretty vague overview, and only got into specifics about cell phones and how not to get shot by the police. Pretty bad failure of a training video, if you ask me! The "Run, Hide, Fight" video is a much better one, for people who do not have an effective method of defense. I also feel it is a mistake to deny decent people access to firearms, if they so choose.

February 5, 2013, 12:06 PM	#9
cnimrod Senior Member Join Date: September 24, 2009 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 152	School Lockdown drills Interesting the first defense (and natural response I think) is to get away, yet in all the schools I've worked in the first directive is to hide and stay silent. Many of my coworkers get all worked up on this esp in the special needs class I most often work. These kids have a hard time being silent, standing still etc. Bottom line I say to them do the best you can to follow the drill and admins guidelines but in the 1 in 1 million chance it were ever real. The teacher is in charge in the classroom and they decide what best to do to keep their kids safe.

February 5, 2013, 04:44 PM	#10
Ike666 Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2009 Location: SW VA Posts: 491	The scary bit is the point man on the response team. Watch the video at about 1:23 into it - the team is coming through the door. Look at the point man's grip on the pistol - two thumbs across the back of the slide. Clearly DHS didn't even use someone who has ever fired a pistol - one shot and done. __________________ ___________________ "I'm your huckleberry."

February 5, 2013, 05:10 PM	#11
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,173	A wise man once said "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees". These days you may live on your knees or die on your knees, and even at that...you still don't get a choice. Dang, I'm getting cynical in my old age. Last edited by orionengnr; February 5, 2013 at 09:30 PM.

February 6, 2013, 08:13 AM	#12
Murdock Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2008 Location: Down East Maine Posts: 431	When the university where I was employed as adjunct faculty discussed active shooter preparation after the VA Tech shootings, one of the full-time faculty brought up the issue of legal carry as a means of countering an active shooter. (This is a gun-friendly state with a shall issue law). She was informed that a faculty member who was discovered to be carrying a concealed firearm would be subject to immediate dismissal. When I learned of this I agreed completely with this policy. I terminated myself immediately. __________________ The United States Marine Corps: Providing the enemies of America the opportunity to die for their countries since 1775. Semper fi.

February 7, 2013, 12:50 AM	#13
SHE3PDOG Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Posts: 988	It baffles me that people would rather be helpless victims than have some sort of method for effective self defense. To a certain degree, I understand the liability aspect of not allowing concealed carry within places like this, but how often do you hear about police stations, a place where nearly everyone in the facility is known to be armed, getting shot up? I am a Marine, and I hate that I am not allowed to carry on base, open or concealed. Instances like Ft.Hood, mentioned in the video, would not have happened so severely if people in the building had been armed.

February 7, 2013, 10:36 AM	#14
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Sorry to say - that if you search you can find police stations and courts being shot up. It's not a telling argument against the suicidal run from someone who wants to kill and then die. Search on it. Tyler court house for instance. There are others. Look at this guy - http://abcnews.go.com/US/christopher...ry?id=18427632 The reason for the gun, primarily, is to reduce the impact of the incident as the shooter can be engaged more quickly. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens Last edited by Glenn E. Meyer; February 7, 2013 at 05:16 PM.

February 14, 2013, 08:52 PM	#15
ClydeFrog Junior member Join Date: May 1, 2010 Posts: 5,797	LaSorsa.com ASIS.... I would check out the group; ASIS, www.asisonline.org . I read over www.Lasorsa.com too. School/campus security & workplace/mall homeland security issues will get a lot more ink in the next few years. A lot of rip-off artists & nutcases will pop up teaching classes or going on media outlets too. CF

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search