Simple question? hard answers. - Page 2

hooligan1 · February 26, 2012, 10:41 AM

It is the "bearing surface" that comes to mind, some are longer in this surface than others, and then it all comes down to twist rate,,, that's where I'm at right now so far.

and no I need a break from cleaning filthy rifles

hooligan1 · March 3, 2012, 05:50 PM

I took the rifle to the range today to try some new data loads, actually went with the Dan Newberry method mostly, and came up with a powder charge.
I have only to adjust AOL to get a real dandy load with the 160 grn Accubond and Imr 7828, and then I'm on to the 140 grn Accubond, to find a dandy mix for it. I will try to get some pics of the targets I shot today, they're pretty decent for a hunting rifle, that only cost $350.00. The main reason to even try this many different bullet weights is just in case I get to go west one day, I want to be ready!!

TheNatureBoy · March 3, 2012, 07:25 PM

Re-22 under a 160 grain anything and don't look back.

hooligan1 · March 4, 2012, 08:44 AM

Here's some pics of the targets I shot yesterday,(saturday march 3, 2012) the temp was 45 degrees and the wind was blowing from the southwest at about ten miles an hour but was a No value wind at this range.
Load # 1. 60.9 grns of IMR 7828, 160 grn Accubond.
Load # 2. 61.2 grns of IMR 7828, 160 grn Accubond.
Load # 3. 61.5 grns of IMR 7828, 160 grn Accubond.
Load # 4. 61.8 grns of IMR 7828, 160 grn Accubond.

These loads were tested at one hundred yds, three shot groups, taking my time so the barrel never got hot.

I'm leaning towards forward testing with load # 4, and some AOL adjustments.

BTW, the current AOL is 2.803, (7mm rem mag.)
This rifle has 1 in 9 1/2 inch twist so it should like even heavier bullets!

hooligan1 · March 17, 2012, 07:28 PM

Tommorrow I will try the AOL adjustments to this 160 Accubond load,. Then I will try the first load tests in the 140 gr Accubond, using IMR4831....

I got my fingers crossed that both series pan out... if the grouping is cool I'll post it,,,,,, if not,,,, I'll keep working on it!

hooligan1 · March 18, 2012, 04:40 PM

Well, well, well,,,, Looks like I found my Huckleberry!!!

I won't wipe this grin off for at leat two more days!!

Here it is boy's "The One" for my 7mm, Rem Mag Weatherby Vanguard: Winchester Brass, 160 grn Accubond, 61.8 grns of IMR 7828, CCI 250 Primer, and an oal of 2.800..... I think I can use this to accurately take game!!!

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2012, 04:44 PM

You just might be able to hit something with that one.

flashhole · March 18, 2012, 05:06 PM

Lookin goooood! 7828 always burned dirty in my 7mm. I ended up with Retumbo as my go-to powder with heavy bullets. Nice job.

davery25 · March 18, 2012, 05:36 PM

firelapping the bore will likely solve (or at least greatly help with) your copper fouling problem and will improve accuracy as well.

www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm is a good read with some accurising tips as well

TXGunNut · March 19, 2012, 09:14 PM

Sorry, hooligan1. You're all out of excuses, if you miss now it's all on you.

Ain't it great when a load comes together?

old roper · March 20, 2012, 11:57 AM

hooligan1, Well your load of 61.8gr/IMR-7828 with 160gr AB shoots down the notion that you have to load near max to get accuracy since Nosler start load 60gr/IMR-7828 @ 2859fps and max is 64gr/IMR-7828 @ 3015fps.

oneounceload · March 20, 2012, 12:06 PM

Quote:

The main reason to even try this many different bullet weights is just in case I get to go west one day, I want to be ready

I spent many years living in Colorado and Nevada - your 160 gr load will do the job for antelope to elk nicely. My personal 7mm liked Sierra 160's best for accuracy - avg of three shots in 5/8's over and over- and the Nosler Partition for penetration in larger animals three shots in 3/4 - 7/8 .

That's at 100 yards and 2.8OAL

Once you got it - and it looks like you did, load up what you can from the same batch and label it as such; then plan that hunting trip!

Bart B. · March 20, 2012, 09:36 PM

I don't think 3 shot groups are significant enough to base anything on.

Shoot at least 15 shots per test group and the probability of that being close to what all shots will perform is about 3 times better.

hooligan1 · March 23, 2012, 04:21 PM

Bart ole boy thats 4 rounds in that hole fella and that enough for me to feel confident with this certain load,,,,, actually I could put twenty of these in this same group probably!

Gunplummer · March 23, 2012, 06:10 PM

Probably a lot of guys on this forum that have reloaded twice as long as me. I still won't unless I can not get the ammo or it is expensive beyond belief. Factory ammo has come a long way. It is an expensive hobby to reload and if you like to do it go ahead. I also got the bug on occasion and spent way too much time and money trying to make a rifle shoot well. Then after I finally hit the recipe, it was over and I would lose interest in the gun. I have rebarreled thousands of rifles (really) and sometimes you just get a bad barrel and there is nothing to do about it.

hooligan1 · March 24, 2012, 06:38 AM

Today, (after a few "honey do's") I'm going to expound on the data that I found last week testing for loads with the 140 grn Accubonds, and IMR4831... I shot three test loads and none showed any signs of high pressure and were very easy to shoot and one or two loads shot very reasonable...

This rifle has a very fine factory barrel, and is accurate with one factory load,(I have only tried the one) and three different bullets thus far.....And yes Gunplummer it does cost money, to achieve higher quality accuracy,, (but it keeps me from spending all my money on fishing

)and when it all comes together is really cool.

Then I will start working up loads for that little MarkV .243 win.

Gunplummer · March 24, 2012, 04:47 PM

Maybe some one else can help me out here. Years back I remember watching the News and some where in the northeast they were covering the first day of hunting for fish. I don't know where it was, but it was really funny. Guys sitting on step ladders with guns out in the water. You could really spend money on reloading if you vacationed there.

hooligan1 · March 24, 2012, 08:09 PM

Me and my sons are so good at fishing,, "It's like shooting fish in a barrel"....... no really we are.

Ps I never shot a fish really..

Rebel Pirate · June 2, 2013, 01:09 AM

Hooligan1,

Sorry for replying to such an old thread. I have just started the process of working up a load for my 7mm Rem Mag Wby Vanguard w/160gr AccuBonds. I noted that your work resulted in a COL of 2.800". This seems way below the 3.290" SAAMI maximum. Am I interpreting this correctly? I realize the SAAMI number is a max, but it would seem that this would place the bullet way off the lands (barely poking out of the case if case is 2.5" or little less). Is the 2.800" length actually measured to the ogive and not the bullet tip?

On an additional note, how did you go about measuring the distance to the lands in your rifle? I just purchased the RCBS precision mic and have used it for headspace measurements (my Vanguard appears to a have a chamber 1 to 2 thousandths below SAAMI min), but not for seating depth yet.

Thanks!!

Bart B. · June 2, 2013, 09:35 AM

In my experience wearing out a bunch of barrels and getting exceptional accuracy, as well as that of many others, the single most important thing to do is simple: Shoot bullets larger in diameter than the barrel's groove diameter. At least 3 to 4 ten-thousandths inch; more is just fine.

Once this is done, all sorts of bullet weights and shapes can be shot into sub 1/3 MOA groups at 100 yards from a given barrel. Providing the rifle's well built, has a decent barrel and the correct powder's used in either new cases or proper full length sized ones with good bullets. No case prep, charge weighing or perfectly straight ammo needed. It helps to seat the bullet so it jams gently into the rifling so it's well centered when it starts out; reduce charges 1 to 2 percent to keep pressure back to about normal.

One other very important thing about measuring the accuracy of a given load. If you shoot a few groups with that load and they're not all within 10% of the same size, you're not shooting enough shots per group to realistically represent the accuracy that load shoots. But this is only important if you want to find the accuracy of all shots fired. If you want to find what accuracy level a few shots will produce only once in a while, shoot hundreds of loads into several 3-shot groups then pick the smallest one; forget all those bigger ones shot with that load. Then hope you don't have to shoot many more groups to get another one as small as that one.

hooligan1 · June 2, 2013, 10:11 AM

Rebel that measurement is taken with a Hornady LNL comparator guage and zeroed after its installed on my caliper. Its the way I set up my for all my cartidges...

Nathan · June 2, 2013, 01:06 PM

Sounds like you are honing in on a load!!!

So, how is your FL die setup? Are you using the LNL bushings to dial that in? I find fired -0.001" is pretty good in a bolt gun.

Rebel Pirate · June 2, 2013, 03:30 PM

hooligan1,

Thanks for the explanation, I understand now. I've performed the measurements on my chamber using the RCBS precision mic and Sinclair bullet comparator to find that my length to lands is evidently 2.696". I'll adjust bullet seating depths from there to find my sweet spot!

TATER · June 3, 2013, 03:19 PM

With Swift and Burgers, I had to get new seating plug.. I could not control runout..
This could be some of your trouble.

February 26, 2012, 10:41 AM	#26
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	It is the "bearing surface" that comes to mind, some are longer in this surface than others, and then it all comes down to twist rate,,, that's where I'm at right now so far. and no I need a break from cleaning filthy rifles __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

March 3, 2012, 05:50 PM	#27
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	I took the rifle to the range today to try some new data loads, actually went with the Dan Newberry method mostly, and came up with a powder charge. I have only to adjust AOL to get a real dandy load with the 160 grn Accubond and Imr 7828, and then I'm on to the 140 grn Accubond, to find a dandy mix for it. I will try to get some pics of the targets I shot today, they're pretty decent for a hunting rifle, that only cost $350.00. The main reason to even try this many different bullet weights is just in case I get to go west one day, I want to be ready!! __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

March 17, 2012, 07:28 PM	#30
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Tommorrow I will try the AOL adjustments to this 160 Accubond load,. Then I will try the first load tests in the 140 gr Accubond, using IMR4831.... I got my fingers crossed that both series pan out... if the grouping is cool I'll post it,,,,,, if not,,,, I'll keep working on it! __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

March 18, 2012, 04:44 PM	#32
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	You just might be able to hit something with that one. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 18, 2012, 05:06 PM	#33
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Lookin goooood! 7828 always burned dirty in my 7mm. I ended up with Retumbo as my go-to powder with heavy bullets. Nice job. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

March 3, 2012, 07:25 PM	#28
TheNatureBoy Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Posts: 1,204	Re-22 under a 160 grain anything and don't look back.

March 18, 2012, 05:36 PM	#34
davery25 Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 318	firelapping the bore will likely solve (or at least greatly help with) your copper fouling problem and will improve accuracy as well. www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm is a good read with some accurising tips as well

March 19, 2012, 09:14 PM	#35
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Sorry, hooligan1. You're all out of excuses, if you miss now it's all on you. Ain't it great when a load comes together? __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

March 20, 2012, 11:57 AM	#36
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	hooligan1, Well your load of 61.8gr/IMR-7828 with 160gr AB shoots down the notion that you have to load near max to get accuracy since Nosler start load 60gr/IMR-7828 @ 2859fps and max is 64gr/IMR-7828 @ 3015fps. __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

March 20, 2012, 09:36 PM	#38
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I don't think 3 shot groups are significant enough to base anything on. Shoot at least 15 shots per test group and the probability of that being close to what all shots will perform is about 3 times better.

March 23, 2012, 06:10 PM	#40
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Probably a lot of guys on this forum that have reloaded twice as long as me. I still won't unless I can not get the ammo or it is expensive beyond belief. Factory ammo has come a long way. It is an expensive hobby to reload and if you like to do it go ahead. I also got the bug on occasion and spent way too much time and money trying to make a rifle shoot well. Then after I finally hit the recipe, it was over and I would lose interest in the gun. I have rebarreled thousands of rifles (really) and sometimes you just get a bad barrel and there is nothing to do about it.

March 24, 2012, 06:38 AM	#41
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Today, (after a few "honey do's") I'm going to expound on the data that I found last week testing for loads with the 140 grn Accubonds, and IMR4831... I shot three test loads and none showed any signs of high pressure and were very easy to shoot and one or two loads shot very reasonable... This rifle has a very fine factory barrel, and is accurate with one factory load,(I have only tried the one) and three different bullets thus far.....And yes Gunplummer it does cost money, to achieve higher quality accuracy,, (but it keeps me from spending all my money on fishing)and when it all comes together is really cool. Then I will start working up loads for that little MarkV .243 win. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry. Last edited by hooligan1; March 24, 2012 at 08:08 PM.

March 24, 2012, 04:47 PM	#42
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Maybe some one else can help me out here. Years back I remember watching the News and some where in the northeast they were covering the first day of hunting for fish. I don't know where it was, but it was really funny. Guys sitting on step ladders with guns out in the water. You could really spend money on reloading if you vacationed there.

March 24, 2012, 08:09 PM	#43
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Me and my sons are so good at fishing,, "It's like shooting fish in a barrel"....... no really we are. Ps I never shot a fish really.. __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

June 2, 2013, 01:09 AM	#44
Rebel Pirate Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 2	7mm Rem Mag - Weatherby Vanguard Hooligan1, Sorry for replying to such an old thread. I have just started the process of working up a load for my 7mm Rem Mag Wby Vanguard w/160gr AccuBonds. I noted that your work resulted in a COL of 2.800". This seems way below the 3.290" SAAMI maximum. Am I interpreting this correctly? I realize the SAAMI number is a max, but it would seem that this would place the bullet way off the lands (barely poking out of the case if case is 2.5" or little less). Is the 2.800" length actually measured to the ogive and not the bullet tip? On an additional note, how did you go about measuring the distance to the lands in your rifle? I just purchased the RCBS precision mic and have used it for headspace measurements (my Vanguard appears to a have a chamber 1 to 2 thousandths below SAAMI min), but not for seating depth yet. Thanks!!

June 2, 2013, 09:35 AM	#45
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	In my experience wearing out a bunch of barrels and getting exceptional accuracy, as well as that of many others, the single most important thing to do is simple: Shoot bullets larger in diameter than the barrel's groove diameter. At least 3 to 4 ten-thousandths inch; more is just fine. Once this is done, all sorts of bullet weights and shapes can be shot into sub 1/3 MOA groups at 100 yards from a given barrel. Providing the rifle's well built, has a decent barrel and the correct powder's used in either new cases or proper full length sized ones with good bullets. No case prep, charge weighing or perfectly straight ammo needed. It helps to seat the bullet so it jams gently into the rifling so it's well centered when it starts out; reduce charges 1 to 2 percent to keep pressure back to about normal. One other very important thing about measuring the accuracy of a given load. If you shoot a few groups with that load and they're not all within 10% of the same size, you're not shooting enough shots per group to realistically represent the accuracy that load shoots. But this is only important if you want to find the accuracy of all shots fired. If you want to find what accuracy level a few shots will produce only once in a while, shoot hundreds of loads into several 3-shot groups then pick the smallest one; forget all those bigger ones shot with that load. Then hope you don't have to shoot many more groups to get another one as small as that one. Last edited by Bart B.; June 2, 2013 at 12:09 PM.

June 2, 2013, 10:11 AM	#46
hooligan1 Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2010 Location: Independence Missouri Posts: 4,585	Rebel that measurement is taken with a Hornady LNL comparator guage and zeroed after its installed on my caliper. Its the way I set up my for all my cartidges... __________________ Keep your Axe sharp and your powder dry.

June 2, 2013, 01:06 PM	#47
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,328	Sounds like you are honing in on a load!!! So, how is your FL die setup? Are you using the LNL bushings to dial that in? I find fired -0.001" is pretty good in a bolt gun.

June 2, 2013, 03:30 PM	#48
Rebel Pirate Junior Member Join Date: January 30, 2013 Posts: 2	7mm Rem Mag - Weatherby Vanguard hooligan1, Thanks for the explanation, I understand now. I've performed the measurements on my chamber using the RCBS precision mic and Sinclair bullet comparator to find that my length to lands is evidently 2.696". I'll adjust bullet seating depths from there to find my sweet spot!

June 3, 2013, 03:19 PM	#49
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	With Swift and Burgers, I had to get new seating plug.. I could not control runout.. This could be some of your trouble.