gun strength question and 44 special

[Newton24b]

ive had an on offthing with 44 and 38, they can do things well but have limits that are easy to hit.


in the whole world of the small frame 44 special revolver, its considered safe to avoid anything over 200 grains in order to keep the smaller frames kicking strong. and with a short barrel the extra 40 grains doesnt always give much of an advantage to the user.


look at the charter 44 special, when they came out the standard load was a 240 grain bullet. those loads were fine, but come forward 30 years in time and those are "gonna shake it loose in no time at all'.


but im still trying to figure out what 44 special + P is.

[Hansam]

but im still trying to figure out what 44 special + P is.

44sp +p = 44mag -p ?

[coop2564]

Ive shoot a lot of both out of my Bulldog 240,200 all standard load. 44 spl is kinda hard to find in my neck of the woods, never seen +p. Mine doesnt rattle lol. But tears up bulleyes.

[Edward429451]

but im still trying to figure out what 44 special + P is

If you look in the load books there is a large grey area in between 44 Special & Mag. That's the Special +P area, but not for the Bulldog.

I can easily get +p 44 Special. All I do is take my Bulldog loads and shoot them through my 7.5" Redhawk.

[drail]

A 200 gr. bullet is really all that is necessary in a snub .44 Spl. and some of those 180 gr. high velocity rounds can actually do more damage faster than a 240 gr. load. The forcing cones on these guns are very thin. Hit them with a light fast bullet that is not perfectly centered with the cone and most of them will crack. A 200 gr. .44 Spl. slug traveling at 850 to 900 fps is more than enough energy and is much easier to hit with and the gun and your wrist will last much longer.

[carguychris]

If you look in the load books there is a large grey area in between 44 Special & Mag. That's the Special +P area, but not for the Bulldog.

.44Spl+P is also a euphemism used by ammo companies for what amounts to a .44Mag "Low Recoil - Low Flash - Short Barrel" load.

Most .44Mag factory ammo is loaded fairly hot and uses slow powder to maximize velocity out of a 6"+ barrel. Out of a short-barreled carry gun, this yields noise and muzzle flash levels like naval artillery. Commercial .44Spl+P SD loads keep things much more sane, especially when used indoors, yet still hit pretty hard.

These loads are also unsafe for the Bulldog, along with other medium-frame .44Spl guns and many older large-frame ones. They're generally intended for .44Mag firearms.

[drail]

Then they're not really .44 Spl. are they? A +P designation is nothing but marketing tripe and an attempt to make people believe that their gun needs more power and all you gotta do is load it with these here "hot" loads. It's a lot like all the people who insist on running premium grade gasoline in their car that was designed to run on 87 octane. Simple waste of money.

[Nanuk]

Drail hit the nail on the head. The same phenomenon with the 357 magnum, the heavier bullets are less abusive to the gun. This of course does not mean you can use heavy bullets loaded to insane pressure levels safely. For the 44 special I would stick to a 200-240 LSWC and be happy.

[Seaman]

“im still trying to figure out what 44 special + P is. “ [Newton24b]

Buffalo Bore sell what they call Heavy .44 Special Ammo - 255 gr SWC (Keith-type) GC (1,000fps/ME 566 ft lbs) for big game up to 500 lbs, which qualifies as +P.

Don’t have a CA Bulldog, but for the S&W 396 NG, a light 24 oz snubbie, there are only 2 choices available from local LGSs. That would be the Black Hills 210 gr lfp which is pretty much a cowboy load, 700 fps, old-timer (store clerk) said it would stop a wild west adversary, not likely to face anyone that tough, and Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr boutique tulip tip slug moving at 900 fps, which is my current carry ammo, have no idea how effective it is, have not tested it against various media (its pricy).

For practice, reload with Bullseye powder under a 240 gr jacketed lfp bullet, which kicks harder than the Black Hills and Hornady, so I have yet to find the right powder load. All 3 are very accurate.

There used to be some loads listed for H110 powder for the 44 spl but its not listed in my new book. They would definitely be +P. However H110 powder is relatively slow burning, powerful (heavy recoil) and reserved for 44 Magnum. I’ll stick with the Bullseye till I find that sweet load.

[newfrontier45]

There is no official designation for .44Spl +P and not really an unofficial designation. There is the Skeeter load, which is slightly over SAAMI pressures and consists of a 250gr SWC at 950fps. Then there is the famous Keith load consisting of a 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi. Neither load should be fired through a Bulldog. The Keith load in particular should be restricted to post-war S&W N-frames, post-war Colt SAA's, domestic USFA's, Ruger Blackhawks (factory and custom) and obviously any .44Mag.

Most .44Mag factory ammo is loaded fairly hot and uses slow powder to maximize velocity out of a 6"+ barrel. Out of a short-barreled carry gun, this yields noise and muzzle flash levels like naval artillery.

The same powders yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. Whether it's a 2" snub, 6" N-frame or 20" rifle.

It's a lot like all the people who insist on running premium grade gasoline in their car that was designed to run on 87 octane.

Some newer cars will run on 87 octane but run better on premium. That is because their computer controlled ignition retards the timing to prevent pinging with 87 octane but will advance it for better performance with premium.

Simple waste of money.

Hogwash, it is a very poor analogy. It is simple fact, proved by Elmer Keith 80yrs ago, that his 1200fps load was more effective on game than standard pressure loads. Has nothing to do with marketing. I reckon the .357's effectiveness over the .38Spl is just "marketing hype"???

[carguychris]

The same powders yield the highest velocities, regardless of barrel length. Whether it's a 2" snub, 6" N-frame or 20" rifle.

I agree that the slower .44Mag powders generally maximize velocities regardless of barrel length.

I didn't write- or intentionally imply- that faster powder would yield faster velocities. My point is that faster powder will yield less flash and noise, which is generally true. Reread my post.

Most shooters purchasing commercial .44Spl+P SD loads are fully aware that the ammo won't perform nearly as well as full-house Magnums; the goal is to use a load that's much less punishing to the shooter. .44Spl offers faster follow-up shots and reduced chances of being dazzled and suffering permanent hearing loss if the gun is fired in a dark interior hallway with no hearing protection.

[drail]

Hogwash indeed. Like most of your post. I never said you couldn't load your ammo HOT, I said there is no need to. And Elmer wasn't thinking about little alloy snubs when he developed his loads either.

[PawPaw]

I like running the Skeeter load in my .44, but I admit that I don't have any Special chambered revolvers. Mine is .44 magnum, but the Skeeter load is good for about 95% of the shooting I do with that revolver. My chronograph puts it across the screen at 971 fps and I'm very pleased with that loading.

[Mello2u]

Newton24b

gun strength question and 44 special

but im still trying to figure out what 44 special + P is.

I can not find any authoritative information on a .44 Special +P.

Apparently, Buffalo Bore sell a "Heavy" .44 Special loading with a 255 gr. Keith style SWC bullet that has a muzzle velocity around 1,000fps/M.E.566 ft.lbs.; which they say can be fired "in every .44 Special or .44 Magnum gun made EXCEPT CHARTER ARMS .44 SPECIAL BULLDOG."

If I owned either a S&W model 21 or 24 I would prefer this Buffalo Bore loading to the much lighter factory loadings that use 200 gr. bullets @ 850 - 900 fps.


SAAMI list the .44 Special with a pressure up to 15,500.

[roaddog28]

Hi,
I can't find any information on 44 +P either. Considering that SAAMI specs for a standard pressure round is 15,500, if +p ammo was made from a ammo maker I would say it would be about 10% higher. Around 17,000 to 17,500. Almost the same as 38 special specs. I feel as long as you load 200 gr at about 900 fps you won't hurt your revolver. Like Drail said, stay away from light gr rounds at high velocity. Also I would not use H110 powder.
Good luck,
Howard

[warningshot]

Show me the man who pumps 44 Remington Magnum thru a DA Revolver on a regular basis. EhhaaHaaa.

Want to enjoy .44 shooting? Use 200 or 240 cast bullets traveling at 800 to 900 fps, and have fun without all the drama.

[Jim March]

My opinion on the Charter .44 is this: if you like it, get the 4" barrel version. (Or 5", there's been a few made.) It won't be all that hard to pack with the right rig, and something important will happen: the Blazer-brand 200gr rounds will start to "wake up" ballistically - and that's a really nice slug featuring the 200gr Gold Dot large-cavity variant.

From a 2" I don't trust that low-performance round to work right. 3", maybe. 4" and it ought to do just fine as a street defense load that won't tear those guns up at all.

There's probably other mild 44Spl loads where it's the same basic deal but the Blazer 200 Gold Dot is the one I'd trust.

[newfrontier45]

I never said you couldn't load your ammo HOT, I said there is no need to.

Lots of folks would disagree with you. Who do you think it was that finally got Ruger to produce a mid-frame .44Spl if it were not fanciers of the cartridge and ALL of its potential??? Sorry sir but it is well proven that getting a cast bullet up to 1200fps makes for a better killer. Period.

And Elmer wasn't thinking about little alloy snubs when he developed his loads either.

No, he wasn't and neither was I when I typed that post, WITH an important stipulation about which guns were safe for which loads.

Show me the man who pumps 44 Remington Magnum thru a DA Revolver on a regular basis.

I do and I bought a Dillon 650 just for that purpose.

[rclark]

My CA Bulldog gets 'standard' pressure reloads for my CC use. Wouldn't dream of anything hotter in it.... Nor is it needed for town personal defense. Heading into the hills, I open pack a different revolver.

But on the otherhand, my other Ruger .44Spec flattops and New Vaquero get the Skeeter load almost exclusively with some Keith 2400 loads once in awhile. Makes the .44Spec a very versitile cartridge... from 700fps to 1200fps which will do the job. Now above 1200fps (get into magnum territory) I reach for a .44Mag, .45 Colt (FA or Ruger RH/BH), or a .454.....