CCW 1911

[thesheepdog]

I have a Taurus PT1911 (no bashing please)-and let me first start off that I love the gun as it is the most accurate handgun I have shot.
Secondly I finally got a CCW holster for it (Uncle Mikes IWB LH holster) and decided to carry lastnight. Let me tell you, a 1911 is so much more comfortable to carry due to it's slim profile-compared to my SAXD .357.

I paid $12 for the holster and bought a box of Cor-Bon 185gr +P HP's for it and I feel more confident with this CCW setup.

I have one of those fancy leather holsters for my .357 and the smoothness of the draw is nothing compared to my new $12 holster-it's like tires on ice slick, but the gun stays holstered till it's time to pull it out.

So why I am posting this? Well for one, I like to brag on good products; secondly I wanted to share that even a cheap holster can be a good thing and possibly a life saver.

Also, I am curious which draw position is the best in general?

I find that strong side carry is ideal for speed but is sticks out more when concealed.
SOB carry is a bit slower-still faster than my .357 holster-and concealment is better; but when driving my car it's very annoying to have a chunk of metal pressed between you and the seat of your car.
Cross Draw didn't even work as the grip on my 1911 stuck out like a sore thumb.

I am a thin muscular build so I don't have much meat on my torso for a cushion to compress the gun against me.

A little help would be nice from more experience CCW's.

Thanks.

[Scout]

I like to carry my 1911 OWB on my right hip. It's slim profile makes for a good CC, but the size of it can make for some uncomfortable car rides.

[pax]

If it sticks out on your strong side, it's still sticking out when you SOB carry. People usually think SOB is "better concealed" simply because they can't see their own backsides!

What brand of "fancy leather holster" are you using for the .357?

A solid, well-designed holster worn on a sturdy belt designed for concealed carry simply won't allow the gun to stick out even on your strong side. If your holster isn't concealing well in that position, it's either not a good holster or you are using an inappropriate belt to hold it in place.

A good belt makes all the difference in the world, even with a marginal holster. I frankly think a marginal holster on a good belt is a better concealment rig than a good holster on a marginal belt.

Fair disclosure: I can't/don't carry strong side, but in the appendix position. That's because I have girl-shaped hips. Moving the holster forward gives me a much more comfortable ride. When I carry on the hip, the grips get driven into my ribs because my hip curve drives the barrel outward. But I don't expect that you would have that problem!

YMMV.

pax

[MLeake]

... and I don't expect it to arrive for another three weeks or so, but I recently ordered a Beltster. Reviews have been positive, and I like the concept. We'll see if it works when I get here.

http://www.banderagunleather.com/

Meanwhile, I carry my CBOB strongside 3:30-4:00 IWB in a Sam Andrews MacDaniel II or OWB in a Sam Andrews paddle. (He covers the kydex paddle in leather; I hate bare kydex against my skin, even through a layer of fabric.)

http://andrewsleather.com/macdaniel2.htm

I've also ordered a Commander holster component for my Sam Andrews Monarch modular shoulder rig. Should arrive in the next few days, and I'll see how that works. (Jacket weather is upon us, so more options open up.)

http://andrewsleather.com/monarch.htm

Sam's holsters are comfortable; wet-molded to your gun model; extremely durable; and they conceal well. Plus, I know Sam, and he's a very good guy.

[thesheepdog]

Pax,

I have a Desantis IWB holster for my XD.
What do you mean by a good belt? What is the critieria for a good belt?

Does anyone carry with the barrel inline with your femur/thigh? Kind of a partial front carry?

[BikerRN]

Not to be rude, but as a 1911 packer I do not consider the Uncle Mike's line of holsters to be "good".

I carry at 3:00 - 3:30 in a Blade Tech IWB Holster and use a Wilderness 5 Stitch Instructor Belt, or a Bruce Gibson Gunbelt. Quality gear makes reholstering after the draw easier and safer, as well as assissting in carrying a bigger gun than what many think they can carry effectively. I have a short list of leather benders that I recommend, and find quality gear to be as important as a quality gun.

I have no problem recommending the following, as I have and use the following gear, depending on what gun I'm packing that day:

Milt Sparks
Mitch Rosen
Matt del Fatti
Kramer
Blade Tech
Raven Concealment Systems

"Good" gear is not something found in most Gun Shops, and yes, you will have to place an order and wait for it. It's worth the wait IMO.

Biker

[Huntergirl]

An Uncle Mikes can be good if it works for him, and doesn't stick out.

[thesheepdog]

Not to be rude, but as a 1911 packer I do not consider the Uncle Mike's line of holsters to be "good".

So you're saying your holsters are "good" and not "excellent"?
I never said my holster was top of the line; I said it is merely "good" and enables me to draw lightning fast compared to my desantis holster.

An Uncle Mikes can be good if it works for him, and doesn't stick out.

Thanks Huntergirl, at least someone appreciates a good deal and a decent product.
It works for me. And once Pax gets me the criteria of a good belt, i will be able to reevaluate my opinion on my holster.
I planto attend to tactical handgun course next year (next month hahaha) and I'll see how the Uncle Mikes IWB holster holds up.

[azredhawk44]

Sheepdog:

If you've never experienced what a top-tier holster and top-tier belt can provide, you just don't have a framework of reference to discredit the advice given by BikerRN.

I used to be a cheapskate with belts and holsters, also. After all, $60 belts and $75-$100 holsters took a serious bite out of my ammo budget, let alone my next wad of cash to go out and buy another gun... and then I have to buy $75 holsters for other guns! That's nuts!

Or so I thought until I started carrying, everyday, absolutely no excuses.

A GOOD holster and GOOD belt keep the pistol high and tight against your side. This aids in control in a struggle. This aids in predictable location during a draw. This aids in consistent concealment against the profile of your body.

I've got Uncle Mikes holsters. Nowadays, there's only two I use anymore. One is an OWB model for my 4" Redhawk. The other is a pocket holster for my J-frame revolver.

I'll never again use an Uncle Mikes (or a Fobus either) for a daily carry holster.

I'll also never use a JC-Penny or similar belt as a gunbelt. I've got two from The Beltman (http://www.thebeltman.net) that are absolutely fantastic. I also have a good web-style outdoors belt from Wilderness. The key to a good belt is stiffness.

Get a good rig. Then compare the draw from a good rig, compared to your department store belt and Uncle Mike's holster.

You'll get it then.

[MLeake]

Some criteria for a good belt:

Adequate stiffness, so it doesn't get twisted out of shape by the weight of your gun and holster.

Adequate length, with whatever rigs you will use. A belt that might be used with an IWB rig will need to be a bit longer than one that will only be used with OWB. Note that you will need additional length (in fractions of inches) for each additional piece of gear you might sling on it (mag pouches flashlight holders, etc).

Adequate width, usually 1.5 to 1.75 inches. This helps distribute total weight around your hips. I like 1.75, but have to check any pants I buy to make sure the belt loops will accommodate that width.

A stiff, wide belt minimizes flex and sag, keeping the gun and holster in a relatively stable, secure position.

SimplyRugged has some solid, fairly inexpensive belts that can be dressed up to order with border stamping and other touches. Other holster makers also offer belts in various styles and price ranges.

I was really tempted by a tiger shark belt Sam Andrews showed me at his shop; he demonstrated its toughness by scratching a car key over it several times, without leaving a mark. At $300, it was out of my range due to other recent purchases, but one of these years...

[thesheepdog]

Azredhawk,

I am not bashing a quality holster. I would absolutely love a quality holster! But me-like you-can't always go out and by the best right at any given moment. For now, the UM holster works as a temporary setup till the money comes in for a new holster.

[KyJim]

I like carrying strong side at about 3:30 with a forward canted holster. I have three different holsters for my 1911s that I carry with in this manner. You don't have to pay an arm and a leg for a decent holster. I have a Rosen Premier Express Line I bought for less than $100. Don Hume, Galco, and Gould and Goodrich make mass produced holsters that are nice, solid holsters.

A good gun belt does make a world of difference. You have to pay, but you don't have to pay outrageous amounts. I have belts by The Beltman and D.M. Bullard that work very well and are reasonably priced.

[WC145]

It's good that you've found a set up that works for you. I hope you've tried the Cor-Bon ammo to be sure your gun runs with it.

I carry 1911's but only OWB in the 3:00-4:00 area.
If I'm carrying a fullsize gun concealed I use an Andy Langlois scabbard and belt. Andy's gear is very reasonable but very high quality, comfortable to wear, and easy to conceal. The design keeps the gun nice and snug so it doesn't stick out.
As of late I've been carrying a Fusion 1911 CCO (commander slide/officer frame) in a Kramer pancake style with a Cobra Gunskin belt. Again, the gun is kept nice and tight to the body and well supported by the belt.

Good stuff doesn't have to be expensive, I buy stuff on sale and also good used gear. I paid $50 for the Kramer off the classified section of gun forum in as new condition. Andy Langlois charges $55 for his holsters and they are easily worth double that. It pays to do your home work and to look around.

[FoxtrotRomeo]

Let me tell you, a 1911 is so much more comfortable to carry due to it's slim profile-compared to my SAXD .357.

I keep telling people, Glad somebody finally noticed besides myself and nutnfancy on youtube.

And yes the PT-1911 is actually quite accurate, I own one myself. I use an IWB clip on black leather holster by Tagua. It's cheap and the thick clip holds either of my 1911s in there quite well.

I carry at the base of the back. With the barrel at a vertical 90 degrees I have found this does not bother me. I feel it conceals better than other positions because of other reasons.

Yes you can still print when it's behind your back, however you have to understand that most people will try to dismiss what they see as anything that may "make more sense". The only ones who won't will be LEOs and maybe a few of us who carry ourselves.

But I apply some psychology to how I carry. Others may not. An easy way to do this is "How would this look to a firearms ignorant person who does not know what it looks like to be looking at a pistol that is concealed?"

I understand others may debate my methods here but in true Foxtrot Romeo style I'll just say,I don't care. lol I really don't. This is what I do. It may not be what you do and that's ok.

[thesheepdog]

Words of wisdom foxtrot romeo. I like all of you guys suggestions. I may get one of the suggested holsters.

[TacticalDefense1911]

My Kimber Custom II is the gun I carry the most often. I carry it in a Brommeland gunleather Max Con V IWB holster with a 1.50" belt from thebeltman.net. It is amazing what a great holster and belt will do to aid concealing a large framed gun like a 1911. A dedicated gunbelt is a must in my opinion if you want to carry a heavy gun like the 1911 around all day. I also like a holster with belt loops that are located far apart to aid in distributing the weight of the gun and I also like a holster that has a guard between the gun and your body so that the gun does not rub on you all day.

www.brommelandgunleather.com

[MLeake]

... by whatever name it is called, sometimes Bodyshield, etc...

... serves two good purposes.

1) It protects you from the gun; no sharp edges or protrusions digging into you.

2) It protects the gun from you; less body moisture makes direct contact with the gun.

[Frank Ettin]

A good belt is usually double thickness and reasonably stiff. I use belts from El Paso Saddlery, Milt Sparks, Galco and Haugen, and sometimes a 5 stitch instructor's belt from The Wilderness. They are all stout, 1.5 inches wide and hold the holster firmly, without twisting or sagging.

A good leather holster will pull the gun into the body and thus help conceal it. I use a Milt Sparks Versa Max 2 for IWB carry and a Milt Sparks Axiom for OWB carry. Both style holsters hold the gun in tightly to my body.

A Milt Sparks Versa Max 2



Wearing an H&K P7M8 in a Milt Sparks VM2





A Milt Sparks Axiom



Wearing a Nighthawk Talon III (Commander size top end on an Officer size grip frame) in a Milt Sparks Axiom

[frumious]

I never had much luck with Uncle Mikes holsters for CC. My problems with them were (1) the plastic clip was not long enough to hook around the bottom edge of a belt, and (2) the clip position caused the holster (and therefore the gun) to ride too high and flop around. The gun in this case is a Kahr CW9.

I like Galco stuff. My first Galco holster was a Jak Slide, which isn't much of a holster:



As minimalist as it is, though, it is a great holster for me. I carry it on a 1 1/2 inch wide leather belt I bought from some place in the mall. It is a casual leather belt, not especially stiff. More or less a plain piece of leather about 3/16" thick with no stitching. For me a stiff belt is overrated.

I am 6' 0" and 220 lbs. I wear size 38 jeans. I am not skinny by any means. I have fairly well-established middle-age spread going on :-) For my body type there are two things more important than the stiffness of the belt. One is how low I wear my pants. Two is how tight I wear the belt when the holster is in place. If my jeans come up past my hips, then a reasonably wide belt worn reasonably snug will cause the gun to lean in towards me. That, coupled with a holster that rids low-ish and stays still in all directions on the belt. makes a good setup for me. I carry at about 2-2:30 (appendix).

Today's low-rise jeans make things harder. Or if I wear regular jeans, but wear them down on my hips. These cause the gun to lean out and flop around. Again, I am speaking for my body type.

A good setup is a combination of a lot of things:

Weapon shape/weight
Body shape
Holster
Belt
Pants
Shirt
Fit of all clothing
Level of comfort desired

No one size fits all. These are just my observations from my holster search.

-cls

[redstategunnut]

The OP indicates he likes to carry his Taurus in an Uncle Mike's holster on a generic belt. Subsequent posters have recommended an investment in a quality holster and belt. This is good advice.

[thesheepdog]

Now let me ask you this: Do any of you guys have to wear a size or two bigger in jeans to conceal you pistols? I've only been carrying a little over a year so I need some professional advice here.

What about IWB carry vs OWB? What are the advantages and disadvantages?

[pax]

sheepdog,

Others did a good job of answering the question about belts. Generally speaking, a belt not designed for concealed carry will not be as comfortable or hold the gun as well concealed as one that is so designed. You can always crank up the tension by pulling the belt a notch or two tighter, but that tends to be much more uncomfortable than wearing a belt stiff enough not to need that treatment -- and if the belt is unsturdy enough, even on full tension it will still hold the holstered firearm unstably and poorly concealed.

As far as carrying SOB, I don't recommend it and know of almost no reputable trainers who do. There are several reasons:

• In the SOB position, the gun tends to be poorly concealed.
  
• With the gun behind your back (and poorly concealed), it becomes a tempting target for gun grabbers -- and it's very difficult to defend against a gun grab that comes from behind you. It can be done, but simply isn't as readily defendable as a gun carried in a less awkward position.
  
• It's a very slow and awkward draw, one that begins by putting yourself almost in an elbow lock.
  
• That slow and awkward draw cannot be practiced on most ranges; even very permissive ranges that do allow people to use their holsters rarely allow SOB because the draw will sweep people around you.
  
• If you get into a car accident with that solid piece of metal sitting directly over your spinal cord, you'll be in a bad position. Similarly, if you get slammed against a wall during an altercation, you can very easily be paralyzed by the force multiplier riding directly over your spinal cord. If you trip and fall on your backside, landing on that force multiplier is very dangerous. This risk is a serious enough concern that most LE depts have policies to prevent officers from carrying anything at all over the spinal cord, including handcuff cases.

Looking at the IWB vs OWB question, here are a few points to consider.

• OWB carry tends to be more comfortable for most people, since it holds the firearm outside the clothing.
  
• With OWB, you won't need any extra room inside your trousers for the firearm -- and that often means a savings for someone just getting started with concealed carry, as you don't yet have a wardrobe to match your lifestyle change.
  
• IWB tends to be better concealed, sometimes much better concealed.
  
• IWB is more forgiving of bad belts -- a non-trivial concern for someone dealing with budget issues. People often can't afford to buy all their gear at once, and IWB tends to be a bit more forgiving during the time frame between deciding to carry and deciding to carry comfortably.
  
• IWB often requires fewer cover garments; some people wear their IWB with just a single (loose) shirt, with the holstered gun up against skin.
  
• OWB requires a longer cover garment, and tends to be less forgiving of firearms with longer barrels because the bottom of the holster will often peek out from under garments that aren't long enough to cover the firearm with a little room to spare.
  
• IWB doesn't limit barrel length quite so much (though this factor depends heavily on holster design and also where on your waist you decide to carry the firearm).

There are many many good holster designs available in both IWB and OWB designs, so mostly it's just a matter of finding something that works well for you. I personally own both, but almost never wear OWB except at the range.

Hope this helps.

pax

[tackdriver]

I have used the uncle mike's IWB holsters with a little success with revolvers. The cylinder seems to help it keep the gun sandwiched in there. The plastic clip is almost worthless, however. I have found that sitting up and down was enough to move it off the belt.

I don't think you have to have an $80 gun belt to have success. A purpose-constructed belt sure does help, though.

In any case, you have entered the long journey of finding out what carry rig works for you. Consider how differently everyone is shaped, your clothing style, what movements you're going through in a day, just HOW concealed the pistol must be and how accessible it must be and you've got a lot to figure out.

All that said, the consensus seems to be that the Milt Sparks VMII is the best for most people. There are a few similar designs (though they don't look the same) that some people prefer. These are the crossbreed supertuck and those like it. If you want to try one for not as much as you'd pay for the other designs, I recommend the kholster (kholster.com). They're $50 shipped and you're probably going to want to alter the cut of the leather backing to a "combat cut" like the supertuck, but it's something that takes 2 minutes, a sharpie and a sharp pair of quality scissors. Better yet, wait for the kholster to go on sale. They recently sold them for $36. Every couple of months it seems they have one sale or another.

I have some experience carrying a govt-sized 1911 (even the Taurus, which I also found to be a GREAT shooter). I have gone back and forth on the matter and settled on the fact that, for ME, there's nothing to do but dress around it. No matter where I put it or how I cant it, that butt is going to stick out if I do anything but stand up ramrod straight. And it's my opinion that with the length of the gun, it's much more comfortable to conceal OWB. Your mileage may vary.

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by thesheepdog

...Do any of you guys have to wear a size or two bigger in jeans to conceal you pistols?...

I tend to buy my trousers on the loose side anyway, and that definitely helps with IWB carry.

Pax did a fine job of covering the respective advantages and disadvantages of IWB vs. OWB carry.

[thesheepdog]

Very good info Pax! Thanks for the references.