Can you mix powder

grubbylabs · November 27, 2009, 08:13 PM

I have a few questions about Powder, one can you mix 3F and 2F and second can you mix Hogdon 777 with real black powder? I have 3F real Black Powder and just bought some 2F 777. Can't believe I paid 27.00 for a pound of it, I am on vacation her in Utah. AT home in Pocky Idaho it is 16.00 a pound.

mykeal · November 27, 2009, 09:16 PM

Yes, you can mix them. But, why?

Pahoo · November 27, 2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Yes, you can mix them. But, why?

Exactly ??? ...

Be Safe !!!

B.L.E. · November 27, 2009, 09:34 PM

Sure. when you buy "3f" black powder, you get everything that was too big to be 4f to everything that was too small to be 2f, in other words, you are burning a mixture anyway.
Lots of folks use a small priming booster of black powder to help get the harder to ignite black powder substitutes to go off, especially in flintlocks.

grubbylabs · November 27, 2009, 10:22 PM

Just curios I have the two powder containers in the same box and wanted to know just how careful I needed to be about them mixing.

grubbylabs · November 27, 2009, 11:30 PM

So does the ratio matter could I mix it however I wanted to if I did? or can you only use a small portion of one to the other? I am not really looking to mix it but just want to know, curios is all.

long rider · November 27, 2009, 11:46 PM

I would not mix 777 with real black, read the label
on the 777 ?????????

long rider · November 28, 2009, 12:04 AM

I just checked a old loading data for T7, and hodgdon
says you can use 5 grns of real blk as a starter for
flintlocks but never mix powders together, but i do mix
3f and 4f real blk works good in cap and ball revolvers.

shortwave · November 28, 2009, 04:42 AM

Unlike bp substitutes such as Pyrodex or American Pioneer, T7 is not a one to one comparison with ffg bp. T7 is hotter than ffg black powder. I wouldn`t take say a half container of ffg bp and mix with half container of T7. In volume amounts, since fffg is smaller(more grns. per set measurement) I don`t know how much hotter(if any) T7 would be than fffg. One thing for sure is if you mixed fffg and T7 in the same jug the fffg would settle to the bottom as its finer. I`m in the "but why" camp.

mykeal · November 28, 2009, 06:51 AM

Quote:

So does the ratio matter could I mix it however I wanted to if I did? or can you only use a small portion of one to the other?

The single most important thing to remember when shooting black powder is to be consistent. That is, once you've determined what load works best for your particular gun, ALWAYS load the same materials the same way each time.

Now, applying that to your question: yes, the ratio matters. Changing the ratio will change the maximum pressure reached and the amount of time it takes to reach that maximum, which in turn will affect the velocity, energy and flight path characteristics of the projectile. In short, everything having to do with accuracy. How much it changes depends on how much the ratio changed.

Is one ratio "more accurate" than the other? Perhaps, but not necessarily. It's just different, and once you've determined how to shoot the gun with one "ratio", changing that ratio will affect (maybe a little and maybe a lot) the results and you won't be hitting where you're aiming.

horseman308 · November 28, 2009, 07:19 AM

I know it can be done, as others here have indicated. However, I have never found any reason to mix powders. The only reason I can think of is if you have absolutely no way of buying real black powder, but you still have some on hand and need to use it to ignite synthetic stuff. But you can always mail order it, usually cheaper as long as you get it in bulk. So, I really can't think of any reason why you would ever need to. But then of course, how often do we do this stuff because we need to?

grubbylabs · November 28, 2009, 10:24 AM

Thanks for all the reply's, I don't think I am going to mix them, I was just standing there holding both cans and wondering what if? But like many of you said why would you? I have the 3f because the shop that sold the gun said to use 3f my brother in law uses 3f, both say 100-120grns of 3f. CVA says no more than 80grns though so I thought I would try the 2f and see how it works since CVA says I can use up to 100grns of 2f. Since I am new to all this I still have tons of questions. I did not realize how different the 3f and 2f would be just having a few granules in my hand, did not realize there would be such a noticeable difference.

shortwave · November 28, 2009, 10:53 AM

grubbylabs, mykeal explained it better then I did. You have to have consistency when bp shooting. When you find the load your CVA likes, shoot that load. Same amount of powder,boolit ,ramrod pressure when seating boolit and swabbing between shots. Consistency is everything. Also, again remember when shooting loose T7 reduce your powder charge by 15% of what you would normally shoot of bp. example: if shooting 100grns. bp shoot 85grns T7.

grubbylabs · November 28, 2009, 11:48 AM

I have not even found a load I like I am having a hard time getting out to 100 yards with the 3f and I am at 100grns with it so I am thinking it would be a good thing to back of the 3f and go with a 2f powder.

shortwave · November 28, 2009, 05:28 PM

Where are you grouping at 50 yds.? Best to start there and work out to 100yds. Also what load(powder amount and boolit) are you using?

Tom2 · November 28, 2009, 06:03 PM

A technical issue-BP is considered an explosive and regulated as such, I think the substitutes might be more like considered flammable solids, as smokeless powder is. If you mix BP into your sub powder, then I am pretty sure it will be considered an explosive then, even if it is not pure. That might affect transportation and things? Also you are really playing home chemist mixing BP and subs fully together. No telling what the effects of long term storage of the mixture might be. Summation, sounds like risky monkey business, to me.

grubbylabs · November 28, 2009, 08:36 PM

I have gone from 50 grns to 100 and it groups ok at 50 but even if I max out my sight adjustment it does not bring my point of impact up far enough to hit center.

And no I am not playing home chemist, I am just curios about the stuff is all.

shortwave · November 29, 2009, 07:40 AM

What boolit/weight are you shooting? What caliber Cva? How many grns. of powder are you grouping best at 50yds? You`re zero`ed at 50 yds getting a good tight group/dead bullseye? Where do you hit at 75 or 100 yds? To eliminate the slight possibility of bad/weak fffg powder, try about 70 grns 777 at 50,75 and 100yds. Make sure you`ve got a big enough piece of cardboard behind your 75 and 100yd targets to show where your hitting. If your grouping good but low at 75-100yds and can`t adjust your rear sight low enough, it may be possible your rear sight or barrel mounting may be defective from the factory. It`s rare but happens, ask me how I know!

B.L.E. · November 29, 2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

If your grouping good but low at 75-100yds and can`t adjust your rear sight low enough, it may be possible your rear sight or barrel mounting may be defective from the factory.

I think you got it backwards, it should be if you can't adjust your rear sight high enough.

You can also file down the front sight, lowering the front sight raises the group.

shortwave · November 29, 2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

I think you got it backwards, it should be if you can`t adjust your rear sight high enough.

, Your absolutely correct B.L.E. Thats what happens when I try to start thinking to early in the morning. Thanks.

Quote:

You can also file down the front sight, lowering the front sight raises the group

Or cut and place shim stock under rear sight.

grubbylabs · November 30, 2009, 01:07 AM

I have been slowly filing down the front sight. It does group well at 50 or 100 it just runs out of adjustment to hit the center of the target at 100, 50 grns of 3f was doing great at 50yards but even up to 100 grns does not get me high enough to hit center at 100. I have been using a 220 grn round ball and 3f black powder. I just got some 2f triple 7 from hogdon I played with it a little on saturday but I only had about 25 yrds to shoot in. I did notice that it was a little slower to take off though.

shortwave · November 30, 2009, 04:56 AM

Did you get my P.M.??? What model CVA are you shooting? Whats the ball size(i.e..490 or .495)? What patching material are you useing? What`s the twist on the barrel? Did you use a large cardboard target backer so you can see all shots at 100yds.? How many inchs apart were they? If your shooting patched roundball in a 1x28 twist barrel, put the file down, most likely your not shooting any kind of groups at 100yds. Get some sabots and try them. The Hornady SST`s 250grn. sabots are about $14. Your front sight will be more.

grubbylabs · November 30, 2009, 12:25 PM

Shortwave,

I am shooting a trade rifle and I am not sure of how many twists are in the barrel, but it is a .54 and I am shooting a .530 ball and a .015 patch.

shortwave · November 30, 2009, 02:16 PM

What kind of primer are you using? Not quite sure what you mean by 'trade rifle'. To find out your rate of twist put a cleaning jag with patch on your ramrod. Insert ramrod, mark a line on ramrod, slowly pull ramrod out paying attention to line and to how many revolutions ramrod makes. A 1x28 twist is 1 twist in 28 inchs,1x48 is 1 twist in 48 inchs etc.

grubbylabs · November 30, 2009, 05:32 PM

"trade rifle" is what it is called kinda like a Hawkins only it is a trade rifle, It has a 1x48 twist from what I could find from a quick internet search.

From what I can find on the internet it was a popular rifle for tradesmen and Indians. Basically born out of the fur trade. I was using CCI's now I am using Vorderlader-Zundhutchen. I was told they are hotter.

November 27, 2009, 08:13 PM	#1
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Can you mix powder I have a few questions about Powder, one can you mix 3F and 2F and second can you mix Hogdon 777 with real black powder? I have 3F real Black Powder and just bought some 2F 777. Can't believe I paid 27.00 for a pound of it, I am on vacation her in Utah. AT home in Pocky Idaho it is 16.00 a pound.

November 27, 2009, 11:46 PM	#7
long rider Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 669	I would not mix 777 with real black, read the label on the 777 ????????? __________________ Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

November 28, 2009, 12:04 AM	#8
long rider Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 669	I just checked a old loading data for T7, and hodgdon says you can use 5 grns of real blk as a starter for flintlocks but never mix powders together, but i do mix 3f and 4f real blk works good in cap and ball revolvers. __________________ Sod Buster Tried To Pull On Willson.

November 28, 2009, 07:19 AM	#11
horseman308 Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2009 Location: Maryland Posts: 526	I know it can be done, as others here have indicated. However, I have never found any reason to mix powders. The only reason I can think of is if you have absolutely no way of buying real black powder, but you still have some on hand and need to use it to ignite synthetic stuff. But you can always mail order it, usually cheaper as long as you get it in bulk. So, I really can't think of any reason why you would ever need to. But then of course, how often do we do this stuff because we need to? __________________ You only take one shot at a time - make it count.

November 28, 2009, 06:03 PM	#16
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	A technical issue-BP is considered an explosive and regulated as such, I think the substitutes might be more like considered flammable solids, as smokeless powder is. If you mix BP into your sub powder, then I am pretty sure it will be considered an explosive then, even if it is not pure. That might affect transportation and things? Also you are really playing home chemist mixing BP and subs fully together. No telling what the effects of long term storage of the mixture might be. Summation, sounds like risky monkey business, to me. __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

November 27, 2009, 09:16 PM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Yes, you can mix them. But, why?

November 27, 2009, 09:34 PM	#4
B.L.E. Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX Posts: 2,603	Sure. when you buy "3f" black powder, you get everything that was too big to be 4f to everything that was too small to be 2f, in other words, you are burning a mixture anyway. Lots of folks use a small priming booster of black powder to help get the harder to ignite black powder substitutes to go off, especially in flintlocks.

November 27, 2009, 10:22 PM	#5
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Just curios I have the two powder containers in the same box and wanted to know just how careful I needed to be about them mixing.

November 27, 2009, 11:30 PM	#6
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	So does the ratio matter could I mix it however I wanted to if I did? or can you only use a small portion of one to the other? I am not really looking to mix it but just want to know, curios is all.

November 28, 2009, 04:42 AM	#9
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Unlike bp substitutes such as Pyrodex or American Pioneer, T7 is not a one to one comparison with ffg bp. T7 is hotter than ffg black powder. I wouldn`t take say a half container of ffg bp and mix with half container of T7. In volume amounts, since fffg is smaller(more grns. per set measurement) I don`t know how much hotter(if any) T7 would be than fffg. One thing for sure is if you mixed fffg and T7 in the same jug the fffg would settle to the bottom as its finer. I`m in the "but why" camp.

November 28, 2009, 10:24 AM	#12
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Thanks for all the reply's, I don't think I am going to mix them, I was just standing there holding both cans and wondering what if? But like many of you said why would you? I have the 3f because the shop that sold the gun said to use 3f my brother in law uses 3f, both say 100-120grns of 3f. CVA says no more than 80grns though so I thought I would try the 2f and see how it works since CVA says I can use up to 100grns of 2f. Since I am new to all this I still have tons of questions. I did not realize how different the 3f and 2f would be just having a few granules in my hand, did not realize there would be such a noticeable difference.

November 28, 2009, 10:53 AM	#13
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	grubbylabs, mykeal explained it better then I did. You have to have consistency when bp shooting. When you find the load your CVA likes, shoot that load. Same amount of powder,boolit ,ramrod pressure when seating boolit and swabbing between shots. Consistency is everything. Also, again remember when shooting loose T7 reduce your powder charge by 15% of what you would normally shoot of bp. example: if shooting 100grns. bp shoot 85grns T7.

November 28, 2009, 11:48 AM	#14
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	I have not even found a load I like I am having a hard time getting out to 100 yards with the 3f and I am at 100grns with it so I am thinking it would be a good thing to back of the 3f and go with a 2f powder.

November 28, 2009, 05:28 PM	#15
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Where are you grouping at 50 yds.? Best to start there and work out to 100yds. Also what load(powder amount and boolit) are you using?

November 28, 2009, 08:36 PM	#17
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	I have gone from 50 grns to 100 and it groups ok at 50 but even if I max out my sight adjustment it does not bring my point of impact up far enough to hit center. And no I am not playing home chemist, I am just curios about the stuff is all.

November 29, 2009, 07:40 AM	#18
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	What boolit/weight are you shooting? What caliber Cva? How many grns. of powder are you grouping best at 50yds? You`re zero`ed at 50 yds getting a good tight group/dead bullseye? Where do you hit at 75 or 100 yds? To eliminate the slight possibility of bad/weak fffg powder, try about 70 grns 777 at 50,75 and 100yds. Make sure you`ve got a big enough piece of cardboard behind your 75 and 100yd targets to show where your hitting. If your grouping good but low at 75-100yds and can`t adjust your rear sight low enough, it may be possible your rear sight or barrel mounting may be defective from the factory. It`s rare but happens, ask me how I know!

November 30, 2009, 01:07 AM	#21
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	I have been slowly filing down the front sight. It does group well at 50 or 100 it just runs out of adjustment to hit the center of the target at 100, 50 grns of 3f was doing great at 50yards but even up to 100 grns does not get me high enough to hit center at 100. I have been using a 220 grn round ball and 3f black powder. I just got some 2f triple 7 from hogdon I played with it a little on saturday but I only had about 25 yrds to shoot in. I did notice that it was a little slower to take off though.

November 30, 2009, 04:56 AM	#22
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Did you get my P.M.??? What model CVA are you shooting? Whats the ball size(i.e..490 or .495)? What patching material are you useing? What`s the twist on the barrel? Did you use a large cardboard target backer so you can see all shots at 100yds.? How many inchs apart were they? If your shooting patched roundball in a 1x28 twist barrel, put the file down, most likely your not shooting any kind of groups at 100yds. Get some sabots and try them. The Hornady SST`s 250grn. sabots are about $14. Your front sight will be more. Last edited by shortwave; November 30, 2009 at 05:07 AM.

November 30, 2009, 12:25 PM	#23
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	Shortwave, I am shooting a trade rifle and I am not sure of how many twists are in the barrel, but it is a .54 and I am shooting a .530 ball and a .015 patch.

November 30, 2009, 02:16 PM	#24
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	What kind of primer are you using? Not quite sure what you mean by 'trade rifle'. To find out your rate of twist put a cleaning jag with patch on your ramrod. Insert ramrod, mark a line on ramrod, slowly pull ramrod out paying attention to line and to how many revolutions ramrod makes. A 1x28 twist is 1 twist in 28 inchs,1x48 is 1 twist in 48 inchs etc.

November 30, 2009, 05:32 PM	#25
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	"trade rifle" is what it is called kinda like a Hawkins only it is a trade rifle, It has a 1x48 twist from what I could find from a quick internet search. From what I can find on the internet it was a popular rifle for tradesmen and Indians. Basically born out of the fur trade. I was using CCI's now I am using Vorderlader-Zundhutchen. I was told they are hotter.