Gas Checks on 30-30 Winchester?

[UtopiaTexasG19]

I have been casting, sizing, lubing and loading pistol rounds for years and have decided to jump into some rifle sizes, the first being the 30-30 Winchester load (.309) in 150 grain. I am not familiar with "gas checks" and have read both pro's and con's to using them at velocities over 1400 fps. Are they necessary for a properly cast, sized and lubed bullet? Thanks...

[Old Grump]

How much over, you still have a low pressure load so I wouldn't worry about it overly much. If you are pushing the 1700 -1900 fps mark I might consider it. I would shoot a few of them first and see if your bullets are going to be a problem. I gas check 357 mag, 44 mag and .308 but not 30-30 or 32 Win spcl.

[PawPaw]

You're going to find differing opinions on this, but my rule of thumb is that for velocities over 1500 fps, I like a gas check, but even for me that's not ironclad. Leading has to do more with speed and bullet fit than it does with a gas check and if you've been loading lead bullets in for your handguns, you probably have your own rules of thumb.

The one thing that limits my cast bullet speed in rifles is barrel twist. I can shoot a .30 cal 170 grain bullet from my Winchester 94 (1:12 twist) at 1850 fps, but when I shoot the same bullet through my Marlin barrel (1:10 twist) at the same speed, I started to get some weird teardrop-shaped tears in my target. Research showed that I had exceeded the rotational velocity of my alloy and the bullets were starting to come apart. Weird.

Shooting cast bullets in rifles is fun, educational and challenging. It bring another whole dimension to the hobby, and lends another set of challenges.

[UtopiaTexasG19]

Looking at the Hodgdon charts for 30-30 Winchester in 110Gr.-170Gr. the velocities range from 2000-2600fps so this would be above the 1400-1600 line for using the gas checks from reading I've already done. I am dissapointed in these charts as they contain very little data on cast bullets and the 3 instances on this chart are for lead cast at the 160Gr. weight. They show much slower velocities below 2000fps. Are lead cast bullets inherently slower than clad production bullets or does the shape make a larger difference in velocities? Is there on line loading charts just for home cast lead bullets? Thanks...

[dahermit]

I have been casting, sizing, lubing and loading pistol rounds for years and have decided to jump into some rifle sizes, the first being the 30-30 Winchester load (.309) in 150 grain. I am not familiar with "gas checks" and have read both pro's and con's to using them at velocities over 1400 fps. Are they necessary for a properly cast, sized and lubed bullet? Thanks...

Just to qualify my opinion/observations, I have been shooting cast lead rifle bullets since the late sixties and have been a member of the Cast Bullet Association for about as long (until recently).
It is notable that in the data provided to members of the CBA members on cast bullets used in matches of such, all rifle bullet competitors use gas checked bullets despite the fact that the target loads they use only produce about 1100 fps.
Furthermore, if you are considering using your 30-30 for deer or other hunting, logically you are going to be trying to achieve higher velocity than 1100 but still will be considering loads that will produce accuracy as well.
It is notable that historically, there were some target guns that specialized in plain-based bullets, but they were very specialized guns that used a charged cartridge case, but the bullet was loaded from the muzzle, which is not likely the gun that you wish to load for.
These people are the experts:
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/index.shtml
and here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

[salvadore]

I think you will be happier with a gascheck bullet. I shoot a 94 in 32 win. spec. and get pretty good accuracy with a lyman, a lee and a ranch dog mold all with gaschecks. My winchester's rifling starts right in front of the chamber, so all three of those designs run into the rifling. That hasn't caused me any problems except closing the action is a little harder.

[res45]

Gas check bullets basically have two purposes. One is to allow you to shoot a much softer alloy at a much higher combination of higher pressure and velocity than you normally could with that given alloy strength or BHN than if it were a plain base bullet. This is useful if you want to develops some HP or cast bullets used for hunting where you want some expansion.

The second and not necessarily in this order is to seal the bore,lead or cast lead bullet of the plain base variety at some point can be overwhelmed by both pressure and velocity,higher velocity increases the abrasive affects on the lead or cast bullets as it travels along the lands. Any of these velocity caused defect on the bullet are compromised by the high pressure load,this causes gas cutting,burning off of the bullet lube and in turn leading.

It entirely possible to create loads for various caliber that shoot low pressure high velocity cast loads or high pressure low velocity cast loads,it's when both high pressure and high velocity both are present in a given load that the gas check comes into play.

For cast bullet load data the Lyman Cast Bullet Manuals is a great reference for load data with a giver caliber and weight of bullet to load anything for plinker and small game load to higher velocity hunting loads. Veral Smith of LBT moulds has an excellent book on Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets it's well worth the average cost of a reloading manual if your going to shoot cast bullets.

I shoot both the Lee 150 and 170 gr. RNFP in my Sav. 30-30 pump gun,based on my needs I shoot two loads with two different alloys. For plinking and small game loads I cast my bullets from straight air cooled WW alloy BHN 12,no sizing,coat the bullet with two light coats of Alox/JPW lube leave the gas check off and push it to just a little over 1200 fps. with 7.0 grs. of Alliant Red Dot the same load will run the 150 gr. about 100 fps. faster.

For hunting loads I use the 170 gr. RNFP cast form 30 to 1 Lead/Tin alloy BHN 9. For these bullet in my rifle I apply a gas check with a Lee .311 sizer on the first pass with a little Imperial Sizing Wax on my fingers,the bullets are then ranch dipped in my Alox/JPW lube to fill the lube grooves and placed on wax paper to dry overnight,the next day I push the bullet back through the Lee sizer gas check first,it compresses the lube into the grooves and leaves the nose and front driving band nice and clean.

I shoot these bullets right at 2000 fps. using 28.0 grs. of H335 not a MAX load,accuracy is as good or better than any factory load and both the plinking and hunting loads leave my bore nice and shiny. Another bonus is that they cost me 8 to 14 cents each to produce depending on which powder I use.

[Paul B.]

As I am a firm believer in the KISS primciple, my rule of thumb is of the bullet was designed for a gas check, then I use a gas check.
For the 30-30, I size my bullets to .310" You might even want to go as large as .3105 to .311" if you're shooting a Marlin with Micro-Groove barrel although the .310" has worked just fine in two that I shot cast in. I size all my .30 caliber bullets to .310" and so far it's worked out just fine.
The bullets I prefer for hunting deer at the Lyman #311291 (175 gr.) and the RCBS #30-180-FN (190 gr) I use plain old cleaned wheel weight metal at BHN 12 and they've always done the job. I use jacketed bullet data and start with the starting load and work up. For that heavier bullet, you'll have to chase down data for the .303 Savage. That bullet will do 1950 FPS from the 20" 30-30 and duplicates the old .303 Savage round. Winchester used to load a 190 gr. Silvertip for the Savage but never used it in the 30-30. Too bad. Gun writer Sam Fadala has a book entirely devoted to the 30-30 and he laments Winchester not loading it in the 30-30 and gripes that Winchester has never made that bullet available to handloaders. I've taken 15 deer with the Lyman bullet and only two so far with the RCBS bullet but I'm here to say, that bullet flat out knocks deer on their butt like right now. Where I live now, there isnt much opportunity to use a 30-30 on deer. I've found a spot where there are some feral hogs but just haven't had the chance to get out and do a hunt. I was thinking about using a .358 Win. but maybe just might tale the 30-30 with the 190 gr. bullet and see how well it does on porkers.
Paul B.

[TXGunNut]

Are they necessary for a properly cast, sized and lubed bullet? -UTG19

Welcome to the asylum and thanks for asking. I'll be trying to answer that question for myself soon. From what I've read the answer is "no" but I think it may be easier to get optimal results using a GC. Good info above, food for thought.

[UtopiaTexasG19]

Thanks to everyone for the information. Next week or so when time allows I plan to borrow a neighbors "Ranch Dog" 30-30 mold and cast some boolits in the 175 grain, lubing and sizing to .310, using gas checks with the recommendations for powder loads on the "Ranch Dog" site. Using some Hodgdon H4895 I have on hand at a maximum of 32.3 grains I should expect roughly 2184fps. I will start out lower on the powder and then work up. Anyone have a reasonable idea of how many grains of powder I should lower the initial loads for a starting point? This may be a good excuse to buy a small set up to record velocities! This sure is a lot more interesting than the pistol boolit molding and loads I've worked with in the past. Just recently I found the Marlin 336 in 30-30 way in the back of a storage closet that I bought in 1974 and memories of shooting it back then have prompted me to use some reloading equipment I've had for years.

[TXGunNut]

General rule is drop back 10% but that looks like a pretty stout load. 27-28grs sounds like a better starting place.