Miss HSc 703857 - i am stunned...3 cuts on grip plate???

[Gebirg]

Look at this beauty, got it today - i dont now what to say...
The finish, the holster - almost brand new...
I think pistol, holster and mags has always been together since 1941...


NOTICE: the three cuts om the left grip plate high..., what could that mean???


This is one of the most...


Thank you

[Gebirg]

nice in B and W

[shouldazagged]

Agreed, nicer in black and white. Nice-looking little gun. As to the notches...

[Gebirg]

Could be rate of kills????

[Jim Watson]

Number of Russians shot?
(I never heard of a German vet who did not spend the entire war on the Eastern Front, nobody ever fought the Americans, British, or French. I don't know who it was shooting at our guys, but it seems not to have been Germans.)

[histed]

I was thinking the same thing. I know that American Westerns were big in Europe before the war, though I'm not 100% sure what Adolf allowed his loyal followers to watch. We all have seen Hollywood gunfighter notching grips, so maybe life was imitating art. What ever - the piece is very nice and as a historian I am very jealous.

[Winchester_73]

Maybe its a reminder that third time is a charm? As in the Germans starting WWIII but winning it? Well, that's my theory!

Thats actually a very nice example. Which variation is it? Which acceptance does it have E/655 or E/135 or is it police? War time commercial?

[ronz]

I got a cz24 with some notches on the grip

turned out they were made by having the trigger spur from another gun rubbing on it

was a lot more interesting not knowing why the marks were there

at least on yours they don't look like they are from a spur

not knowing is sometimes better

[James K]

Given the appearance of that gun, I doubt very much it was ever carried or used in combat. No way of knowing for sure the meaning of the marks.

Jim

[Gebirg]

Thank you for interesting meanings...
This is not a combat gun, and it is comercial - but it has been carried by a German offiser during ww2...The German officers, many of them had to by its own sidearm...
But i agree, it can altso be combat or gunfights (or hits) as we say...

AKB
norway

[Que]

I'm thinking just as likely fräuleins.

[Gebirg]

Thats a good one

[44 AMP]

interesting, and in beautiful condition. Your gun does not show the WaA Pruf stamp where mine does (left side, base of triggerguard), but does seem to have the eagle/n proof on the rt side, which my gun also has.

Does yours have the WaA Pruf stamp on it, somewhere?

[Winchester_73]

He called it a commercial gun, which means it only has the Eagle/N (E/N) markings (nitroproof). E/135 and E/655 are army acceptance markings, and markings like E/F, E/C, E/L and E/K are police markings.

[Gebirg]

That is correct Win_73, and mu must bring along with us the HSc with Kriegsmarinemarkings...the eagle MIII/8...

[Winchester_73]

Wow that's a rare bird there. I don't always mention Kriegsmarine pistols when discussing variations, because even though they exist, they are RARE and many are faked. I never encountered one for sale that I could buy, and I have never saw one in person. That's a real prize, thanks for sharing.

[Gebirg]

So, there is few of these pistols with marinemarking in the usa?

[44 AMP]

Here in the US, virtually every time one sees or hears of a WWII era German pistol, the phrase "carried by" or "taken from" a German Officer is included in the description. And its often true, but its not always true. Even when the term is stretched to its limits, to include all the various "officers" in all those different Third Reich "offices" (Amts).

In the combat arms, virtually all officers had a pistol as part of their uniform. A great many enlisted ranks did as well. Mostly there were the classic combat pistols, primarily the P.08 and P.38, but many other pistols were also used. And in support organizations, the pistols carried could be almost anything.

Most German uniforms included a pistol of some kind, and dress uniform often included a dress dagger, or sword. Everything from pocket autos on up were worn by different indiviuals as part of the uniform, and while some groups were ridgidly standardized, many were not, even when they were officially supposed to be.

Considering that there were a really large number of people who's uniform called for them to wear a handgun (whether their official duties ever needed it, or not, it was part of the "proper" uniform), Germany was always short of pistols, sometimes critically so. It wasn't just soldiers, the mayor, the postman, the railroad, all kinds of bureaucrats and workers, probably even the dog catcher, all were supposed to have a pistol on their belt, in dress uniform, if not regular wear. To me, a full flap military style holster for a .25 auto seems a bit much, but rules are rules, right?

Officers, and especially higher ranking ones, in many nations have often had the ability (and sometimes the requirement) to buy their own pistols, and choices that weren't the standard issue guns were quite tolerated, generally. Goering himself had a Colt .38 revolver on him when captured.

[James K]

Just to be picky, Goring's revolver was an S&W M&P in .38 Special. Göring, unlike his even more evil boss, was a gun collector, so his having a American revolver is not as odd as it seems. The gun is in the West Point Museum; it is a plain blued M&P, with no special markings. I have been unable to determine the serial number in a cursory search.

(Hitler cared little about guns and at the end had only the Walther PP he used to commit suicide and, perhaps a .25 pistol, though that is not certain.)

Jim

[Winchester_73]

It is mentioned in the SCSW 3rd ed that that SN "642357" attributed to Herman Göring. It is in the West Point museum, as JK mentioned. In the pics I have saw of the revolver, the grip style is definitely a 1905 4th change type since the small silver medallions did not appear on K frame grips until the 1930s, and the 1905 4th change production began around 1916. In other words, the SN judging by the photos of the gun is probably correct. It would then officially be a 1905 4th change M&P 38 special, blue with 4in barrel, SN 642357. I read somewhere he bought it in Hamburg, Germany in 1934.

Here is a photo of his M&P he surrendered:



Below is a pic of it with the holster, his field baton (the baton was a gift for Göring from Hitler, ivory with gold and platinum inlaid eagles) then a dagger which was presented to Göring (I don't know its exact background), the book was his silver bound guest sign-in book for Carinhall (a mansion he had on his private hunting grounds) and the gold engraved pistol is a Lilliput 32, which was supposedly presented to Hitler by the Nazi Max Kehl, before WWII. Interesting that the display is all Göring except that Liliput. Perhaps it is simply a famous relics/captures of WWII display.



Here are some pics of Carinhall. The guest book was fitting for such a dwelling.

[Gebirg]

James K - it was a PPK Hitler used, not a PP?

[jimbob86]

I never heard of a German vet who did not spend the entire war on the Eastern Front, nobody ever fought the Americans, British, or French. I don't know who it was shooting at our guys, but it seems not to have been Germans.)

I met one very elderly German gentleman at one of the beer tents at the Oktoberfest in Munchen (how does one make the umlaut dealy on a standard keybaord?) in the early 90's ...... claimed to have fought Americans in Tunisia and spent the majority of the war picking cotton in Texas ....... his two comrades, one fought the Russians as a teenager in the final year of the war and the other was too young to leave the farm ..... the things I remember the old guy saying is that "war is terrible, but one must do his duty", and that the Americans had more equipment than everybody else combined, and seemed to be everywhere at once.

[James K]

Hi, Gebirg,

Not if the stories and pictures I have seen are correct. It was a gold plated (not "solid gold" - a solid gold pistol would not work) PP presented to him on his 50th birthday by Carl Walther. Aside from the normal respect for the nation's leader (who had gotten them billions of RMs in contracts), the Walthers were ardent Nazis, something they, and millions of other Germans, preferred to forget after 1945. The pistol is heavily engraved with ivory grips and is truly a work of art, as one would expect.

Several claims have been made to be "the" pistol; one man tried to pass off an ordinary Luger, asking a million dollars; another asked a similar sum for a cheap Röhm pistol. Other guns have been put forth as the Hitler suicide pistol, but that PP seems to be the most likely one.

Note that one pistol shown is described as a PPK; it is clearly a PP.

Hi, Winchester 73,

If my source is correct, that S&W would have been made in 1933; the grips are consistent with that date, plus if "Der Dicke" bought it new in 1934, 1933 would probably be right. (Edited to correct an error.)

Jim

[4V50 Gary]

I wouldn't make too much of those marks.

[Winchester_73]

So, there is few of these pistols with marinemarking in the usa?

Yes, sorry I forgot to answer. They are not around. I never saw one at a gunshow, nor one for sale even online that was authentic. I have saw Kriegsmarine stuff on the luger forum, and perhaps other places. Even then, I was not 100% sure if was seeing the genuine article. A local collector who has a collection which dwarfs mine says he has a few, but I think he said only around 5, and he has been collecting for 30 years or more.

I am fortunate enough to have a WWI P.04 luger in my collection, aka 1917 Navy Luger by DWM. I will post a few pics later.