sierra 69 gr matchking hpbt ?

rebs · June 2, 2016, 07:19 AM

I loaded some of these for my AR with 1 in 8 twist 16" barrel and they grouped just over 1 inch at 100 yds. My load was 25.0 of CFE223 oal of 2.255
Is this as good as can be expected or maybe a different powder ?
Would this same bullet shoot well in a 1 in 9 barrel ?

TMD · June 2, 2016, 07:37 AM

The Sierra 69gn HPBT is my favorite bullet for my Stag model 6 which also has a 1/8 twist 5.56 chamber. My best load with CFE223 is 25.8gn and a col of 2.260. Usually groups at about 3/4". My most accurate load with this bullet is with 24.2gn of RamShot Tac. Groups consistently at .3-.4" if I do my part. 25.3gn of Varget works great too. Groups as well as CFE if not slightly better.

**Unclenick** · June 2, 2016, 07:48 AM

Depends on your AR. I've seen match grade ones put those bullets into about half an inch at 100 yards by good shots. My own will do that when I do my part. 9" twist is what that bullet was designed for, IIRC. The 8" will do better with the 77 grain and 80 grain bullets, but should still shoot the 69's well.

To tell if a bullet is appropriate for a barrel, look up the length of the bullet here. When you have that, go to this calculator and put in the length, weight, length of a plastic tip if there is one and you have it, then put in your muzzle velocity, barrel twist and the temperature and barometric pressure where you are shooting. Click on calculate. If the number you get is over 1.3 and up to 3.0, the bullet should shoot reasonably well (what Sierra calls "hunting accuracy"). If it is 1.4 to 2.5, it should shoot as well as I described in a good gun. If it is 1.4 to 1.7, it should be possible to get benchrest bugholes from it with a benchrest gun.

If you don't get the kind of performance described and you are a good shot, then either the gun or the load or both need work. For the load you can try different powders and different case brands and different bullet seating depths. If you want top accuracy, you want to have equipment to load for minimum runout of case and bullet in the loaded round and to be sure you know how to seat primers optimally. For the gun, if it isn't a match rifle, you can read a book on match accurizing the rifle as a starting point.

With accuracy work, there are always thousands of people working to try to improve it, so there are a great many methods and tricks they've worked out and exploring and trying them is all part of the fun.

To find your best powder charge, take a look at Dan Newberry's OCW method.

m&p45acp10+1 · June 2, 2016, 09:43 AM

Both my bolt action, and my AR do better with the 68 grain Hornady Match bullets, and Reloader 15. The bullets are closer in length to Sierra 75 or 77 bullets, and are considerably cheaper as well.

My bolt action will group under a quarter inch at 100 yards from a Lead Sled. My Ar will eat away the red circle in the target at 50 yards with iron sights.

Fotheringill · June 2, 2016, 11:03 AM

You need to experiment with powder, neck tension and seating depth for your rifle.

I shoot the round in a Savage 12 F/TR with a 1:7 twist. For me (and each model and rifle in the same model are different), I found 25.0 gr of Varget giving me an average group of .336 @ 100 yards measured center to center. I have a VERY tight chamber. It is going to take time and money to see what is best in your particular rifle.

T. O'Heir · June 2, 2016, 12:08 PM

Your rifle doesn't like that load. You work up to 25 or just pick it?
You must work up the load for your rifle. And even then your rifle may not like the powder/bullet combination.

rebs · June 2, 2016, 12:19 PM

I forgot to say the results I get with the Hornady 68 gr hpbt is almost exactly the same size groups.

iagbarrb · June 2, 2016, 09:57 PM

Hornady 68 gn bthp match are giving me 2 inch groups at 300 yd. I do not have access to good powder here, so I opened belgian 7.62 NATO ammunition that I was able to get and searched for a good load. 22gn such powder. Primers are Brazilian CBC small rifle and brass is remington. 2757 fps average. Min speed 2704 max 2836
My AR is self build, kind of many brands Frankenstein, according on what I was able to get in my country on in a travel to the US.
Barrell is a Bushmaster 20 inch 1/8 twist predator, upper is wilson defense, bolt and bolt carrier JP.
With factory green tip ammo M855 groups are allmost 4 inch.
55 gn bullets..... kind of M193 very unsatisfied at 300 yd.
I am very very happy with my reloaded groups, and not so unhappy with 855.
I purchased sierra mach 77 gn in my last us visit, but not used those yet.
Thats what I can tell.

rebs · June 3, 2016, 06:23 AM

I checked the loading manuals and worked up to 25 gr which gave me the best group but not really a good group. 25.8 is max. I have seen no pressure signs so I may go higher on the amount of powder in 2/10th increments

**Unclenick** · June 3, 2016, 11:17 AM

Does the handguard float? If not, the barrel deflection timing may be made inconsistent by slight pressure variations on it by the handguard, especially if the handguard is resting on the bags or is pulled on by a sling. In that case, even a perfectly tuned load will still be varied by the contact and pressure inconsistency.

Road_Clam · June 3, 2016, 07:01 PM

The 69gr SMK/ Nosler CC is an awesome choice for AR target precision. It's my go to bullet for shooting 600 yds with my 24" Bushmaster Varmint. Pick any of the popular powders (favor the powders that are at the slower end of the .223 burn rate spectrum). I like RL15, 2000MR , W748, and Varget . There are many excellent powders for heavier .22 cal AR precision

flashhole · June 4, 2016, 06:56 AM

I shoot that SMK bullet in my 223 Kimber bolt gun and get the little bitty groups. I tried a few different powders and found it very much favors Accurate 2460 powder with that bullet. Other manufacturers bullets of similar design shoot well to but in my case it was the powder that made the difference. I use either CCI 400 or Federal 209 primers.

FWIW - that bullet is a great target bullet but not so great on critters. It holds together really well on impact and only pokes holes through them. It kills them, just no "red mist" action.

rodfac · June 5, 2016, 07:56 AM

In my HBAR, Colt AR with 7" twist, Sierra 69's group very well out to 300 yards for use in over the course, CMP Nat'l Match competition. Two inche gps at 200 yds. are routine with a scope mounted for load work up. That wt. Sierra bullet does not do well beyond 400+- yds. however. I shoot Sierra 77's or 80's for 600 yd work. Best Regards, Rod

Wrangler5 · June 6, 2016, 01:19 PM

My bolt action Marlin (1/9 barrel) does about equally well with the 69SMK and 70g Berger VLD out to 300 yards. (The next step at my range is 600 yards, and I'm not good enough at wind doping to judge group size as a function of bullet choice at that distance.) I was surprised to find a significant improvement in group size from MORE bullet setback off the lands.

There's an article on the Berger Bullets site about how to determine the best setback with the fewest shots - you do NOT do it in 0.001 steps, unless you want to risk just burning up the barrel before you find its sweet spot. I found that my barrel likes the 69 and 70 grain bullets ~0.080 off the lands - yes, that's eighty thousandths. I get groups running 2.0 to 2.5 inches at 300 yards from a solid bench, which I think is terrific for a <$250 gun with its factory trigger and plastic stock.

That's just one variable, of course. Others have already been mentioned. And some things that you will see mentioned (things almost all benchrest shooters do, like turning necks to insure consistent neck tension) can be more theoretical than real for AR platforms.

The other thing to keep in mind is YOUR abilities with your particular gun in your intended configuration at the range(s) you want to shoot. Shooting prone is a lot different from shooting off a concrete bench, as is shooting off a bipod as compared to a more substantial rest or an improvised rest like a backpack or duffel, or with just a sling.

I saw an article a few years ago (can't find it now) that ranked all the techniques people use to improve rifle accuracy by the "payback" they produce in smaller group sizes. I think #1 was insuring that the rifle was solid in the stock, all action, scope base and ring screws properly tightened, etc. but #2 was shooting more shots in the way and at the range you intend to shoot. It was far ahead of whatever #3 was, and I believe (the author said) gave better payback than the next 4 or 5 items combined. So while sorting cases by weight, annealing necks, and checking bullet/case concentricity can all have some impact on groups, making sure that YOU can consistently hold and fire the accuracy you want at the range you want is the place to start. (I find it harder to consistently shoot a 3" group at 300 yards than a 1" group at 100, with the same rifle, ammo and bench on the same day. So if you plan to shoot at something other than 100 yards, practice as much as you can at the distance you're going to shoot.)

BWM · June 6, 2016, 04:59 PM

I have had good luck with A2200 with 64gr mil bullets.

flashhole · June 6, 2016, 06:08 PM

Wrangler5 - I looked fort the article you mentioned and could not find it but read several other articles. Would you be so kind as to post the link. Thanks.

Wrangler5 · June 6, 2016, 10:38 PM

Sorry, I can't find it. I looked in my documents (thinking I might have pdf'd it and saved it) and in my Safari bookmarks, but to no avail. It was probably 2 or more years ago, when I was trying to make a cheap 223 F-class rifle, and was working all the angles for accuracy before I finally realized why all the good F-class shooters at my club were shooting 6mms and 308s - there's no substitute for bullet mass when you're dealing with wind at 600 yards. It's not unusual for the wind flags at my club to indicate three different wind directions and velocities on the 600 yard range. My 9" twist barrel just wasn't going to shoot anything heavier than 70 grains reliably, so I sort of gave up on the F-class idea.

But before reaching that conclusion, I looked at LOTS of articles covering LOTS of accuracy details (I have a nifty and cheap way to anneal necks, for example), including a fabulous, illustrated and oh-so-serious April 1 spoof on "powder uniforming" - using microdrills to drill holes down the center of powder granules to be sure each one weighed exactly the same. It was in the course of doing all that research that I came across the cautionary tale I mentioned - basically that the most productive way to improve your shooting is to shoot more. I've done a number of internet searches in the last couple of days looking for that article again, but I can't remember how I came across it, and haven't found it again.

June 2, 2016, 09:43 AM	#4
m&p45acp10+1 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 3,930	Both my bolt action, and my AR do better with the 68 grain Hornady Match bullets, and Reloader 15. The bullets are closer in length to Sierra 75 or 77 bullets, and are considerably cheaper as well. My bolt action will group under a quarter inch at 100 yards from a Lead Sled. My Ar will eat away the red circle in the target at 50 yards with iron sights. __________________ No matter how many times you do it and nothing happens it only takes something going wrong one time to kill you.

June 2, 2016, 12:08 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Your rifle doesn't like that load. You work up to 25 or just pick it? You must work up the load for your rifle. And even then your rifle may not like the powder/bullet combination. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

June 2, 2016, 09:57 PM	#8
iagbarrb Member Join Date: May 31, 2015 Location: Bolivia Posts: 38	Hornady 68 gn bthp match are giving me 2 inch groups at 300 yd. I do not have access to good powder here, so I opened belgian 7.62 NATO ammunition that I was able to get and searched for a good load. 22gn such powder. Primers are Brazilian CBC small rifle and brass is remington. 2757 fps average. Min speed 2704 max 2836 My AR is self build, kind of many brands Frankenstein, according on what I was able to get in my country on in a travel to the US. Barrell is a Bushmaster 20 inch 1/8 twist predator, upper is wilson defense, bolt and bolt carrier JP. With factory green tip ammo M855 groups are allmost 4 inch. 55 gn bullets..... kind of M193 very unsatisfied at 300 yd. I am very very happy with my reloaded groups, and not so unhappy with 855. I purchased sierra mach 77 gn in my last us visit, but not used those yet. Thats what I can tell. Last edited by iagbarrb; June 2, 2016 at 10:00 PM. Reason: Completing the post.

June 3, 2016, 11:17 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Does the handguard float? If not, the barrel deflection timing may be made inconsistent by slight pressure variations on it by the handguard, especially if the handguard is resting on the bags or is pulled on by a sling. In that case, even a perfectly tuned load will still be varied by the contact and pressure inconsistency. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 3, 2016, 07:01 PM	#11
Road_Clam Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2013 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 1,695	The 69gr SMK/ Nosler CC is an awesome choice for AR target precision. It's my go to bullet for shooting 600 yds with my 24" Bushmaster Varmint. Pick any of the popular powders (favor the powders that are at the slower end of the .223 burn rate spectrum). I like RL15, 2000MR , W748, and Varget . There are many excellent powders for heavier .22 cal AR precision __________________ "To be old an wise you must have been young and stupid"

June 2, 2016, 07:19 AM	#1
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	sierra 69 gr matchking hpbt ? I loaded some of these for my AR with 1 in 8 twist 16" barrel and they grouped just over 1 inch at 100 yds. My load was 25.0 of CFE223 oal of 2.255 Is this as good as can be expected or maybe a different powder ? Would this same bullet shoot well in a 1 in 9 barrel ?

June 2, 2016, 07:37 AM	#2
TMD Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,293	The Sierra 69gn HPBT is my favorite bullet for my Stag model 6 which also has a 1/8 twist 5.56 chamber. My best load with CFE223 is 25.8gn and a col of 2.260. Usually groups at about 3/4". My most accurate load with this bullet is with 24.2gn of RamShot Tac. Groups consistently at .3-.4" if I do my part. 25.3gn of Varget works great too. Groups as well as CFE if not slightly better.

June 2, 2016, 07:48 AM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Depends on your AR. I've seen match grade ones put those bullets into about half an inch at 100 yards by good shots. My own will do that when I do my part. 9" twist is what that bullet was designed for, IIRC. The 8" will do better with the 77 grain and 80 grain bullets, but should still shoot the 69's well. To tell if a bullet is appropriate for a barrel, look up the length of the bullet here. When you have that, go to this calculator and put in the length, weight, length of a plastic tip if there is one and you have it, then put in your muzzle velocity, barrel twist and the temperature and barometric pressure where you are shooting. Click on calculate. If the number you get is over 1.3 and up to 3.0, the bullet should shoot reasonably well (what Sierra calls "hunting accuracy"). If it is 1.4 to 2.5, it should shoot as well as I described in a good gun. If it is 1.4 to 1.7, it should be possible to get benchrest bugholes from it with a benchrest gun. If you don't get the kind of performance described and you are a good shot, then either the gun or the load or both need work. For the load you can try different powders and different case brands and different bullet seating depths. If you want top accuracy, you want to have equipment to load for minimum runout of case and bullet in the loaded round and to be sure you know how to seat primers optimally. For the gun, if it isn't a match rifle, you can read a book on match accurizing the rifle as a starting point. With accuracy work, there are always thousands of people working to try to improve it, so there are a great many methods and tricks they've worked out and exploring and trying them is all part of the fun. To find your best powder charge, take a look at Dan Newberry's OCW method. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 2, 2016, 11:03 AM	#5
Fotheringill Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2014 Posts: 114	You need to experiment with powder, neck tension and seating depth for your rifle. I shoot the round in a Savage 12 F/TR with a 1:7 twist. For me (and each model and rifle in the same model are different), I found 25.0 gr of Varget giving me an average group of .336 @ 100 yards measured center to center. I have a VERY tight chamber. It is going to take time and money to see what is best in your particular rifle.

June 2, 2016, 12:19 PM	#7
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I forgot to say the results I get with the Hornady 68 gr hpbt is almost exactly the same size groups.

June 3, 2016, 06:23 AM	#9
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	I checked the loading manuals and worked up to 25 gr which gave me the best group but not really a good group. 25.8 is max. I have seen no pressure signs so I may go higher on the amount of powder in 2/10th increments

June 4, 2016, 06:56 AM	#12
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	I shoot that SMK bullet in my 223 Kimber bolt gun and get the little bitty groups. I tried a few different powders and found it very much favors Accurate 2460 powder with that bullet. Other manufacturers bullets of similar design shoot well to but in my case it was the powder that made the difference. I use either CCI 400 or Federal 209 primers. FWIW - that bullet is a great target bullet but not so great on critters. It holds together really well on impact and only pokes holes through them. It kills them, just no "red mist" action. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 5, 2016, 07:56 AM	#13
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	In my HBAR, Colt AR with 7" twist, Sierra 69's group very well out to 300 yards for use in over the course, CMP Nat'l Match competition. Two inche gps at 200 yds. are routine with a scope mounted for load work up. That wt. Sierra bullet does not do well beyond 400+- yds. however. I shoot Sierra 77's or 80's for 600 yd work. Best Regards, Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73. Last edited by rodfac; June 5, 2016 at 06:52 PM.

June 6, 2016, 01:19 PM	#14
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 326	My bolt action Marlin (1/9 barrel) does about equally well with the 69SMK and 70g Berger VLD out to 300 yards. (The next step at my range is 600 yards, and I'm not good enough at wind doping to judge group size as a function of bullet choice at that distance.) I was surprised to find a significant improvement in group size from MORE bullet setback off the lands. There's an article on the Berger Bullets site about how to determine the best setback with the fewest shots - you do NOT do it in 0.001 steps, unless you want to risk just burning up the barrel before you find its sweet spot. I found that my barrel likes the 69 and 70 grain bullets ~0.080 off the lands - yes, that's eighty thousandths. I get groups running 2.0 to 2.5 inches at 300 yards from a solid bench, which I think is terrific for a <$250 gun with its factory trigger and plastic stock. That's just one variable, of course. Others have already been mentioned. And some things that you will see mentioned (things almost all benchrest shooters do, like turning necks to insure consistent neck tension) can be more theoretical than real for AR platforms. The other thing to keep in mind is YOUR abilities with your particular gun in your intended configuration at the range(s) you want to shoot. Shooting prone is a lot different from shooting off a concrete bench, as is shooting off a bipod as compared to a more substantial rest or an improvised rest like a backpack or duffel, or with just a sling. I saw an article a few years ago (can't find it now) that ranked all the techniques people use to improve rifle accuracy by the "payback" they produce in smaller group sizes. I think #1 was insuring that the rifle was solid in the stock, all action, scope base and ring screws properly tightened, etc. but #2 was shooting more shots in the way and at the range you intend to shoot. It was far ahead of whatever #3 was, and I believe (the author said) gave better payback than the next 4 or 5 items combined. So while sorting cases by weight, annealing necks, and checking bullet/case concentricity can all have some impact on groups, making sure that YOU can consistently hold and fire the accuracy you want at the range you want is the place to start. (I find it harder to consistently shoot a 3" group at 300 yards than a 1" group at 100, with the same rifle, ammo and bench on the same day. So if you plan to shoot at something other than 100 yards, practice as much as you can at the distance you're going to shoot.)

June 6, 2016, 04:59 PM	#15
BWM Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2013 Location: SW IN Posts: 438	I have had good luck with A2200 with 64gr mil bullets. __________________ Man that likes guns. Navy. USS Ponchatoula AO 148 USS Vesuvius AE 15

June 6, 2016, 06:08 PM	#16
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Wrangler5 - I looked fort the article you mentioned and could not find it but read several other articles. Would you be so kind as to post the link. Thanks. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 6, 2016, 10:38 PM	#17
Wrangler5 Senior Member Join Date: September 18, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 326	Sorry, I can't find it. I looked in my documents (thinking I might have pdf'd it and saved it) and in my Safari bookmarks, but to no avail. It was probably 2 or more years ago, when I was trying to make a cheap 223 F-class rifle, and was working all the angles for accuracy before I finally realized why all the good F-class shooters at my club were shooting 6mms and 308s - there's no substitute for bullet mass when you're dealing with wind at 600 yards. It's not unusual for the wind flags at my club to indicate three different wind directions and velocities on the 600 yard range. My 9" twist barrel just wasn't going to shoot anything heavier than 70 grains reliably, so I sort of gave up on the F-class idea. But before reaching that conclusion, I looked at LOTS of articles covering LOTS of accuracy details (I have a nifty and cheap way to anneal necks, for example), including a fabulous, illustrated and oh-so-serious April 1 spoof on "powder uniforming" - using microdrills to drill holes down the center of powder granules to be sure each one weighed exactly the same. It was in the course of doing all that research that I came across the cautionary tale I mentioned - basically that the most productive way to improve your shooting is to shoot more. I've done a number of internet searches in the last couple of days looking for that article again, but I can't remember how I came across it, and haven't found it again.