The Combat Mindset: Lessons learned From a Recent Sort of Real Home Defense Situation - Page 2

doofus47 · August 16, 2011, 09:48 AM

Our daughter used to get up and wander. We put a bell on her door.

Kind of medieval, but effective.

Skans · August 16, 2011, 10:05 AM

Quote:

and my son's room is on the other end of the house.

That's a difficult situation. My daughter's room is right next to ours (and it's going to stay that way until she's 25

) - very easy to check. But, wouldn't your first thought tend to be that your son was making the noise? I would be a lot more reserved clearing my house if I had a split-plan like that with someone living on the other end of the house.

Mobuck · August 16, 2011, 10:14 AM

This is one reason I never could understand the house feature of having the "master suite" on the opposite end of the house from the kids' rooms. Sure you want privacy at times but I'd rather be close to my kids in case they get sick or an instance like this. In my house, 3 steps from the bed put all my dependants behind me leaving anyone else within a clear firing area. My bedroom also dominated the normal approach to the primary door by overlooking the deck and driveway both of which were lighted by a dusk to dawn light.
Change the angles of the doors so the blind spots are eliminated and put a bell on the door and/or boy.

Skans · August 16, 2011, 10:41 AM

I think the split-plan house, or houses with master suites on the 1st floor and kids rooms on the 2nd floor are the worst things ever designed. If you want to know what your kids are up to and make an effort to be a part of their lives, part of that is not being detached from, but living together with your children.

On another note, if someone were to break into my house, they would be sliding, and opening multiple doors before they could get to the bedrooms where we sleep, unless they break through the outside doors going directly to our beedroom. I, or the dog, would here them long before they could ever reach the back bedrooms. It's easy to isolate where the night "noise" is coming from, and thus pretty easy to clear.

catnphx · August 16, 2011, 11:49 AM

Lots of good suggestions listed already.

Your wife needs to be part of the solution ... you need to wake her up and work together as a team; you need a plan that you've already discussed. In my opinion (and I'm trying not to "Tuesday morning quarterback"), the first focus would be to quickly get to the kids room and secure him. I wouldn't even clear the house in the normal fashion ... just safely and quickly get to your kid's room. Was a cell phone in your pocket? Once you've got the kid, call the cops and wait.

Anyway, these are scary situations and I'm glad it turned out ok. Use it as a learning opportunity and move forward. Thanks for sharing.

Brasscatcher84 · August 16, 2011, 12:31 PM

A lot of people come on very sternly with "well FIRST check on the kid" so I feel I must reiterate that THE ENTIRE HOUSE is between my room and his room. My home is a single level open floor plan with the bedrooms and bathrooms off of the main section. Getting to him prior to clearing the house is not an option unless I want to blindly trip over the BG.

secret_agent_man · August 16, 2011, 12:38 PM

A lot of your problem would have been solved by the maxim to positively identify the suspect before opening fire. If you feel that places you in potential danger, well, that's simply the way it has to work to avoid unwanted shootings. Luckily, you played it right.

BillCA · August 16, 2011, 12:54 PM

+1 on waking up the wife. If nothing else, she can call 911 if there really is someone in the house. Even if he defeats you, she's awake and alert (hopefully).

No kids here, but I used to have multiple cats. Strategically placed night lights will help illuminate the darker parts of the house. Stick one in a bathroom and it'll help light a hallway. One in a dark living room will give you plenty of light to see shadows or silhouettes. On sliding glass doors, put a thin strip of reflective tape on the glass (to show it's closed). A quick flick of the light will tell you if the door is closed, even if the screen is closed. My lesson was learned after thoroughly cleaning the glass door one day and that night hearing an odd noise and not being able to see if the door was open or not from the hallway.

Look for remote lighting switches. There are various sorts. A friend has a 2-story place and part of the upper hallway can look down to the living room. A button is pressed and two lights come on downstairs, giving him a commanding view.

From what I can tell, you did most things right. Not waking the wife and finding the door open should have told you to retreat and wake her for help.

Do practice what you both will do in such an event. Can you even traverse the house to protect your son? If not, can you reach around a corner and flip on a light that doesn't give you away completely? What have you told your son to do if he hears gunfire at O-dark-thirty in the morning?

markj · August 16, 2011, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Luckily, she called my wife instead of the police, and gave us a chance to explain what had happened!

Man that would have sucked worse than you may imagine, could maybe a domestic violence charge and we all know what that means.

Be safe, be careful, hug that boy a lot

Jo6pak · August 17, 2011, 08:29 PM

Heck of a hariy tale, Brasscatcher
Glad to hear everything turned out alright. I'm sure you'll laugh at that story in the future.

Take the comments of the "monday morning quarterbacks" with a grain of salt. We all know better after the sun comes up. You learned form the situation, and by sharing the story you have helped all of us learn form it too.

Thanks for the post.

amprecon · August 17, 2011, 10:52 PM

Well, I guess I can suggest cats for one home defense solution, ever wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or get a drink and the cat walks between your feet nearly sending you head over heels?
If they'd do the same thing to an intruder in your house sneaking around trying to be quiet, I think it'd work pretty good.

shortwave · August 18, 2011, 12:14 AM

Training most any dog, even a lab to be on alert at night is not a hard thing to do. May take some time but well worth it.

A friend of mine(old neighbor) has three black labs and I guarantee you won't get in that house at night without them waking someone up. They are NOT trained killers by a long shot and may not even bite someone if they got into the house, but he's taught them to bark if they hear something during the night. I know, I was his training guinea pig making noise outside at 10pm for a couple weeks till they caught on.

Brasscatcher84 · August 18, 2011, 12:23 AM

I've actually heard that parrots make great alarm animals in a house. Same with geese outside. Nothing gets by them without a racket that would wake the dead.

Brasscatcher84 · August 18, 2011, 12:29 AM

Also, I've installed magnetic door chime alarms on all windows and doors. Whole set cost me $86. No monitoring, but where I live, it wouldn't do any good. If I called 911, it would take the sheriff's office 45 minutes to get here. Usually, if anything goes down out here, the SO calls me or my neighbor to check it out anyway (we're both reserves).

shortwave · August 18, 2011, 01:04 AM

Also know guinea's make excellent alarms and make so much noise when alarmed you'll want to shoot them to shut them up.

There are three entrance doors in this house. On the inside of all the storm doors we have these small decorative metal looking nik-nak things my wife picked up at a home interior store. I've taken very small bells and hung on them. If the outside door is moved in the slightest, you hear it. So do my dogs and they automatically go to that door barking.

We have up/down slider windows in which I've made windows braces to keep windows from being slid open.

An alarm system as well as motion lights stategically placed.

I like the motion lights cause hopefully they will go off before someone gets to the house scaring them away.

Far as kids went, we had four so I tried to secure the house best I could so if a BG showed up, he would make noises from the outside of the house trying to get in rather than me having to go through what you did.

Train that dog to these noise's and he'll alert you before someone can enter your house, not after. You'd probably be surprised at what he/she can learn if you're patient with her.

Also, I read you're a reserve deputy sheriff. Talk with a few of the sheriff depts. K-9 dog handlers and get a few pointers as to how to train your lab if you don't know. One of the K-9 trainers for Cols., Ohio PD has been very instrumental in the training my shephard and you would have to kill him to get in this house at night.

Almost forgot...Baby Minders, if you don't know what they are your wife will know. They work well as you can put the mike at the far side of your house/garage and the reciever on your nightstand and you can here any comotion in your house/garage from your bedroom. I keep a mike in my garage thats probably 60ft from the house and I can hear anything that moves in there from the bedroom.

Hope some of this helps.

Daugherty16 · August 18, 2011, 11:54 AM

Even a cocker spaniel, like my wife's, that isn't even slightly scary makes enough racket to wake the dead and starts barking at things 200 yards away. I mean, you can't change the layout of your house, so you either train the one you have or get a super territorial dog. Best alarm system ever. Bigger dogs have the added physical deterrant factor. You think anyone is purposely breaking in when he can hear a german shepard on the other side of the door, telling him "Die, MF" in dog language? Not likely.

Might want to also install a sturdy door and locks on your son's bedroom door too; effectively creating two safe rooms as part of your safety plan - yours and his. obviously you'll want the keys, but he could be a lot safer with the ability to lock himself in if woken up by your code word shouted through the house.

Ronbert · August 18, 2011, 01:53 PM

From experience - Parrots are not great alarm animals unless the intruder is trying to take them from their cages (to clip wings or toenails).

I'm sure the young man launched thru the screen door will be a lot more careful in the future and might even remember it when he's a teen sneaking home after curfew.....

Baby minders could be useful but don't forget - using one means you're bugging yourself. Many of them are not encrypted and you're transmitting for everyone with a scanner to hear.

Gus-gus · August 18, 2011, 07:04 PM

I prefer systems which don't eat or poop. This includes electric consumption. During a power outage nothing works.

What choices are there, that aren't consumers.

Brasscatcher84 · August 18, 2011, 08:32 PM

Well, Gus, I guess there's bells, tin cans on a string, trip wires, and all sorts of mechanical devices.

Gus-gus · August 18, 2011, 08:38 PM

You are probably correct in a homeless tent city look. I was thinking of pressure mats, and trip wires. But motion sensors (battery operated) or as you had mentioned motion lights, with the associated intruder warnings in the house would be a better use of my energy.

FireForged · August 18, 2011, 09:03 PM

I feel that a childs room should be as close as possible to the Parents and that there should be strict rules about bedtime. If someone were to get into my house, I want to be able to immediately retrieve my child and defend everyone in one spot. Roaming around a dark house in search of a badguy is just not a good idea in my book.

shortwave · August 18, 2011, 09:31 PM

Solar lights,although usually not bright can be utilized also.

We have then around the pool and down the walk-way to the pool.

They're bright enough to let me see if someones out there.

BG's don't like light of any kind.

Gus-gus · August 18, 2011, 09:35 PM

YUP shortwave they especially do not like the flash of a 45 ACP!!

shortwave · August 18, 2011, 09:58 PM

Sure your right Gus.

But thats constitutes consumption

BillCA · August 19, 2011, 07:38 PM

For low cost outdoor security...

Shortwave is right. Those solar walkway lights aren't bright, but placed on the far side of the walkway (or yard) will let you see someone walking in front of them.

There are a couple of brands of "driveway" alarms. These wireless devices use a a photo-beam circuit (some are I/R) across your driveway to ring the bell inside the house. If you're in suburbia, arrange one to cover your front porch (say, mounted behind front columns). In the back yard, some have enough output to cover the width of the house. Mount it waist high and clear of plants so anyone approaching from the rear breaks the beam.

Exterior windows:
If you have tall shrubs around windows for some privacy, trim the bottoms to prevent the shrubs from hiding someone easily. Trim up almost to the window sill to reveal their legs.

If you have flowerbeds or grass, remove about 18-20" of soil from the area below the window and fill with chunks of granite rock or pea gravel up to 2 feet on either side of the window. This means a "crunchy" surface for someone who is approaching or at the window.

Sash windows (up/down sliders) can be pinned closed with a pin lock. The spring-loaded pin on the lock engages pre-drilled holes in the sash frame. You can lock the window open in several positions. Place the lock high up on the moving window frame as possible to prevent reaching in to release it.

The best way to protect your kids (and home) is to arrange it so your kids have a something better than a teddy bear to cuddle.

He can reach the back fence in 2.1 seconds. Can you?

August 16, 2011, 11:49 AM	#30
catnphx Senior Member Join Date: February 27, 2011 Location: North Phoenix, AZ Posts: 168	Lots of good suggestions listed already. Your wife needs to be part of the solution ... you need to wake her up and work together as a team; you need a plan that you've already discussed. In my opinion (and I'm trying not to "Tuesday morning quarterback"), the first focus would be to quickly get to the kids room and secure him. I wouldn't even clear the house in the normal fashion ... just safely and quickly get to your kid's room. Was a cell phone in your pocket? Once you've got the kid, call the cops and wait. Anyway, these are scary situations and I'm glad it turned out ok. Use it as a learning opportunity and move forward. Thanks for sharing. __________________ Smith & Wesson M&P 9 FS (w/ mounted TLR-1) Smith & Wesson M&P 9c (w/ Crossbreed Supertuck IWB) Smith & Wesson .357 640-1 (w/ Galco KingTuk IWB) Kahr CW9 (w/ Kholster Crescent IWB)

August 16, 2011, 12:54 PM	#33
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	+1 on waking up the wife. If nothing else, she can call 911 if there really is someone in the house. Even if he defeats you, she's awake and alert (hopefully). No kids here, but I used to have multiple cats. Strategically placed night lights will help illuminate the darker parts of the house. Stick one in a bathroom and it'll help light a hallway. One in a dark living room will give you plenty of light to see shadows or silhouettes. On sliding glass doors, put a thin strip of reflective tape on the glass (to show it's closed). A quick flick of the light will tell you if the door is closed, even if the screen is closed. My lesson was learned after thoroughly cleaning the glass door one day and that night hearing an odd noise and not being able to see if the door was open or not from the hallway. Look for remote lighting switches. There are various sorts. A friend has a 2-story place and part of the upper hallway can look down to the living room. A button is pressed and two lights come on downstairs, giving him a commanding view. From what I can tell, you did most things right. Not waking the wife and finding the door open should have told you to retreat and wake her for help. Do practice what you both will do in such an event. Can you even traverse the house to protect your son? If not, can you reach around a corner and flip on a light that doesn't give you away completely? What have you told your son to do if he hears gunfire at O-dark-thirty in the morning? __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)

August 17, 2011, 08:29 PM	#35
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	Heck of a hariy tale, Brasscatcher Glad to hear everything turned out alright. I'm sure you'll laugh at that story in the future. Take the comments of the "monday morning quarterbacks" with a grain of salt. We all know better after the sun comes up. You learned form the situation, and by sharing the story you have helped all of us learn form it too. Thanks for the post. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

August 17, 2011, 10:52 PM	#36
amprecon Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 1999 Location: TN Posts: 786	Well, I guess I can suggest cats for one home defense solution, ever wake up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom or get a drink and the cat walks between your feet nearly sending you head over heels? If they'd do the same thing to an intruder in your house sneaking around trying to be quiet, I think it'd work pretty good. __________________ "You can't get 'em all Josey." "That's a fact". "Well how come you doin' this then?" "Cause I got nothin' better to do."

August 18, 2011, 01:04 AM	#40
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Also know guinea's make excellent alarms and make so much noise when alarmed you'll want to shoot them to shut them up. There are three entrance doors in this house. On the inside of all the storm doors we have these small decorative metal looking nik-nak things my wife picked up at a home interior store. I've taken very small bells and hung on them. If the outside door is moved in the slightest, you hear it. So do my dogs and they automatically go to that door barking. We have up/down slider windows in which I've made windows braces to keep windows from being slid open. An alarm system as well as motion lights stategically placed. I like the motion lights cause hopefully they will go off before someone gets to the house scaring them away. Far as kids went, we had four so I tried to secure the house best I could so if a BG showed up, he would make noises from the outside of the house trying to get in rather than me having to go through what you did. Train that dog to these noise's and he'll alert you before someone can enter your house, not after. You'd probably be surprised at what he/she can learn if you're patient with her. Also, I read you're a reserve deputy sheriff. Talk with a few of the sheriff depts. K-9 dog handlers and get a few pointers as to how to train your lab if you don't know. One of the K-9 trainers for Cols., Ohio PD has been very instrumental in the training my shephard and you would have to kill him to get in this house at night. Almost forgot...Baby Minders, if you don't know what they are your wife will know. They work well as you can put the mike at the far side of your house/garage and the reciever on your nightstand and you can here any comotion in your house/garage from your bedroom. I keep a mike in my garage thats probably 60ft from the house and I can hear anything that moves in there from the bedroom. Hope some of this helps. Last edited by shortwave; August 18, 2011 at 01:18 AM.

August 16, 2011, 09:48 AM	#26
doofus47 Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2010 Location: live in a in a house when i'm not in a tent Posts: 2,483	Our daughter used to get up and wander. We put a bell on her door. Kind of medieval, but effective.

August 16, 2011, 10:14 AM	#28
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	This is one reason I never could understand the house feature of having the "master suite" on the opposite end of the house from the kids' rooms. Sure you want privacy at times but I'd rather be close to my kids in case they get sick or an instance like this. In my house, 3 steps from the bed put all my dependants behind me leaving anyone else within a clear firing area. My bedroom also dominated the normal approach to the primary door by overlooking the deck and driveway both of which were lighted by a dusk to dawn light. Change the angles of the doors so the blind spots are eliminated and put a bell on the door and/or boy.

August 16, 2011, 10:41 AM	#29
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I think the split-plan house, or houses with master suites on the 1st floor and kids rooms on the 2nd floor are the worst things ever designed. If you want to know what your kids are up to and make an effort to be a part of their lives, part of that is not being detached from, but living together with your children. On another note, if someone were to break into my house, they would be sliding, and opening multiple doors before they could get to the bedrooms where we sleep, unless they break through the outside doors going directly to our beedroom. I, or the dog, would here them long before they could ever reach the back bedrooms. It's easy to isolate where the night "noise" is coming from, and thus pretty easy to clear.

August 16, 2011, 12:31 PM	#31
Brasscatcher84 Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 128	A lot of people come on very sternly with "well FIRST check on the kid" so I feel I must reiterate that THE ENTIRE HOUSE is between my room and his room. My home is a single level open floor plan with the bedrooms and bathrooms off of the main section. Getting to him prior to clearing the house is not an option unless I want to blindly trip over the BG.

August 16, 2011, 12:38 PM	#32
secret_agent_man Junior member Join Date: March 25, 2011 Posts: 463	A lot of your problem would have been solved by the maxim to positively identify the suspect before opening fire. If you feel that places you in potential danger, well, that's simply the way it has to work to avoid unwanted shootings. Luckily, you played it right.

August 18, 2011, 12:14 AM	#37
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Training most any dog, even a lab to be on alert at night is not a hard thing to do. May take some time but well worth it. A friend of mine(old neighbor) has three black labs and I guarantee you won't get in that house at night without them waking someone up. They are NOT trained killers by a long shot and may not even bite someone if they got into the house, but he's taught them to bark if they hear something during the night. I know, I was his training guinea pig making noise outside at 10pm for a couple weeks till they caught on.

August 18, 2011, 12:23 AM	#38
Brasscatcher84 Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 128	I've actually heard that parrots make great alarm animals in a house. Same with geese outside. Nothing gets by them without a racket that would wake the dead.

August 18, 2011, 12:29 AM	#39
Brasscatcher84 Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 128	Also, I've installed magnetic door chime alarms on all windows and doors. Whole set cost me $86. No monitoring, but where I live, it wouldn't do any good. If I called 911, it would take the sheriff's office 45 minutes to get here. Usually, if anything goes down out here, the SO calls me or my neighbor to check it out anyway (we're both reserves).

August 18, 2011, 11:54 AM	#41
Daugherty16 Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2008 Location: Live Free or Die state Posts: 259	Get a hyperactive dog Even a cocker spaniel, like my wife's, that isn't even slightly scary makes enough racket to wake the dead and starts barking at things 200 yards away. I mean, you can't change the layout of your house, so you either train the one you have or get a super territorial dog. Best alarm system ever. Bigger dogs have the added physical deterrant factor. You think anyone is purposely breaking in when he can hear a german shepard on the other side of the door, telling him "Die, MF" in dog language? Not likely. Might want to also install a sturdy door and locks on your son's bedroom door too; effectively creating two safe rooms as part of your safety plan - yours and his. obviously you'll want the keys, but he could be a lot safer with the ability to lock himself in if woken up by your code word shouted through the house. __________________ "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness... How pathetic." - - Ted Nugent "Cogito, Ergo Armitum Sum" - (I Think, Therefore I Am Armed)- - anon.

August 18, 2011, 01:53 PM	#42
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	From experience - Parrots are not great alarm animals unless the intruder is trying to take them from their cages (to clip wings or toenails). I'm sure the young man launched thru the screen door will be a lot more careful in the future and might even remember it when he's a teen sneaking home after curfew..... Baby minders could be useful but don't forget - using one means you're bugging yourself. Many of them are not encrypted and you're transmitting for everyone with a scanner to hear.

August 18, 2011, 07:04 PM	#43
Gus-gus Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Washington, Stincoma. Posts: 60	I prefer systems which don't eat or poop. This includes electric consumption. During a power outage nothing works. What choices are there, that aren't consumers.

August 18, 2011, 08:32 PM	#44
Brasscatcher84 Junior member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 128	Well, Gus, I guess there's bells, tin cans on a string, trip wires, and all sorts of mechanical devices.

August 18, 2011, 08:38 PM	#45
Gus-gus Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Washington, Stincoma. Posts: 60	You are probably correct in a homeless tent city look. I was thinking of pressure mats, and trip wires. But motion sensors (battery operated) or as you had mentioned motion lights, with the associated intruder warnings in the house would be a better use of my energy. Last edited by Gus-gus; August 18, 2011 at 08:59 PM.

August 18, 2011, 09:03 PM	#46
FireForged Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 1999 Location: Rebel South USA Posts: 2,074	I feel that a childs room should be as close as possible to the Parents and that there should be strict rules about bedtime. If someone were to get into my house, I want to be able to immediately retrieve my child and defend everyone in one spot. Roaming around a dark house in search of a badguy is just not a good idea in my book. __________________ Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...

August 18, 2011, 09:31 PM	#47
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Solar lights,although usually not bright can be utilized also. We have then around the pool and down the walk-way to the pool. They're bright enough to let me see if someones out there. BG's don't like light of any kind.

August 18, 2011, 09:35 PM	#48
Gus-gus Member Join Date: July 1, 2011 Location: Washington, Stincoma. Posts: 60	YUP shortwave they especially do not like the flash of a 45 ACP!!

August 18, 2011, 09:58 PM	#49
shortwave Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 2007 Location: SOUTHEAST, OHIO Posts: 5,970	Sure your right Gus. But thats constitutes consumption

August 19, 2011, 07:38 PM	#50
BillCA Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 2004 Location: Silicon Valley, Ca Posts: 7,117	For low cost outdoor security... Shortwave is right. Those solar walkway lights aren't bright, but placed on the far side of the walkway (or yard) will let you see someone walking in front of them. There are a couple of brands of "driveway" alarms. These wireless devices use a a photo-beam circuit (some are I/R) across your driveway to ring the bell inside the house. If you're in suburbia, arrange one to cover your front porch (say, mounted behind front columns). In the back yard, some have enough output to cover the width of the house. Mount it waist high and clear of plants so anyone approaching from the rear breaks the beam. Exterior windows: If you have tall shrubs around windows for some privacy, trim the bottoms to prevent the shrubs from hiding someone easily. Trim up almost to the window sill to reveal their legs. If you have flowerbeds or grass, remove about 18-20" of soil from the area below the window and fill with chunks of granite rock or pea gravel up to 2 feet on either side of the window. This means a "crunchy" surface for someone who is approaching or at the window. Sash windows (up/down sliders) can be pinned closed with a pin lock. The spring-loaded pin on the lock engages pre-drilled holes in the sash frame. You can lock the window open in several positions. Place the lock high up on the moving window frame as possible to prevent reaching in to release it. The best way to protect your kids (and home) is to arrange it so your kids have a something better than a teddy bear to cuddle. He can reach the back fence in 2.1 seconds. Can you? __________________ BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)