Enfield Pattern 14

johnwilliamson062 · October 9, 2009, 12:44 PM

For one in average shape, say what you might expect to be shipped from Samco Global, what would you expect to pay?

It has apparently been rechambered in 308 and seems to be from India, that doesn't sound like a P14 to me, but rather an Ishapora.

RJay · October 9, 2009, 02:43 PM

If it's from India and chambered in .308, I do not believe it is not a Pattern 14. Changed my post, I may not have had the latest information.

ksstargazer · October 11, 2009, 07:10 AM

Actually, Ishapores are selling now for quite a bit more than $100. I haven't seen that price for over 5 years. At a local gunshow yesterday, I saw 3 and the cheapest was $225. I am generally seeing them for over $200.
If they are mistakened and it is a P14, those are worth, depending on condition, at least $350.

Aussie Pete · October 12, 2009, 11:56 PM

The Ishapore 7.62 rifiles are known as the "Ishapore 2A1" and were converted from the SMLE rifle in 1962.
The SMLE rifles were No.1 Mark 111* converted by Ishapore from .303 to take the 7.62 (.308) military ammo. The Mark 111* rifle is much stronger than the earlier P14 and the much later No4 Marks. Also the P14 had a 5 shot magazine, was heavier and the barrel steel is not as good.
These Indian Ishapore rifles can be easily recognized by the square box shape 10 round magazine (the 7.62 being rimless) as opposed to the .303 rimmed sloping SMLE 10 round magazine.
A good book for reference is Ian Skennerton's "The Enfield Story". It details the Indian Ishapore conversion.

dannydesiliva · October 15, 2009, 02:30 AM

Hopefully, this is the correct forum for this inquiry......

During the last influx of P-14s to this country around ten years ago, I noticed that most were lacking the volley sights and brass marking disc. I also recall a mention somewhere that this was an arsenal modification done either prior to or during WWII. Does anyone have the info on this modification?

Sasquatch in MN · October 31, 2009, 12:51 AM

Looks to be post WWII wood on that one. Every one Ive seen has had the brass disc in place or the stock had been routed to accept one.

gyvel · October 31, 2009, 03:30 AM

Quote:

The Ishapore 7.62 rifiles are known as the "Ishapore 2A1" and were converted from the SMLE rifle in 1962.
The SMLE rifles were No.1 Mark 111* converted by Ishapore from .303 to take the 7.62 (.308) military ammo. The Mark 111* rifle is much stronger than the earlier P14 and the much later No4 Marks. Also the P14 had a 5 shot magazine, was heavier and the barrel steel is not as good.
These Indian Ishapore rifles can be easily recognized by the square box shape 10 round magazine (the 7.62 being rimless) as opposed to the .303 rimmed sloping SMLE 10 round magazine.
A good book for reference is Ian Skennerton's "The Enfield Story". It details the Indian Ishapore conversion.

So much wrong information here, I don't know where to begin.

First, Ishapore rifles weren't "converted" from No. 1 Mk III rifles. Completely new receivers ("bodies") were made from nickel vanadium alloy steel that had much higher tensile strength than the old receivers. These are known as "EN" receivers. Tests conducted in Australia on No. 1 Mk IIIs found the originals to be severely lacking in strength in conversion tests to .308/7.62 NATO, often with receivers stretching dangerously/cracking after firing just a few proof rounds. The barrels on Ishapore 2As were also newly made, as well as buttstocks. Since Ishapore never retooled for No. 4 production, newly made parts for No. 1 Mk III rifles were readily available. The 2A rifles are not "conversions" in the sense that .303 rifles were not converted to .308, but, rather, newly made rifles, much the same way that the U.S. Model of 1917 was not a "conversion" of the Pattern '14 .303. Also, magazines are 12 rounds, not 10.

Second, the No. 1 Mk III is NOT as strong as a Pattern '14 rifle. The Pattern '13, '14 and subsequent U.S. Model of 1917 rifles have withstood overpressure loads in excess of 100,000 psi. These rifles are completely different than the Lee-Enfields, anyway, as they are based on the Mauser rifle. Furthermore, all Pattern 14 rifles were made in the U.S. under peacetime conditions and the materials used were the finest available.

Additionally, No. 1 Mk IIIs are NOT as strong as No. 4 rifles. The No. 4 rifle was developed specifically to address the inherent weaknesses in the No. 1 Mk IIIs. The fact that the No. 4 rifles were subsequently converted/rebarreled (using old .303 recievers, not newly produced ones) and issued in H.M. Armed Forces as the L8 series, L39 and L42 sniper (not declared obsolescent until 1992), certainly attests to their strength.

If you have access to a copy of
The Lee Enfield Story by Ian Skennerton, you may want to reread accounts of these rifles and their histories and specifics.

October 9, 2009, 12:44 PM	#1
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Enfield Pattern 14 For one in average shape, say what you might expect to be shipped from Samco Global, what would you expect to pay? It has apparently been rechambered in 308 and seems to be from India, that doesn't sound like a P14 to me, but rather an Ishapora.

October 9, 2009, 02:43 PM	#2
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	If it's from India and chambered in .308, I do not believe it is not a Pattern 14. Changed my post, I may not have had the latest information. Last edited by RJay; October 11, 2009 at 11:00 AM.

October 12, 2009, 11:56 PM	#4
Aussie Pete Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Queensland Australia Posts: 15	The Ishapore 7.62 rifiles are known as the "Ishapore 2A1" and were converted from the SMLE rifle in 1962. The SMLE rifles were No.1 Mark 111* converted by Ishapore from .303 to take the 7.62 (.308) military ammo. The Mark 111* rifle is much stronger than the earlier P14 and the much later No4 Marks. Also the P14 had a 5 shot magazine, was heavier and the barrel steel is not as good. These Indian Ishapore rifles can be easily recognized by the square box shape 10 round magazine (the 7.62 being rimless) as opposed to the .303 rimmed sloping SMLE 10 round magazine. A good book for reference is Ian Skennerton's "The Enfield Story". It details the Indian Ishapore conversion. __________________ We are what we are because of what we were: Last edited by Aussie Pete; October 13, 2009 at 01:28 AM.

October 15, 2009, 02:30 AM	#5
dannydesiliva Junior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Posts: 7	U.S. Enfield P-14 Modifications Hopefully, this is the correct forum for this inquiry...... During the last influx of P-14s to this country around ten years ago, I noticed that most were lacking the volley sights and brass marking disc. I also recall a mention somewhere that this was an arsenal modification done either prior to or during WWII. Does anyone have the info on this modification?

October 31, 2009, 12:51 AM	#6
Sasquatch in MN Member Join Date: January 21, 2009 Posts: 93	Looks to be post WWII wood on that one. Every one Ive seen has had the brass disc in place or the stock had been routed to accept one. __________________ Making the world a better place, one rifle at a time. Visit us online at www.RCArms.com

October 11, 2009, 07:10 AM	#3
ksstargazer Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2004 Location: Flint Hills of Kansas Posts: 316	Actually, Ishapores are selling now for quite a bit more than $100. I haven't seen that price for over 5 years. At a local gunshow yesterday, I saw 3 and the cheapest was $225. I am generally seeing them for over $200. If they are mistakened and it is a P14, those are worth, depending on condition, at least $350.