OAL question

[Who7]

I am new to the forums. when I started reloading i have the lee modern reloading 2nd edition. I started with 9mm with WSF powder. the min oal was 1.169 and the max. which shows on the picture at the begining of the 9mm section also states 1.169 and so really no question on what the OAL should be.

With this being said i started loading 45 ACP. the powder i am using is HP38. the max oal per the picture at the beginging of the 45 acp section states 1.275. the mim OAL that it shows for the powder and bullet I am using is 1.200. When i seated the bullet to 1.200 it seems to be seated to far down and was not going to be able to crimp well enough since the opening of the casing was now where the bullet started to round for the nose. I took some factory ammo from 2 different manufactors and to see what their OAL was and both was 1.265. 10 thousands of an inch shorter than the max OAL.

Now that being said, here is my question.

When you are reloading when you look at the data, should keep the OAL in the middel of the min and max, or should it be at min, or should it be slightly under the max OAL?

I am guessing the max OAL is to ensure that it will feed and work in all guns of that cal. the min i am guessing is what they set it at when they tested it to get the data we are looking at and the pressures.

Any insite would be appreciated.

Who7

[j357]

Take a look at the .45 ACP reloading sticky at the top of the forum. It will give you some good info and the thread has lots of pics and input.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=407195

For 230gn RN .45 I have found 1.234 as a good OAL in my guns. YMMV.

[noylj]

COL depends on the gun and the bullet. There is no single COL. The COL you have for the 9x19 is NOT the COL most reloaders use. That is the max COL per SAAMI for the industry.
Here is what Western Powder says:
"SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove."

In the barrel of a semi-auto that head-spaces on the case mouth (as shown in every reloading manual I have ever read) is a "ledge" that the case mouth head spaces against. After that is a short "throat" leading the lede/rifling. The length of the throat varies with different makers.
Your job, as a relaoder, is to determine the COL that allows a round to fit the magazine and chamber easily in the barrel.
The COL shown is a reloading manual is the COL they used for testing. It is NOT a recommended COL and should be seen only as the minimum COL that the data applies to.
I load long in most guns, as I like to minimize the "head space" and have the case head as close to be breech face as possible.
What I, and many others, do is to start by making a couple of inert (no powder or primers) dummy rounds and seating the bullet to about the max COL. I then remove as much of the case mouth flare/bell as possible to have the round drop in the barrel and not drag along the chamber due to the flare.
Then, I take the barrel (some use a case gage) to see how the rounds chamber. In most cases, they don't chamber because the COL is too long. I then seat the bullets in small increments until the rounds do chamber.
I then assemble the gun, put the two inert rounds in a magazine and cycle the gun. If the rounds don't fit the magazine, then I seat the bullets slightly deeper until they do. If they don't feed, I seat the bullets slightly deeper until they do. I then make a note of that COL.
I then load up five rounds with the lowest starting load I find in at least two manuals, turn the seating stem about 1/2 turn and load another five rounds. I make a series of five rounds at shorter COL either until the rounds simply look too short or until I reach the longest COL given in a couple of loading manuals. Then, I go to the range and determine what range of COL works best. Sometimes, the starting load is light enough that the gun doesn't cycle, but that is just fine with me at this point.
I then go home and load a series of rounds at the COL that seemed best with 5-10 rounds at increasing charge weights.
This is more involved than many people go through, but I get almost all my guns to shoot at least 2" groups at 25 yards, as I shoot for accuracy and not power or speed.
Do not ever simply average things--you should want to get the most out of your gun.
If you simply want to shoot and not fine-tune your loads, at least find a factory round with the same bullet profile. You can use the factory round to establish the COL and taper crimp that will get you going.
And, yes, if the bullet looks too deeply seated, it probably is. Remember, different bullets have different profiles and different COLs that work. There is no magic COL for a given cartridge. The COL, as mentioned above, is dependent on the bullet profile, the magazine, and the barrel's chamber--and don't think that all guns of a given make have the same chamber dimensions.

[steve4102]

Thank You noylj, that or something similar should be a Sticky. Far, Far to many handloaders think that OAL is manual specific and written in stone.

[mjes92]

Welcome Who7,

I just happen to be working on 9mm loads right now and measured 4 different manufactures O.A.L last night to compare.

1.115", 1.150", 1.162", 1.168"

It largely depends on the Ogive (profile) of the bullet. Typically the more pointed the bullet profile the longer the OAL. Is your case length in spec?
You have asked one of the most common questions on the forum. Do a search on the topic. Some guys load just so the loaded rounds fit in the magazine and others stick to publish lengths. My rule of thumb = its better to load long rather than short. Loading to short can cause a high pressure situation. An overly exposed case lip may cause feeding problems.

I ended up loading to the most similar ogive factory ammo dimesions. OAL was about .015" over publised data but well bellow max length. And crimped just enough to match factory that feed well in my pistol.

Good luck

[Wreck-n-Crew]

First things first you have your powders mixed up. WSF is not as good a 9mm powder as HP-38 and WSF is great for .45ACP. You can use the HP-38 for both if you want.

About the time my WST got wet I started loading 45. Since I picked up some WSF already for the 45 I figured I would try it in 9mm. Performed okay but way to dirty.

Not to mention WSF is a slower burning powder and slower burning pistol powders perform better in 45 ACP.

COL depends on the gun and the bullet. There is no single COL. The COL you have for the 9x19 is NOT the COL most reloaders use. That is the max COL per SAAMI for the industry.

What he said^^^^
USE this as your guide for setting your OAL.

[Who7]

Thank you all for your imput. the reason why the WSF for the 9mm was that was the only powder i could get my hands on at the time and it was listed in the reloading manual. and i just now got the hp38. the diagram really helps out as well.

[Wreck-n-Crew]

By the way welcome to TFL!

the reason why the WSF for the 9mm was that was the only powder i could get my hands on at the time and it was listed in the reloading manual.

Been there, that's how I ended up with WST, turns out it works well in 9mm but no load data!. Had to depend on forums to find a good Powder load to start with.

Later found some WSF and it works good with the .45acp. HP-38 is better for 9mm, Definitely use it over the WSF.

You have two good powders for the two calibers you reload, can't beat that!

As far as the photo, use the actual barrel as your gauge (you probably already figured that out).

Have fun, be safe and enjoy! Get us some reports on those reloads when you get done.

[Nick_C_S]

Welcome to The Firing Line Who7

You should copy/paste noylj's explanation into a Word.doc and keep it forever - it's that good. And the illustration that Wreck-n-Crew put up is highly invaluable too (although, it circulates around - you'll see it again).

Now, you don't have to go to the 'nth degree on determining the perfect COL with every load recipe you create. But it's important to understand the process behind it. As a for instance, when I'm using the exact bullet in a load manual, I usually set the COL to the book spec - knowing that is a minimum COL, and I may go longer. (Going shorter means reducing the published loads, because pressure increases when internal cartridge volume is reduced.) I am almost always perfectly satisfied with the published COL - remember, this only applies when loading the exact bullet published.

Determining COL is a little tricky (just a little). I am glad I was initiated with loading with revolver rounds - seat/crimp at the cannelure - done. I was wondering why the calipers came with the reload kit lol. But it was good to get some practical loading experience before dealing with COL. That was 1984. We now live in a world of semi-autos. But I still load 38 Spl target ammo more than any other.

Pay attention to detail. When in doubt, ask (there's lots of smart, experienced guys here). Trust your gut - if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't (like this time). And have fun. Welcome.

[iamdb]

I use WSF for 9mm. Works great for me. I shoot IDPA and found 5.0gr under 124 fmj to give me roughly 1041fps out of a 3.5" barrel. very minimal recoil. I have gotten my loads up to the mid 1400's in a 4.4" without pressure signs, but I prefer the loads just barely over power factor. I prefer it over titegroup which is one of the most popular comp. used powders in 9

[Wreck-n-Crew]

I use WSF for 9mm. Works great for me. I shoot IDPA and found 5.0gr under 124 fmj to give me roughly 1041fps out of a 3.5" barrel. very minimal recoil. I have gotten my loads up to the mid 1400's in a 4.4" without pressure signs, but I prefer the loads just barely over power factor. I prefer it over titegroup which is one of the most popular comp.

^^^^Makes a good point about performance aspect of powders. Just because some are better for reloaders who plink by maybe being cleaner burning, there is the performance side of it. In IDPA, accuracy is everything.

I have noticed that burning cleaner is often more important than FPS for plinkers. Being a plinker myself I like FPS performance with the FMJ but prefer a medium load for the cast to keep down leading and accuracy is great. Get them hot and you will have to scrub a little more.

[JustSomeGuy]

One thing about headspace in a semi-auto pistol. Headspace is the distance between the breech face and the back of the case in the chamber. Too much and the fired case slams into the breech which will eventually cause some damage as well as possibly weakening the case. Too little or no headspace and the breech cannot close... you will not go fully into battery and the action will not be "locked" which can cause a number of problems you really don't want. Obviously, if the round is "headspacing on the bullet" you are in trouble, as pistol powders are very fast and the bullet needs to move a bit upon firing or pressure will build to "pipe bomb" pressure almost instantly. So... if you do the "plunk test" and the bullet is hitting the lands in the barrel you will want to shorten the round by at least 0.010" to get off the lands and leave some space for movement of the bullet upon ignition.

So... like others have said, OAL is gun and bullet specific. YOU must determine what is suitable for the particular use you are putting the round to, but loading longer than the "book" dimensions is generally more appropriate than loading shorter, especially without adjusting the powder charge downward.