Let's talk chemicals

Gregory Gauvin · December 15, 2009, 03:16 AM

So what's the REAL story behind Sweets 7.62? Is it safe? Does it etch barrels, or only when mixed with other chemicals? Does ammonia dissolve chrome?

In my experience the best copper remover I have ever used is the GunSlick Foaming Bore cleaner. Has anyone tried KG-12 Copper Remover?

What do you find best to remove HEAVY copper fouled bores from Military Surplus rifles?

fineredmist · December 15, 2009, 08:38 AM

You do not need any real foul smelling chemicals to remove the lead and copper from a barrel. There is a product by the name of KROIL that does the trick without the smell. Kroil is a penetrating oil that will get into the smallest crevice and under lead and copper in the bore. Saturate the bore with Kroil and let it soak for 30 minutes or so and then run a brush followed by patches.

Hunter10pt · December 15, 2009, 10:36 AM

I have a friend who told me to make my own cleaner,

4 parts: 1 part Acid-tone
1 part Ford Trans Fluid
1 part Mineral spirit
1 part Kerosene

Has anyone used this and also was told NOT to get on anything but the barrel. I was looking for a cleaner to take out all the Plastic build up in my Slug Gun from the Sabot's I use.

mapsjanhere · December 15, 2009, 10:48 AM

The acetone in your mix will make it hard on wood finishes. As for plastic gunk, most plastics don't dissolve, all they do is swell up (unless you soak them in chloroform for a month). Your mix should do well on them if you let it soak for an hour before hitting it with a brass brush.

Gregory Gauvin · December 15, 2009, 10:53 AM

I did a little test with a copper penny. I put a dab of JB Bore Compound on a q-tip and rubbed it on a penny. It shined the penny.

I did the same test with Sweets 7.62, it worked much faster at shining the penny.

I did the test again with GunSlick Foaming Bore cleaner (non-foul smelling, no ammonia, can leave in barrel for extended time) and behold: This stuff worked the best and shined the penny MUCH faster than the powerful Sweets 7.62. It remains my favorite copper remover.

I had a heavy copper fouled 1918 dated barrel on my Model 1917. I was shooting the bore foam down the barrel for several applications over a period of days and letting it drip out, and it continued to come out dark blue indicating copper. I was getting frustrated not being able to get the copper out so I opted to try the Sweets 7.62 and JB Bore compound. Perhaps the initial cleanings with the bore foam removed most of the copper, as I followed the directions with the sweets and the JB and applied both of these cleaners 1 times, followed by another application of the GunSlick. This time, the gunslick did not turn blue indicating copper.

It makes me suspect that although the foam seems to clean the copper the best, either the Sweets or the JB compound finished whatever remaining copper was in the barrel to which I can not understand if there was only a small amount of copper left, why the gunslick did not lighten up in color prior to the applications of the Sweets and JB.

Perhaps a layer of power fouling caked onto a layer of copper (as I understand, copper and be layered between power fouling) to which the Sweets or JB loosened up. The gunslick does a WONDERFUL job of removing copper but doesn't seem to do too well a job at removing power fouling. I tend to use Hoppes and such for this. The first patch with the Sweets pulled a lot of black crap out of the bore.

This is a mystery.

I did the copper penny test with Kroil Oil and it did not shine the penny.

Christchild · December 15, 2009, 11:05 AM

While I don't have any CM steel barrels, I only have Stainless...

I use Butch's Bore Shine ONLY. Some feel that Butch's is abrasive, but I have YET to see ANY confirmation of that. I use Butch's and Iosso Eliminator Brushes which are polymer bristles on a brass core. I get Second-To-None results.

Hunter10pt · December 15, 2009, 11:11 AM

Show me a Cleaner that says on the bottle it "cleans plastic" out of the barrel. This has always made me wonder do the cleaner clean powder yes but plastic? We shoot a lot of slug(sabot) here in the lower part of MI.

Copper isn't the problem it's the powder and plastic build up.

I'm from old school and I NEVER pull anything down my barrel only pull out so cleaning takes time. Scrubing with a Spiralled SS wire is this good for Rifled barrel's?

Christchild · December 15, 2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Copper isn't the problem it's the powder and plastic build up

I'd have to do a bit of research to be able to talk about Plastic Removal, but the first thing that would come to my mind would be a stiff brush and some oil. I don't know of anything that cuts/dissolves plastic. I have a few Shotgun "brushes" that are made of spiralled stainless steel wire, but don't use that in a stainless barrel. CM steel barrels...I use the spiralled stainless in my 870 when I want to scrub it...

jglenn · December 15, 2009, 01:40 PM

I believe Brownells now has a cleaner specifially made to remove plastic in a bore.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...UN_WAD_SOLVENT

brickeyee · December 15, 2009, 04:23 PM

Quote:

I don't know of anything that cuts/dissolves plastic.

Depends on what "plastic" it is.

There are only hundreds of thousands of different ones.

Some can be dissolved in things like paint thinner, others need a 'hotter' solvent.

MEK will dissolve epoxy (a "plastic"), even faster if the MEK is gently heated with the plastic submerged in a beaker.

mapsjanhere · December 15, 2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

MEK will dissolve epoxy (a "plastic"), even faster if the MEK is gently heated with the plastic submerged in a beaker

Don't tell that to the TAA, or they outlaw MEK as a threat to the new Boeing and Airbus airliners that are held together by epoxy.
Actually, common epoxy resins are crosslinked thermosets and won't dissolve in anything but oxidizing acids.

Dfariswheel · December 15, 2009, 10:15 PM

Always read the bottle for the manufacturers instructions.
In Sweet's case, they specifically say not to allow it in the bore for very long.
Only a fool doesn't listen to the maker.

No bore solvent will "dissolve" chrome lined bores, since solvents don't attack the hard chrome as used inside barrels.
What some solvents can do is damage bright nickel plating or decorative chrome plating as used as a finish on guns.
There's a big difference between these platings and hard chrome.
The solvent can infiltrate under the bright nickel or "bumper chrome" plating through scratches, cracks, or thin spots and cause the plating to start to flake off.

Also note that we're hearing a lot about "chrome moly" rifle barrels in advertising
While this isn't strictly false advertising, it is often being used as a means of fooling the buyer into thinking he's getting a chrome LINED barrel.
All chrome moly is is a form of steel that's been used to make rifle barrels since the 1940's at least.
It has no chrome lining, and is actually just a quite ordinary bare steel barrel.
"Chrome Moly barrel" is today's "Tactical" or "National Match".

Ivan · December 16, 2009, 01:13 AM

Hello Hunter10Pt.

The home made bore cleaner is also known as Ed's Red (C.E. "Ed" Harris). You need to be a bit more specific with your formulation but it basically works pretty well. I believe Anhydrous Lanolin can also be added and I did that to my batches. I have probably used several quarts of the stuff over the years. It works well, but does nothing for copper fouling.

For Copper fouling, I generally use Sweets 7.62. For other fouling, I tend to use JB Bore Paste. Both products work pretty much as advertised. There may be better products, but these two work well enough that I am not really looking for others.

- Ivan.

brickeyee · December 16, 2009, 03:30 PM

"Actually, common epoxy resins are crosslinked thermosets and won't dissolve in anything but oxidizing acids."

Dissolve is not really the correct term, the epoxy is simply broken down by MEK.

I use it regularly to remove the dip epoxy on electronic components and to remove potting epoxy.

We had one lab technician who did not watch carefully when removing potting from a DC-DC power supply and even the FR4 board epoxy was removed. Nothing but copper traces and fiberglass left.

orionengnr · December 21, 2009, 09:28 PM

GG--Post #5
As far as the "copper penny" test goes, you have discovered which products remove corrosion from copper. This does not necessarily tell us anything about which products remove copper.

Similarly, when you tested the Kroil on a penny, you miss the point. The Kroil gets underneath the copper and lifts it--this is a mechanical action. Do not confuse this with dissolving the copper, which is a chemical action. Either one may be effective, but the way they go about it is different.

December 15, 2009, 03:16 AM	#1
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	Let's talk chemicals So what's the REAL story behind Sweets 7.62? Is it safe? Does it etch barrels, or only when mixed with other chemicals? Does ammonia dissolve chrome? In my experience the best copper remover I have ever used is the GunSlick Foaming Bore cleaner. Has anyone tried KG-12 Copper Remover? What do you find best to remove HEAVY copper fouled bores from Military Surplus rifles?

December 15, 2009, 10:36 AM	#3
Hunter10pt Junior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 7	old school I have a friend who told me to make my own cleaner, 4 parts: 1 part Acid-tone 1 part Ford Trans Fluid 1 part Mineral spirit 1 part Kerosene Has anyone used this and also was told NOT to get on anything but the barrel. I was looking for a cleaner to take out all the Plastic build up in my Slug Gun from the Sabot's I use.

December 15, 2009, 10:48 AM	#4
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	The acetone in your mix will make it hard on wood finishes. As for plastic gunk, most plastics don't dissolve, all they do is swell up (unless you soak them in chloroform for a month). Your mix should do well on them if you let it soak for an hour before hitting it with a brass brush. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 15, 2009, 11:11 AM	#7
Hunter10pt Junior Member Join Date: December 14, 2009 Posts: 7	Cleaner!! Show me a Cleaner that says on the bottle it "cleans plastic" out of the barrel. This has always made me wonder do the cleaner clean powder yes but plastic? We shoot a lot of slug(sabot) here in the lower part of MI. Copper isn't the problem it's the powder and plastic build up. I'm from old school and I NEVER pull anything down my barrel only pull out so cleaning takes time. Scrubing with a Spiralled SS wire is this good for Rifled barrel's? Last edited by Hunter10pt; December 15, 2009 at 12:13 PM.

December 15, 2009, 01:40 PM	#9
jglenn Member Join Date: May 22, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 56	plastic cleaner I believe Brownells now has a cleaner specifially made to remove plastic in a bore. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=1...UN_WAD_SOLVENT

December 15, 2009, 08:38 AM	#2
fineredmist Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Wethersfield, ct Posts: 128	You do not need any real foul smelling chemicals to remove the lead and copper from a barrel. There is a product by the name of KROIL that does the trick without the smell. Kroil is a penetrating oil that will get into the smallest crevice and under lead and copper in the bore. Saturate the bore with Kroil and let it soak for 30 minutes or so and then run a brush followed by patches.

December 15, 2009, 10:53 AM	#5
Gregory Gauvin Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Posts: 368	I did a little test with a copper penny. I put a dab of JB Bore Compound on a q-tip and rubbed it on a penny. It shined the penny. I did the same test with Sweets 7.62, it worked much faster at shining the penny. I did the test again with GunSlick Foaming Bore cleaner (non-foul smelling, no ammonia, can leave in barrel for extended time) and behold: This stuff worked the best and shined the penny MUCH faster than the powerful Sweets 7.62. It remains my favorite copper remover. I had a heavy copper fouled 1918 dated barrel on my Model 1917. I was shooting the bore foam down the barrel for several applications over a period of days and letting it drip out, and it continued to come out dark blue indicating copper. I was getting frustrated not being able to get the copper out so I opted to try the Sweets 7.62 and JB Bore compound. Perhaps the initial cleanings with the bore foam removed most of the copper, as I followed the directions with the sweets and the JB and applied both of these cleaners 1 times, followed by another application of the GunSlick. This time, the gunslick did not turn blue indicating copper. It makes me suspect that although the foam seems to clean the copper the best, either the Sweets or the JB compound finished whatever remaining copper was in the barrel to which I can not understand if there was only a small amount of copper left, why the gunslick did not lighten up in color prior to the applications of the Sweets and JB. Perhaps a layer of power fouling caked onto a layer of copper (as I understand, copper and be layered between power fouling) to which the Sweets or JB loosened up. The gunslick does a WONDERFUL job of removing copper but doesn't seem to do too well a job at removing power fouling. I tend to use Hoppes and such for this. The first patch with the Sweets pulled a lot of black crap out of the bore. This is a mystery. I did the copper penny test with Kroil Oil and it did not shine the penny. Last edited by Gregory Gauvin; December 15, 2009 at 10:59 AM.

December 15, 2009, 11:05 AM	#6
Christchild Senior Member Join Date: June 19, 2009 Location: Loadbenchville, Bolt 02770 Posts: 544	While I don't have any CM steel barrels, I only have Stainless... I use Butch's Bore Shine ONLY. Some feel that Butch's is abrasive, but I have YET to see ANY confirmation of that. I use Butch's and Iosso Eliminator Brushes which are polymer bristles on a brass core. I get Second-To-None results.

December 15, 2009, 10:15 PM	#12
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	Always read the bottle for the manufacturers instructions. In Sweet's case, they specifically say not to allow it in the bore for very long. Only a fool doesn't listen to the maker. No bore solvent will "dissolve" chrome lined bores, since solvents don't attack the hard chrome as used inside barrels. What some solvents can do is damage bright nickel plating or decorative chrome plating as used as a finish on guns. There's a big difference between these platings and hard chrome. The solvent can infiltrate under the bright nickel or "bumper chrome" plating through scratches, cracks, or thin spots and cause the plating to start to flake off. Also note that we're hearing a lot about "chrome moly" rifle barrels in advertising While this isn't strictly false advertising, it is often being used as a means of fooling the buyer into thinking he's getting a chrome LINED barrel. All chrome moly is is a form of steel that's been used to make rifle barrels since the 1940's at least. It has no chrome lining, and is actually just a quite ordinary bare steel barrel. "Chrome Moly barrel" is today's "Tactical" or "National Match". Last edited by Dfariswheel; December 15, 2009 at 10:21 PM.

December 16, 2009, 01:13 AM	#13
Ivan Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Posts: 141	Hello Hunter10Pt. The home made bore cleaner is also known as Ed's Red (C.E. "Ed" Harris). You need to be a bit more specific with your formulation but it basically works pretty well. I believe Anhydrous Lanolin can also be added and I did that to my batches. I have probably used several quarts of the stuff over the years. It works well, but does nothing for copper fouling. For Copper fouling, I generally use Sweets 7.62. For other fouling, I tend to use JB Bore Paste. Both products work pretty much as advertised. There may be better products, but these two work well enough that I am not really looking for others. - Ivan.

December 16, 2009, 03:30 PM	#14
brickeyee Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Posts: 3,351	"Actually, common epoxy resins are crosslinked thermosets and won't dissolve in anything but oxidizing acids." Dissolve is not really the correct term, the epoxy is simply broken down by MEK. I use it regularly to remove the dip epoxy on electronic components and to remove potting epoxy. We had one lab technician who did not watch carefully when removing potting from a DC-DC power supply and even the FR4 board epoxy was removed. Nothing but copper traces and fiberglass left.

December 21, 2009, 09:28 PM	#15
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	GG--Post #5 As far as the "copper penny" test goes, you have discovered which products remove corrosion from copper. This does not necessarily tell us anything about which products remove copper. Similarly, when you tested the Kroil on a penny, you miss the point. The Kroil gets underneath the copper and lifts it--this is a mechanical action. Do not confuse this with dissolving the copper, which is a chemical action. Either one may be effective, but the way they go about it is different.