EMF/Pedersoli Sharps Business 45-70 question

JacqueEagonSr · August 22, 2011, 02:45 PM

I recently took advantage (I hope) of buying my first Sharps style rifle at a very good price. The gentleman selling the rifle said he didn't like it because it shot 'high and to the right'. A quick examination told me why. The front sight was way too far to the left. The rear sight was way too far the the right and the elevation of the rear barrel mounted sight was set to the highest possible setting. After I got it home and was adjusting the sights I noticed that the metal in the front sight groove was white (not blued). Then, I noticed that the front of the barrel was also white. A quick measurement told me that the barrel had been shortened from 32" to 29". The seller (via a phone call) said he had inherited the rifle when his father died last year and he had no idea why his dad had the barrel shortened. I have not had, and will not have, a chance to fire the rifle for a several weeks. I know that some Sharps rifles have barrels as short as 22". Other than using the 'fastest' of the recommended smokeless powders, I can't conceive of any reason for the shortened barrel to cause a problem.
Your comments and opinions will be appreciated by this newbie.

Jim Watson · August 22, 2011, 02:49 PM

Comment and opinion:

The old short barrel = fast powder myth arises again. It fails on two points here.
It just isn't so, barrel length is not a strong factor in powder selection.
and
A 29" barrel is not short by any standard other than Kentucky rifle style.

Any standard handbook load will be a place to start. Pedersoli says their .45-70s are proof tested for use with the top SAAMI load of 28,000 psi.

NoSecondBest · August 22, 2011, 03:46 PM

If the barrel was cut properly (by a competent gunsmith) you won't have any problems at all. The reason these guns have barrels this long it to copy what was used in the late 1800's. With modern powders the barrels are much longer than actually needed. Even with black powder, a 29" barrel is plenty long enough. Pedersoli makes a quality product and they shoot very well. I've had a few already and they shoot better than my old eyes can allow. It's pretty easy to get two inch groups out of them and a good set of eyes and the right load will get you an inch. Good luck with the gun.

JacqueEagonSr · August 26, 2011, 01:56 PM

Many thanks for your replies which seem to agree with what I suspected.
I guess my next challenge is to figure out which bullet stabilizes best the the slow 1-in-18" twist and a 29" barrel. Any suggestions or threads to point me to?

NoSecondBest · August 26, 2011, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Many thanks for your replies which seem to agree with what I suspected.
I guess my next challenge is to figure out which bullet stabilizes best the the slow 1-in-18" twist and a 29" barrel. Any suggestions or threads to point me to?

1 in 18 is not a slow twist rate for this gun. Some older Sharps had twist rates around 1 in 30 I believe. This is actually a fast twist for this caliber. I was out shooting today trying different bullets and powders in my Pedersoli Sharps and the best grouping I got was with the Montana Bullet 405 grain lead bullet. I've tried several other manufacturers but this has been the best so far by a wide margine. Best powders (in my gun) have been 5744, 3031, and believe it or not, Trail Boss. I got two, five shot groups today at 1.5" with 13.0 grains of Trail Boss and one sub 2.0" five shot group with 25.5g of 5744 and a repeat with 28.0g of 5744. I don't promote these loads, I found them on the internet and they are supposed to be well below the pressure level of the gun. I know the Trail Boss is, it doesn't even recoil with this load. It sure is fun to shoot!

JacqueEagonSr · August 26, 2011, 02:38 PM

Another light load suggestion came from a friend who works at SW Ammo - a reloading supply store in Mesquite Texas. I don't recall the bullet weight (will have to ask next time I see him). But, he claimed to be shooting with 15 grains of Unique out of a lever action (again, I'll have to ask which model) with a 16" barrel. He claimed he was able to lob the bullets out to a metal target at 300 yards once he had walked the hits up to the target. 74 shots and his shoulder was only a little sore the next day. I'll have to see if that amount of Unique will push a bullet all the way thru a 29" barrel before I try a second shot!

Jim Watson · August 26, 2011, 03:03 PM

The US Army found an 18" twist .45-70 to be adequate for a 500 grain roundnose at black powder velocities. It kicks, though. You will have more fun with the early 405 grain bullet or even the .45-55-405 carbine ballistics.

You really must be careful with light loads of fast burning powder like Unique.
You could lose a double or even triple charge down in that big case and not like the results.
Trail Boss is bulkier and not much risk of a double charge but is still a fast burning powder and will not give you very high velocity. IMR shows 1007 fps with a MAXIMUM load at MAXIMUM pressure by SAAMI specs.

Before I discovered the advantages of black, I did a little shooting with 4759 and 5744, powders made for reduced rifle loads. They did ok but nothing special. Other than that, I can't help much with smokeless loads, I shoot black.

JacqueEagonSr · August 27, 2011, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the warning on Unique. But, I always use a Hornady Powder Cop on a progressive reloader. The same technique works when hand loading rifle cartridges using a common nail with a large head. Place the nail in a properly charged case and mark the nail at the top edge of the case with a permanent marker. Then, place the nail in each loaded case. An over or under load will show up quickly and is more accurate than eyeballing it. To make sure the nail is clean, tap the side of the case when extracting the nail to knock off any clinging powder and visually inspect the nail head to assure cleanliness before proceeding to the next case.

Powderman · August 27, 2011, 10:59 PM

Ah, but you'll be missing out if you don't try black powder--at least once!!

Yes, BP cartridges can be a pain to load--but there's just something about that BOOM and the cloud of smoke.

Buffalo Arms Company sells any and everything you'll need to cast your own, lube them up, paper patch if desired and run that smokepole like it should be!

Try some good Goex 1F or Swiss 1 1/2 Fg powder. Remember, you MUST leave NO airspace in the case with black powder--a little compression is actually a good thing.

Billy Shears · August 29, 2011, 02:14 PM

If you're not shooting black powder...Missouri Bullets 405s are a really good and affordable go-to bullet for just about any 45-70 smokeless loads.

For fun on the range without a purple shoulder just fill the case with Trail Boss.

Maxem0815 · August 30, 2011, 05:28 AM

I have been shooting my 45-70 for about 30 years and went through all sorts of powder loads. I have found that 24 gr of 2400 and a 350gr bullet is very accurate in my guns bit of a heavy recoil in a 1895 Marlin but very light recoil in my rolling block replica.
For the best accuracy in my original 45/70, 43 Egyptian and 43 Spanish rolling blocks as well as my 577-450 Martini I use 65 gr. of 1 Fg black powder, no kick with excellent accuracy.
Mace

JacqueEagonSr · October 31, 2011, 10:00 AM

Well, I got to fire the rifle during my Sept. visit to see my son in Colorado. Used 'factory' ammo made by SW Ammo in Mesquite TX and just shot few rounds into a bern about 100 yards away with the iron sites just to make sure it would fire. It does. I have since had Pedersoli rear tang vernier sites and front barrel sites with inserts installed. Now, I'm trying to figure out which load(s) will be right for my applications. It appears that gas checks will let me shoot a hotter load with minimal leading of the barrel and I have never used gas checks before. I tried searching this site for gas checks and the search searches for both 'gas' and 'checks'; not combined as 'gas checks', even when enclosed by quotes. So, can anyone point me to a thread, an article or just comment on how to install gas checks, equiptment needed, bullet forms, etc. Or, tell me how to search for a phrase.

August 22, 2011, 02:45 PM	#1
JacqueEagonSr Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Dallas, conveniently located near Texas Posts: 10	EMF/Pedersoli Sharps Business 45-70 question I recently took advantage (I hope) of buying my first Sharps style rifle at a very good price. The gentleman selling the rifle said he didn't like it because it shot 'high and to the right'. A quick examination told me why. The front sight was way too far to the left. The rear sight was way too far the the right and the elevation of the rear barrel mounted sight was set to the highest possible setting. After I got it home and was adjusting the sights I noticed that the metal in the front sight groove was white (not blued). Then, I noticed that the front of the barrel was also white. A quick measurement told me that the barrel had been shortened from 32" to 29". The seller (via a phone call) said he had inherited the rifle when his father died last year and he had no idea why his dad had the barrel shortened. I have not had, and will not have, a chance to fire the rifle for a several weeks. I know that some Sharps rifles have barrels as short as 22". Other than using the 'fastest' of the recommended smokeless powders, I can't conceive of any reason for the shortened barrel to cause a problem. Your comments and opinions will be appreciated by this newbie.

August 26, 2011, 01:56 PM	#4
JacqueEagonSr Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Dallas, conveniently located near Texas Posts: 10	Many thanks for your replies which seem to agree with what I suspected. I guess my next challenge is to figure out which bullet stabilizes best the the slow 1-in-18" twist and a 29" barrel. Any suggestions or threads to point me to? __________________ If you know how many guns you own, you don't own enough . . .

August 26, 2011, 02:38 PM	#6
JacqueEagonSr Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Dallas, conveniently located near Texas Posts: 10	Another light load suggestion came from a friend who works at SW Ammo - a reloading supply store in Mesquite Texas. I don't recall the bullet weight (will have to ask next time I see him). But, he claimed to be shooting with 15 grains of Unique out of a lever action (again, I'll have to ask which model) with a 16" barrel. He claimed he was able to lob the bullets out to a metal target at 300 yards once he had walked the hits up to the target. 74 shots and his shoulder was only a little sore the next day. I'll have to see if that amount of Unique will push a bullet all the way thru a 29" barrel before I try a second shot! __________________ If you know how many guns you own, you don't own enough . . .

August 26, 2011, 03:03 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	The US Army found an 18" twist .45-70 to be adequate for a 500 grain roundnose at black powder velocities. It kicks, though. You will have more fun with the early 405 grain bullet or even the .45-55-405 carbine ballistics. You really must be careful with light loads of fast burning powder like Unique. You could lose a double or even triple charge down in that big case and not like the results. Trail Boss is bulkier and not much risk of a double charge but is still a fast burning powder and will not give you very high velocity. IMR shows 1007 fps with a MAXIMUM load at MAXIMUM pressure by SAAMI specs. Before I discovered the advantages of black, I did a little shooting with 4759 and 5744, powders made for reduced rifle loads. They did ok but nothing special. Other than that, I can't help much with smokeless loads, I shoot black. Last edited by Jim Watson; August 26, 2011 at 03:10 PM.

August 27, 2011, 10:41 PM	#8
JacqueEagonSr Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Dallas, conveniently located near Texas Posts: 10	Thanks for the warning on Unique. But, I always use a Hornady Powder Cop on a progressive reloader. The same technique works when hand loading rifle cartridges using a common nail with a large head. Place the nail in a properly charged case and mark the nail at the top edge of the case with a permanent marker. Then, place the nail in each loaded case. An over or under load will show up quickly and is more accurate than eyeballing it. To make sure the nail is clean, tap the side of the case when extracting the nail to knock off any clinging powder and visually inspect the nail head to assure cleanliness before proceeding to the next case. __________________ If you know how many guns you own, you don't own enough . . . Last edited by JacqueEagonSr; August 30, 2011 at 08:36 AM. Reason: enhanced description of marking the nail to check powder

August 22, 2011, 02:49 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Comment and opinion: The old short barrel = fast powder myth arises again. It fails on two points here. It just isn't so, barrel length is not a strong factor in powder selection. and A 29" barrel is not short by any standard other than Kentucky rifle style. Any standard handbook load will be a place to start. Pedersoli says their .45-70s are proof tested for use with the top SAAMI load of 28,000 psi.

August 22, 2011, 03:46 PM	#3
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	If the barrel was cut properly (by a competent gunsmith) you won't have any problems at all. The reason these guns have barrels this long it to copy what was used in the late 1800's. With modern powders the barrels are much longer than actually needed. Even with black powder, a 29" barrel is plenty long enough. Pedersoli makes a quality product and they shoot very well. I've had a few already and they shoot better than my old eyes can allow. It's pretty easy to get two inch groups out of them and a good set of eyes and the right load will get you an inch. Good luck with the gun.

August 27, 2011, 10:59 PM	#9
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Ah, but you'll be missing out if you don't try black powder--at least once!! Yes, BP cartridges can be a pain to load--but there's just something about that BOOM and the cloud of smoke. Buffalo Arms Company sells any and everything you'll need to cast your own, lube them up, paper patch if desired and run that smokepole like it should be! Try some good Goex 1F or Swiss 1 1/2 Fg powder. Remember, you MUST leave NO airspace in the case with black powder--a little compression is actually a good thing. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

August 29, 2011, 02:14 PM	#10
Billy Shears Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2011 Posts: 606	If you're not shooting black powder...Missouri Bullets 405s are a really good and affordable go-to bullet for just about any 45-70 smokeless loads. For fun on the range without a purple shoulder just fill the case with Trail Boss.

August 30, 2011, 05:28 AM	#11
Maxem0815 Junior member Join Date: May 23, 2011 Posts: 216	I have been shooting my 45-70 for about 30 years and went through all sorts of powder loads. I have found that 24 gr of 2400 and a 350gr bullet is very accurate in my guns bit of a heavy recoil in a 1895 Marlin but very light recoil in my rolling block replica. For the best accuracy in my original 45/70, 43 Egyptian and 43 Spanish rolling blocks as well as my 577-450 Martini I use 65 gr. of 1 Fg black powder, no kick with excellent accuracy. Mace

October 31, 2011, 10:00 AM	#12
JacqueEagonSr Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2011 Location: Dallas, conveniently located near Texas Posts: 10	Well, I got to fire the rifle during my Sept. visit to see my son in Colorado. Used 'factory' ammo made by SW Ammo in Mesquite TX and just shot few rounds into a bern about 100 yards away with the iron sites just to make sure it would fire. It does. I have since had Pedersoli rear tang vernier sites and front barrel sites with inserts installed. Now, I'm trying to figure out which load(s) will be right for my applications. It appears that gas checks will let me shoot a hotter load with minimal leading of the barrel and I have never used gas checks before. I tried searching this site for gas checks and the search searches for both 'gas' and 'checks'; not combined as 'gas checks', even when enclosed by quotes. So, can anyone point me to a thread, an article or just comment on how to install gas checks, equiptment needed, bullet forms, etc. Or, tell me how to search for a phrase. __________________ If you know how many guns you own, you don't own enough . . .