freak muzzleloader loading accident - Page 2

Gbro · March 12, 2009, 08:10 PM

Sorry to hear about your accident.
Not many of us that shoot muzzle stuffer's haven't had body parts in the way.
I have sent you a P.M.

ElectricHellfire · March 12, 2009, 08:54 PM

Wow. Sorry to hear about your injury. Not really sure about what happened as the only black power rifle I own is a Hawken and not an in-line. Never seen anything like that happen personally although I've heard of them.

jrinne0430 · March 13, 2009, 09:10 AM

Wow

that is scary and sorry to hear about your injuries. The incident you described is one of my greatest fears when muzzle loading. I always blow the barrel out between shots and it takes me about 1 min+/- before I am ready to load the next (I am very slow with filling the powder measure). No telling what caused your to fire.

ilbob · March 13, 2009, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Seems like a long time for a hot amber to be in there. Two friends of mine were getting done hunting they were putting there guns in the cases when one went off hitting the other hunter. The gun was not capped. They figure some sort of static set it off. The one that got hit sued the gun maker, and won.

I am trying to figure out just how static electricity could build up inside the steel barrel of a firearm?

Even if the charge was actually on the person doing the relaoding, if he/she was touching the barrel there would be no place for the static to discharge to.

I vote for the ember theory, even though it sounds crazy that it could still exist after all that time.

Pahoo · March 13, 2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

I always blow the barrel out between shots

Basic safe gun handling rule #1 and perhaps the most important one, is to:
"Never point the muzzle of a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy".

Rather that blowing down the muzzle,
"Pump the Ramrod". Open you bolt or cock the hammer and insert your rod and pump it about four times or until you don't see anymore smoke out of your vent. Please keep some of your favorite boby parts out of the way!!!

Be Safe !!!

Lavid2002 · March 13, 2009, 10:17 AM

*big breath in......*.........! *gasp*......Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures
:P Do it!

jrinne0430 · March 13, 2009, 10:22 AM

I guess I should have been more specific. I use the CO2 device (sold by Cabela's) as my blowing method between shots.

vranasaurus · March 13, 2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Why? You screwed up. Man up and admit it and quit looking to blame someone else.

How exactly did he screw up?

If there is a flaw in the product that can cause this malfunction the manufacturer should certainly be sued. I am not saying there is but it should certainly be looked into.

Pahoo · March 13, 2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

I use the CO2 device (sold by Cabela's) as my blowing method between shots.

Good option to blowing down the barrel, EH ??? .....

Be Safe !!!

crazybuck · March 13, 2009, 11:13 AM

It seems strange that the pellets didn't ignite when they hit the breech plug before seating the bullet. Thank God it wasn't any worse than that, even though it was bad.

Bryce · March 13, 2009, 07:58 PM

Well I am glad you are both alive. I think JuicyHog may have understated the severity of his injuries, as i was there to witness it first hand. I also witnessed his heroic march 3/4 of a mile back to the truck, with his blown up arm hanging at his side.
I shoot muzzle loaders. I have never cared for the inlines. I have rammed charges home with no cool down, time and time again.
You can say "be carful". You can give advice. You can say "they screwed up!"
I say their number was up. All of us grubby soot covered shooters, should be thankful, that it wasnt our own number that was up.

adam0bomb · March 15, 2009, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Same thing happened to me with a knight wolverine muzzle loader using 209 primers. I shot the gun, put the safeties on, and pried off the used primer. I reloaded after a couple minutes and when I rammed the ball home the gun went off. I am lucky to be alive and the doctors were able to fix my hand, wrist and arm which were foolishly in the line of fire.

Thank you for your post juicyhog! Glad to see so many people positively responding and offering so many good safety tips and suggestions!!

I’m interested to see if anyone else out there has heard or experienced an accident like these.

Ben Towe · March 15, 2009, 01:46 AM

Sorry to hear about the accident, hope you regain use of everything.

A note about blackpowder and pellets:

Blackpowder is classed as an explosive and not a propellant like smokeless powder (Pyrodex, etc.). Blackpowder is somewhat unstable and can be set off with pressure (so can smokeless, but it's less likely). Pyrodex pellets have a coating of blackpowder on the base to help with ignition. My theory is that in the act of ramming the ball home perhaps the pressure ignited the black powder coating. While I've never heard of this it is theoretically possible. Of course static electricity or an ember could be the culprit. I would be interested to know the difference in ADs such as this between shooters using real blackpowder and smokeless substitutes, though figures would no doubt be difficult to gather. My $0.02...

TheKlawMan · June 23, 2009, 03:22 PM

Adam: If you have not done so, I strongly suggest you get an attorney; preferably one with products liability experience. I do not know anything about the law of your state, but individual states that law suits be filed within so much time of an injury. For exmple, one web site from an Indiana attorney says it is 2 years for a personal injury case, but to verify the period of limitations of actions with an attorney.

There are also rules specifying the tolling of the period, which I won't get into but even if one's period seems to have expired it may have time left should one or more of the tolling rules apply to their situration.

Depending on your states laws, there may be no such thing as a "freak accident" if this is classified as what is called an "ultrahazardous" product. If it is and if you were using the product in the manner for which it was intended, and it sounds as if you were doing just that, you may have a very strong case. In some states, and I don't know the law of your state, a manufacturer is held "strictly liable" regardless of negligence, for injury to a consumer as long as the product is being used as intended.

I don't know about the manufacturer of your gun, as you modified it and had it since you were 10, but an attorney from your state can advise you on that. I am focusing on the 209 conversion kit and possible more than its manufacturer.

Once again, depending on the law of your state, anyone involved with the "stream of commerce" of the kit may be liable. The manufacturer, the importer, distributor, and retailer. I assume you installed it yourself according to its instructions.

You may find this article helpful. even if your case has nothing to do with CVA. I suspect its author may be able to refer you to an attorney with expertise in black powder cases. http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

I hope your recovery is going well. Please find an attorney as you should not rely on anyting I have written as it may not apply to the laws of your state. In fact, if the conversion kit was purchased in antother state or hour injury occured there, your state's laws may not even govern. Get an attorney.

Zilmo · June 23, 2009, 03:39 PM

Why is everyone in such a damned hurry to get lawyers involved? Seems like lawyers are the main reason we have things like the stupid locks on S&W's and other things. Screw the lawyers.

Dood_22 · June 23, 2009, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Adam: If you have not done so, I strongly suggest you get an attorney; preferably one with products liability experience. I do not know anything about the law of your state, but individual states that law suits be filed within so much time of an injury.

Oh goody! Get another fine product taken off the market over nothing more than speculation. And cost another fine American company money just defending itself.

Suing over BS like this only causes everyone to pay in the end. The loss of useful products, the loss of domestic companies, the loss of jobs and the increase in the cost of everything. After legal fees, the only winner is the lawyers.

TheKlawMan · June 23, 2009, 04:50 PM

Adam, who no one has been able to fault. He had just purchased the primer concversion kit and had waited 5 minutes before reloading or the manufacturer of the kit. Adam is lucky to be alive, but can he work and provide for his family.

Who should bear the burden of the spreading the risk of injuries; the consumer or the manufacturer who hopefully tests their equipment and is able to pass the cost of insurance on to consumers.

And just who do you think is going to go to bat for injured consumers, the manufacturer's lawyers. Sure they can have lawyers up the kazoo, but if an injured party hires one it's "BS". Ask someone who has been around where woking people would be if it wasn't for the lawyers that took on big business.

Brian Pfleuger · June 23, 2009, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Suing over BS like this only causes everyone to pay in the end. The loss of useful products, the loss of domestic companies, the loss of jobs and the increase in the cost of everything. After legal fees, the only winner is the lawyers.

Very much correct, sir. Except you left out one of the winners.... this thread. It just got brought back to life after 3 months in the grave!

adam0bomb · June 23, 2009, 06:27 PM

I agree with everyone...Yes it sucks that a gun i have had since i was 10 went off like it did while i was loading it.I loved that gun and think knight has good products but this conversion kit is what i believe caused the accident.I started this thread to see what others thoughts were on this accident and also to find others who have had the same accidents.I have found 2 others with identical accidents and both were with the same style ignition system.Also all 3 of our accidents involved using pyrodex pellets and round balls.I do have an attorney right now and he has been very persistent and very helpful to me and my case.

TheKlawMan · June 23, 2009, 07:44 PM

I am glad you found an attorney. He or she would probably want you to say no more, as what you do say could find its way back to the manufacturer of the 209 kit.

Dood_22 · June 23, 2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Very much correct, sir. Except you left out one of the winners.... this thread. It just got brought back to life after 3 months in the grave!

I'm sure Klawman is a lawyer.

Quote:

And just who do you think is going to go to bat for injured consumers, the manufacturer's lawyers. Sure they can have lawyers up the kazoo, but if an injured party hires one it's "BS". Ask someone who has been around where woking people would be if it wasn't for the lawyers that took on big business.

Who should go to bat for the consumer? The Consumer, of course. Buddy, if you aren't taking care of yourself, (in this case by having insurance of your own) there isn't anybody else that will.

I love how you lawyers call any business "big business" as some sort of slur to make a cheap play on envy. But the reality is that most businesses are not big businesses by any stretch of the imagination. Most businesses are barely making it. How many 209 conversions do you think a company has to sell just to cover 1 hour of a lawyer's time?

I guess anyone who wants a 209 conversion had better go out and get one now, because by the time the vultures get finished there won't be a company left making them.

TheKlawMan · June 23, 2009, 10:51 PM

Where did I say the maker of the conversion kit was big business? I simply pointed out that you folk should consider where you would be if lawyers didn't take on big business.

Yeah. I used to be a lawyer and my practice was devoted to defending mucipal entities, corporations, and individuals at the request of their insurance companies. Later I specialized in representing consumers against the like.

So your answer is let the injured consumer buy insurance; not the company profiting from selling the product. Assume that many persons injured are working people who can barely afford the necessities of life, and many can't even afford health insurance, how are they to afford disability insurance.

This assumes that neither the consumer nor the manufacturer had any fault for negligence.

And what in the heck makes you think this is an American company and even if it is it isn't manufacturing in Mexico or China?

Zilmo · June 23, 2009, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Yeah. I used to be a lawyer

Huh. I wouldn't have guessed.

Dood_22 · June 24, 2009, 09:39 AM

You avoid a very pertinent question. Here, I'll even help you with the math.

Knight 209 Conversion

Call it $50. We can easily assume that the retailer marks up 100%. but let's not. Let's be more "conservative". So, let's say Knight sold it for $40. A profitable company is doing well when they make 10% after everything is said and done. That would be $4 profit on these things after Knight pays their employees, suppliers, rent and taxes, etc.

A corporate lawyer goes for $200/hr minimum. So that means Knight's has to sell 50 of the conversions simply to pay for a lawyer to write a letter. What if this goes to court? Or even settles? I can see an easy 10 hours in that. So now Knight's has to sell 500 of those things. This isn't even considering any payments to the plaintiff or the plaintiff lawyer's fees.

Just how big do you think the market is for 209 conversions? Give me some numbers.

My guess would be that they *might* sell 500 of those in a whole damn year. Even if Knight has insurance that pays, what do you imagine the insurance company is going to do to their rates?

This isn't difficult math figuring out why lawsuits are a major contributor to the decline of American manufacturing.

johnwilliamson062 · June 24, 2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

This isn't difficult math figuring out why lawsuits are a major contributor to the decline of American manufacturing.

More like everything. Maybe the lawyers are just the result of most of America being babyies though.

This is a common problem w/ BP guns. If you didn't look into BP enough to know that, you were negligent in the accident. Knight should not be responsible for something totally unrelated to their specific design. This could happen in ANY BP gun. Bringing suit for this would be like getting in a motorcycle accident and suing the manufacturer for not installing a sufficient crumple zone.

1.Use plastic Sabots
2. DO NOT PUT YOUR BODY IN FRONT OF THE GUN(rule #4). If possible hold the ram rod on the edges and RAM it down into the bullet, multiple times is not unusual.

March 12, 2009, 08:10 PM	#26
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	Sorry to hear about your accident. Not many of us that shoot muzzle stuffer's haven't had body parts in the way. I have sent you a P.M. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

March 12, 2009, 08:54 PM	#27
ElectricHellfire Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: The Woodlands, Texas Posts: 2,271	Wow. Sorry to hear about your injury. Not really sure about what happened as the only black power rifle I own is a Hawken and not an in-line. Never seen anything like that happen personally although I've heard of them. __________________ *Texas, the only State to Have Ever Kicked Another Country's Butt*

March 13, 2009, 10:17 AM	#31
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	big breath in...............! gasp......Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures Pictures :P Do it! __________________ Math>Grammar

March 15, 2009, 01:46 AM	#38
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	Sorry to hear about the accident, hope you regain use of everything. A note about blackpowder and pellets: Blackpowder is classed as an explosive and not a propellant like smokeless powder (Pyrodex, etc.). Blackpowder is somewhat unstable and can be set off with pressure (so can smokeless, but it's less likely). Pyrodex pellets have a coating of blackpowder on the base to help with ignition. My theory is that in the act of ramming the ball home perhaps the pressure ignited the black powder coating. While I've never heard of this it is theoretically possible. Of course static electricity or an ember could be the culprit. I would be interested to know the difference in ADs such as this between shooters using real blackpowder and smokeless substitutes, though figures would no doubt be difficult to gather. My $0.02... __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

June 23, 2009, 03:22 PM	#39
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	AdamObomb Adam: If you have not done so, I strongly suggest you get an attorney; preferably one with products liability experience. I do not know anything about the law of your state, but individual states that law suits be filed within so much time of an injury. For exmple, one web site from an Indiana attorney says it is 2 years for a personal injury case, but to verify the period of limitations of actions with an attorney. There are also rules specifying the tolling of the period, which I won't get into but even if one's period seems to have expired it may have time left should one or more of the tolling rules apply to their situration. Depending on your states laws, there may be no such thing as a "freak accident" if this is classified as what is called an "ultrahazardous" product. If it is and if you were using the product in the manner for which it was intended, and it sounds as if you were doing just that, you may have a very strong case. In some states, and I don't know the law of your state, a manufacturer is held "strictly liable" regardless of negligence, for injury to a consumer as long as the product is being used as intended. I don't know about the manufacturer of your gun, as you modified it and had it since you were 10, but an attorney from your state can advise you on that. I am focusing on the 209 conversion kit and possible more than its manufacturer. Once again, depending on the law of your state, anyone involved with the "stream of commerce" of the kit may be liable. The manufacturer, the importer, distributor, and retailer. I assume you installed it yourself according to its instructions. You may find this article helpful. even if your case has nothing to do with CVA. I suspect its author may be able to refer you to an attorney with expertise in black powder cases. http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm I hope your recovery is going well. Please find an attorney as you should not rely on anyting I have written as it may not apply to the laws of your state. In fact, if the conversion kit was purchased in antother state or hour injury occured there, your state's laws may not even govern. Get an attorney. Last edited by TheKlawMan; June 23, 2009 at 03:25 PM. Reason: Left out bit about strict liability

March 13, 2009, 09:10 AM	#28
jrinne0430 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 298	Wow that is scary and sorry to hear about your injuries. The incident you described is one of my greatest fears when muzzle loading. I always blow the barrel out between shots and it takes me about 1 min+/- before I am ready to load the next (I am very slow with filling the powder measure). No telling what caused your to fire.

March 13, 2009, 10:22 AM	#32
jrinne0430 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 298	I guess I should have been more specific. I use the CO2 device (sold by Cabela's) as my blowing method between shots.

March 13, 2009, 11:13 AM	#35
crazybuck Junior Member Join Date: January 31, 2009 Posts: 10	It seems strange that the pellets didn't ignite when they hit the breech plug before seating the bullet. Thank God it wasn't any worse than that, even though it was bad.

March 13, 2009, 07:58 PM	#36
Bryce Junior Member Join Date: March 13, 2009 Posts: 1	Well I am glad you are both alive. I think JuicyHog may have understated the severity of his injuries, as i was there to witness it first hand. I also witnessed his heroic march 3/4 of a mile back to the truck, with his blown up arm hanging at his side. I shoot muzzle loaders. I have never cared for the inlines. I have rammed charges home with no cool down, time and time again. You can say "be carful". You can give advice. You can say "they screwed up!" I say their number was up. All of us grubby soot covered shooters, should be thankful, that it wasnt our own number that was up.

June 23, 2009, 03:39 PM	#40
Zilmo Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2009 Location: At home. Posts: 369	Why is everyone in such a damned hurry to get lawyers involved? Seems like lawyers are the main reason we have things like the stupid locks on S&W's and other things. Screw the lawyers.

June 23, 2009, 04:50 PM	#42
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Who is best held responsible? Adam, who no one has been able to fault. He had just purchased the primer concversion kit and had waited 5 minutes before reloading or the manufacturer of the kit. Adam is lucky to be alive, but can he work and provide for his family. Who should bear the burden of the spreading the risk of injuries; the consumer or the manufacturer who hopefully tests their equipment and is able to pass the cost of insurance on to consumers. And just who do you think is going to go to bat for injured consumers, the manufacturer's lawyers. Sure they can have lawyers up the kazoo, but if an injured party hires one it's "BS". Ask someone who has been around where woking people would be if it wasn't for the lawyers that took on big business.

June 23, 2009, 06:27 PM	#44
adam0bomb Junior Member Join Date: February 21, 2009 Location: Elkhart indiana Posts: 9	I agree with everyone...Yes it sucks that a gun i have had since i was 10 went off like it did while i was loading it.I loved that gun and think knight has good products but this conversion kit is what i believe caused the accident.I started this thread to see what others thoughts were on this accident and also to find others who have had the same accidents.I have found 2 others with identical accidents and both were with the same style ignition system.Also all 3 of our accidents involved using pyrodex pellets and round balls.I do have an attorney right now and he has been very persistent and very helpful to me and my case.

June 23, 2009, 07:44 PM	#45
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Good for U I am glad you found an attorney. He or she would probably want you to say no more, as what you do say could find its way back to the manufacturer of the 209 kit.

June 23, 2009, 10:51 PM	#47
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Dood Where did I say the maker of the conversion kit was big business? I simply pointed out that you folk should consider where you would be if lawyers didn't take on big business. Yeah. I used to be a lawyer and my practice was devoted to defending mucipal entities, corporations, and individuals at the request of their insurance companies. Later I specialized in representing consumers against the like. So your answer is let the injured consumer buy insurance; not the company profiting from selling the product. Assume that many persons injured are working people who can barely afford the necessities of life, and many can't even afford health insurance, how are they to afford disability insurance. This assumes that neither the consumer nor the manufacturer had any fault for negligence. And what in the heck makes you think this is an American company and even if it is it isn't manufacturing in Mexico or China?

June 24, 2009, 09:39 AM	#49
Dood_22 Junior member Join Date: February 20, 2009 Posts: 120	You avoid a very pertinent question. Here, I'll even help you with the math. Knight 209 Conversion Call it $50. We can easily assume that the retailer marks up 100%. but let's not. Let's be more "conservative". So, let's say Knight sold it for $40. A profitable company is doing well when they make 10% after everything is said and done. That would be $4 profit on these things after Knight pays their employees, suppliers, rent and taxes, etc. A corporate lawyer goes for $200/hr minimum. So that means Knight's has to sell 50 of the conversions simply to pay for a lawyer to write a letter. What if this goes to court? Or even settles? I can see an easy 10 hours in that. So now Knight's has to sell 500 of those things. This isn't even considering any payments to the plaintiff or the plaintiff lawyer's fees. Just how big do you think the market is for 209 conversions? Give me some numbers. My guess would be that they might sell 500 of those in a whole damn year. Even if Knight has insurance that pays, what do you imagine the insurance company is going to do to their rates? This isn't difficult math figuring out why lawsuits are a major contributor to the decline of American manufacturing.