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Old July 30, 2005, 10:07 AM   #51
USP45usp
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I noticed (or I missed it) that everyone is saying that the 7.62x25 round is "Tok" which is used in the CZ, the TT as well as the Mauser.

The original CZ-52 was built around the 7.62x25 round that was used in machine guns. You can ONLY fire this rifle round in the CZ and not the TT or the Mauser as the TT and Mauser WILL kaboom.

You can fire the Tok 7.62x25 in the CZ but the action is slow and the slide may or may not cycle at all times.

When buying ammo for the CZ, you will have to ask for the machine gun rounds and they can get expensive. The Tok and Mauser rounds will be listed on the box as Tokarev.

So, we're actually talking about two different types of rounds as a single type of round.

As for self defense, sure, if you like to carry around a boat anchor. If you use the CZ with the original machine gun rounds that it was built around I would worry about over penetration (big time!).

It is SA only (IIRC, I don't have mine here so I can check), the decocker works, sometimes (if you buy one from surplus, test out the decocker SAFELY!. Some work, some don't). It's slow to reload (the mag catch is on the bottom of the mag well), you have to pull the slide back and then let go to charge it (no slide release. You can buy them but then your decocker becomes another trigger). And did I mention that it's heavy? VERY heavy!

It's a fun gun. If you are hiking in the woods with big game (cats, yotes, bears maybe) then it's a good gun to carry (outside in a flap holster) but isn't/wasn't designed for concealed carry.

Wayne
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Old July 30, 2005, 10:09 AM   #52
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Mike
You're right. But even Russians ceased to produce them in 50s.
It's a matter of taste, as nearly all handgun discussions.
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Old July 30, 2005, 08:06 PM   #53
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The 7.62x25 is basically a hotrodded 7.63 Mauser. It must not have been too poor a performer because it was popular from 1896 through WWII. Also the 7.62x25 has been known to cause death from peripheral hits (arms and legs) because its high velocity causes a disproportionate wound and profuse bleeding much like (though not to the degree of) our current 5.56x45 NATO. In laymens terms this means the darned thing goes so fast that it practically tears your arm off and you die of blood loss. I believe that the 7.62x25 would be an excellent stopper were the time and energy put into it to develop sophisticated hollowpoints such as those in use with more popular calibers. Finally, consider that the Russian military considered re-adopting the round but decided to use a light, fast 9mm that basically copied its balistics so that they could use their potential allies' or enemies' ammunition in a SHTF schenario
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Old July 30, 2005, 10:28 PM   #54
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Also the 7.62x25 has been known to cause death from peripheral hits (arms and legs) because its high velocity causes a disproportionate wound and profuse bleeding much like (though not to the degree of) our current 5.56x45 NATO. In laymens terms this means the darned thing goes so fast that it practically tears your arm off and you die of blood loss.
The cranks out an 85grain bullet in the 1500-1600fps range even with the very hot ammunition. Compare that the .30 Carbine round which shoots a 110gr bullet at over 1700fps and yet is considered to be quite anemic by many. Certainly not a round that would tear someone's arm off or kill someone with peripheral hits. The 7.62x25 works ok if you hit bone. The bone splinters make secondary projectiles. Otherwise it makes a .30 caliber hole in and out. It's not generally considered to be a premier self-defense round.

I do sometimes use a 7.62x25 pistol for a self-defense gun, but for reasons that have to do with aspects of the caliber/gun combination other than terminal ballistics.
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Old July 30, 2005, 11:12 PM   #55
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"The original CZ-52 was built around the 7.62x25 round that was used in machine guns. You can ONLY fire this rifle round in the CZ and not the TT or the Mauser as the TT and Mauser WILL kaboom."

Uhm....

Not quite.

The 7.62x25 was not a rifle round.

The Czechs started out with the same Tokarev round that the Soviets used during WW II. They apparently hotrodded the round for use in their submachine guns and later developed the CZ-52 to take the hotter ammo. You're correct that it should not be used in the Tokarev and especially not the Mauser C96.

The Soviets never loaded different power levels of this round.


The Tokarev round is a slight variant of the Mauser round, and the two can, in a pinch, be used interchangably as the powerlevels are virtually identical. Some years ago I saw a guy at the range firing his C96 with surplus Soviet ammo.

The CZ-52 WILL, with its roller locked action, fire standard Soviet 7.62x25 ammo. I've done it quite a few times. If you have the more potent ammo, thats fine. If you don't, that's fine, too.



Webley,

With all due respect, you're buying into "conventional hype" about this round. It's no wonder round.

As for bone splinters, small, lightweight, rapidly moving bullets like those from the 7.62 don't produce a lot of bone splinters to do peripheral damage.

The round developed its reputation mainly not from single-hit spectacular kills, but from multiple hits on a target. The Soviet submachine guns that fired this round (PPsH, PPD, and one other) all had very high rates of fire (900 to 1100 rpm) and little recoil and muzzle rise. This helped the Soviet (or Chinese) soldier get multiple hits on the target.

And, given that entire Soviet divisions were armed with submachine guns, the amount of short range firepower that they could put out was just staggering.

Even so, German experience against the Soviets, and American experience against the Chinese in Korea, found that the round really lacked the ability to do a lot of damage to the target.

"Finally, consider that the Russian military considered re-adopting the round but decided to use a light, fast 9mm that basically copied its balistics so that they could use their potential allies' or enemies' ammunition in a SHTF schenario"

Are you talking about the 9mm Makarov round? If so, it is significantly less powerful than the 7.62x25.
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Old July 30, 2005, 11:15 PM   #56
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Alex,

Yep, the Soviets stopped producing the Tokarev in the 1950s.

Just as the American military stopped producing the 1911 after WW II.

In both nations, though, the old designs soldiered on for many years, in America as the first-line handgun, and in the Soviet Union as the second-line handgun. The Tokarev was still in service in the Soviet Union with reserve troops until at least the 1970s.

It was also a staple Soviet military aid product for many years.
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Old July 31, 2005, 12:43 AM   #57
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As for bone splinters, small, lightweight, rapidly moving bullets like those from the 7.62 don't produce a lot of bone splinters to do peripheral damage.
I was quoting something I read based on actual use of the .30 Mauser (a similar but less powerful pistol round) in WWI. Logic tells me your comment isn't far from the truth, but the field experience is hard to completely discount.
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Old July 31, 2005, 12:52 AM   #58
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The splinters that are created have a higher velocity, which makes up for the fact that there aren't as many of them (and that they're not as large).

But, generally, the splinter effect caused by small, lightweight bullets isn't that great.
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Old July 31, 2005, 03:45 PM   #59
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I read somewhere that Serbs are producing this TT gun even now, but in 10mm
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Old August 1, 2005, 08:10 PM   #60
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JohnKSa, The 30 carbine is considered aniemic by rifle standards. Any handgun round is aniemic by rifle standards. a 9mm fires a 115-147grn bullet typically at lower velocities. If we compare apples to apples the standard defence and military load is a 125grn bullet at 1100-1300fps thats about 400fps slower than your 30 carbine balistics and I don't think 15grn of weight is going to make up for it. Now, other than those who believe that no handgun caliber is useful unless it begins with four (I'm sorry but statistic show otherwise) the 9mm is a quite good combat round. The 30 carbine has obviously superior ballistics to this, it just makes for an underpowered rifle when compared to a 30-06 which sends a 150grn bullet at 2700fps. And no, I'm not talking about the 9mm Makarov, the Russians have a prototype pistol in 9x19mm luger/parabellum/NATO/etc. The only reason they have not completely replaced the PM in 9X18 is economic restrictions (i.e. they can't afford to yet.) Also, almost every pistol caliber known to man has at some time failed to do enough damage to stop an attacker. There are stories of goblins absorbing six .357 Magnums and running away, This is because ALL handguns are either a weapon of last resort,a means to fight one's way to a real gun (rifle or shotgun), or used because a real gun is impractical given the situation.
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Old August 1, 2005, 09:01 PM   #61
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Mike,

I stand corrected, I should have said machine gun round, not rifle.

As far as using it for SD, there are better options out there .

Wayne
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Old August 1, 2005, 10:23 PM   #62
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Webley,

Read some of my posts--I'm FAR, FAR from a disciple of the "bigger is better crowd." Besides that, if you note, I admitted that I actually carry a 7.62x25 gun from time to time. It has disadvantages and advantages just like any other handgun/caliber combination.

I'm not knocking the 7.62x25--it's a pretty hot pistol round as far as velocity goes. My comparison to the .30 Carbine wasn't to show that the 7.62x25 is useless, just to show that it's quite a bit weaker than the .30 carbine which has NEVER been known as a caliber that would tear someone's arm off or cause death from peripheral hits.

It'll work ok, but due to a lack of well-designed self-defense ammunition for the caliber, I would hesitate to recommend it over some of the more common handgun rounds on the market today.
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Old August 2, 2005, 09:34 AM   #63
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for SD?

YOu dern right. It'll stop the perp and the other ten people behind him. Mine penetrated a steel spinner I made which was 4 plies thick of 16 guage steel. I wouldn't use it for SD unless the only places you go are large uninhabited fields.
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Old August 2, 2005, 09:56 AM   #64
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JohnKsa +1 the Tok is weaker than an M1 carbine, which has similar bullet construction, you don't hear about EITHER one tearing off limbs or causing massive injuries. I will wait until I see tests in calibrated ballistic gelatin with softpoints or hollowpoints before I go out and buy one as a home defense weapon. Actually scratch that, I probably never will, because I've seen the damn thing firing and it looks, feels and sounds like someone is firing a naval deckgun. I'm scared of it!

I just don't see this as ever becoming a popular defense cartridge with so many other excellent choices out there, unless this is the only cartridge you're accurate with for some obscure reason, and the guns chambered in it are the only ones you can afford, there are better choices.
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Old August 2, 2005, 03:00 PM   #65
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This will never become a popular cartridge, period. The round will die when the supply of surplus guns chambered for it dies. Its long OAL means that the gun companies, who don't want to build guns with larger than 9mm magwells (45 GAP) aren't going to be able to offer it.
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Old August 2, 2005, 04:34 PM   #66
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JohnSKa, I did not mean to imply that you are a "bigger is better guy" that was simply a pre-emptive retort to flames from all the ".45 or nothing" guys who believe the 9mm is useless I apologize that you took it the wrong way. As far as the 7.62x25 being a poor choice due to lack of hollowpoint selection I agree, I also apologize that I did not make this more clear. I do, however, stand by my claim that the 30 carbine is not underpowered for a pistol round most of the failures reported about the 30 carbine come from the Korean War where our soldiers tried to use them at extended ranges (100-150 yards) that are usually engaged with a rifle. It makes a fine pistol but a very poor rifle. As to tearing arms off, that was a bit of an exaggeration meant to get my point across (I didn't think y'all would take it that literally ) however the round does cause disproportionate wounds in peripheral hits (non-torso) when compared to other pistol rounds. BTW, I do have some wicked little rounds that I picked up at a gun show though, 90grn Hornady XTP in a 7.62x25 case loaded like subgun ammo
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Old August 2, 2005, 05:03 PM   #67
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however the round does cause disproportionate wounds in peripheral hits (non-torso) when compared to other pistol rounds
How about some hard documentation for this?
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Old August 2, 2005, 07:01 PM   #68
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Ballistic tests
http://www.kineticpulse.us/math/kp.html
I have been unable to relocate my original source so I can't yet provide you with documented shootings. I believe it was a gun writer named Towsend commenting on the performance of the round on the eastern front during WWII. But based upon this study it appears that light, fast bullets create shallower, wider wound channels and heavy, slower bullets create deeper, narrower ones. Since an arm or leg is a relatively thin target, most any FMJ round will pedetrate it comletely, therefore the depth of the wound is negligable, however the width is very significant. So it follows that the bigger the wound the more blood loss will occur. i.e disproportionate wounds and profuse blood loss in peripheral hits. My point is not that the 7.62x25 should be carried with hardball or that peripheral hits will cause immediate incapacitation. Greater casualties caused by a more lethal (though not as time effective) 7.62x25 round make it desireable for a military because it puts greater strain on ones enemy seeing as how the subject recieves medical care before death (wasted resources). My point in all of this is that the round has a lot of untapped potential.
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Old August 2, 2005, 09:15 PM   #69
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Halfbaked at best... Sorry
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Old August 2, 2005, 09:48 PM   #70
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At the gun store where I worked someone put together a little board with 5 sheets of Lexan bolted together but still moveable. They shot various loads against them.
The .45acp 230 gr hardball penetrated the first sheet and stopped. The same round in hydroshock failed to penetrate the first sheet (as designed, btw).
The 9mm +P+ Winchester Ranger penetrated all 5 sheets.
The 7.62 Tokarev easily went through them.

I carry a CZ 52 in my car. If I need to shoot through a car door or windshield (unlikely, granted) I am confident the round will perform. The gun shoots well and accurately and has never hung up or failed to perform. It is a lot of fun to shoot as well with a big fireball in some loads.
I remember someone made a HP round that was rated at over 2200fps.
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Old August 2, 2005, 10:28 PM   #71
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Halfbaked at best... Sorry
You're too nice. My reaction was "snake oil."
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Old August 2, 2005, 11:08 PM   #72
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Old August 3, 2005, 06:18 PM   #73
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I am making my claim as to peripheral hits based upon a letter written to either Gun World Magazine or Guns and Ammo (I know it was one of those two because Jan Libourel responded) a few years ago. The person wished to know why no one made a compact pistol chambered for 7.62x25 and also said that it could be a very good performer. Libourel responded by saying that no one disputed the round's effectiveness and cited either Townsend Whelen or Charles Askins (It's been a while and I don't remember which) commenting on the round performing as I have mentioned but that the main reason was due to the dimensions of the round itself not lending to a compact design. I no longer have the issue and have been unable to find the article on the internet, if someone else cares to try be my guest. What possible motivation could I have to make this up? I don't sell guns so there's no money in it for me and I don't regularly carry my CZ-52 so it's not for my peace of mind either. BTW Rabbi, the 2200 fps stuff is probably MagSafe.
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Old August 3, 2005, 06:28 PM   #74
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Nobody's suggesting you're making it up. You were referenced to an undocumented supposition from a dubious source (Libourel) is the popular press (gunrag). Deceitful--no. Gullible--maybe.
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Old August 3, 2005, 06:41 PM   #75
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Maybe it is not the term of this post, but I want to Know: How would you compare the 7.62X25 with the .32 H&R Magnum and the .32-20 cartridges?.
Wouldn´t be this two .32 calibers better for defense than the 7.62X25?.

Anibal.
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