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Old July 14, 2007, 09:54 PM   #1
nobius
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.308 Reloading Mixture Disparity in Manuals

I have been reloading for my .308 with Varget powder for about 2 lbs worth. After many different load, primer, bullet, and case combinations, with notes kept on all, I decided to switch to Reloader 15 to see if I could get better groups and improved long range results.

Here is where my problem comes in.

The Lee reloading manual lists the following loads:

165 Grain Bullet Min load - 36.5 Max Load - 45.5
168 Grain Bullet Min load - 34.6 Max Load - 42.8

The Speer Manual Lists these loads:

165 Grain Bullet Min load - 43.0 Max Load - 47.0
168 Grain Bullet Min load - 41.0 Max Load - 45.0

I am looking for input from those who have actually used this powder with these weight bullets. What load have you used with sucess? Do you shoot both weights? Any idea why these manuals have such different loads listed?
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Old July 14, 2007, 10:13 PM   #2
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You are assuming that the loading data is an absolute- it is not. The results from pressure testing is subject to the test equipment, the man running the equipment,the altitude of the test location, the temperature, humidity, chamber dimensions for that particular action/barrel, etc. And then add the legal variable that each data is subject to and there is no absolute to the data in any of the books. The data is for a particular action/barrel, on a specific day, a specific time run by a specific individual. You, as a sporting reloader, assume the responsiblity to recognize any signs of excessive or dangerous pressure for your particular weapon. My custom 6.5x 06 has a tight chamber. I can't get close to max loads per any published data without major signs of pressure. It's my responsiblility to recognize that. I would suggest starting 10% below the lowest max load and work up if you are looking for the fastest bullet speeds. Usually, best accuracy is somewhere around 80% of max. Expecting the data to be a constant from publisher to publisher isn't going to happen unless they are copying each other.
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Old July 14, 2007, 10:18 PM   #3
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I shoot 40 grains of RL15 in my 308, but I use 185 scenars loaded to 2.80 exactly..

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Old July 14, 2007, 10:29 PM   #4
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When in doubt I check the powder mfg web site.

http://www.alliantpowder.com/
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Old July 14, 2007, 10:30 PM   #5
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I got the same in my Lee book.
I switched to IMR 4064. Huge improvement. 42.0 feels compressed. But, just tap the case to settle the powder. About 1" @ 200 yds.
Tried Varget, h-322, h-335...
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Old July 15, 2007, 12:34 PM   #6
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Thats the thing about reloading, No matter how many data sources you reference, there will always be discrepencies so none of it should be taken as an absolute, just a guide.

If you read all the fine print showing all the componants you'll find the differences. Different primers, brass, bullets used, some were tested in pressure barrels. Even if you have all the exact brands of componants that they used, you could still get different results because of the different lots of manufacture. Bottom line is...you need a chronograph.

Having no chrony you should keep meticulous records of your loads and a single fired cartrige from each load fired from starting load on up (to be able to watch for primer signs and measure casehead expansion), and a target from each to watch accuracy increase or decrease.

You're pretty darn safe with published starting loads. The really frustrating part (with no chrony) is making loads that just seem to do better with every increase in powder charge. The recoil tells you that you're up there but do I add .2 more and see if it goes to a one holer, or stop now and be satisfied & safe?

IMR-4064 is currently giving me the best results with 165/168's. I started with 41.5 gr's and then found on the net that 42.5 is some kind of standard match load for the olympic competition guys. It just works.

Having a chrony tells you so much that I dunno how I ever loaded without one. Pick your target velocity, start with the starting load, and see what you get. You may find that you reach your target velocity with less powder than what the book said. Understand that if your velocity is up higher than book, the pressure is also* (I'm no engineer and this may or may not be absolute, but makes sense to me).

I have some 7.62's loaded up with RX-15 but haven't shot them yet to see.
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Old July 15, 2007, 01:32 PM   #7
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As said earlier, if you examine every particular, usually you will find mechanical differences in these loads. Often Hornady's manual has shorter COLs specified than the SAMMI max, and that increases pressure with a given load. In the .308, in particular, the Winchester brand cases have significantly more powder capacity (about 8%) than standard military and many other case brands. This is because Winchester now makes a semi-balloon head case design they originally developed for the '92 Palma match. Old Winchester brass won't match it, either.

You also can't always depend on manufacturer data. I've had some back and forth with a technician at Alliant on their listing for 230 grain jacketed bullets, which they developed with Hornady's FP ENC bullet and have given a much shorter seating depth to. I find their recommended 5.0 grain Bullseye load exceeds +P pressures when seated to their specified COL. A real potential hazard in unsupported standard 1911 barrels. So, bad data can get out there. The best policy is to check at least 3 load data sources, and use the lowest starting pressure listed by any of the three. Work your loads up watching for any kind of pressure sign. Don't put faith in any one sign alone, unless you own pressure test gear to back it up.
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Old July 16, 2007, 09:51 AM   #8
nobius
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Thanks for the input

After taking some of it, and adding a little Carolina Windage, I came up with the following loads:

165 Grain bullets - 44.0 grains Re15
168 Grain bullets - 42.0 grains Re15

No signs of over or under pressure and both loads shot well under an inch from a rest at 100 yds.

I will hopefully be testing them at further distances soon, but for now that is all I can do.
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Old July 16, 2007, 02:16 PM   #9
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Yup and it is not just .308
Same thing for all of the cartridges I have researched.
The more manuals you have, the more variations you will see.
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Old July 16, 2007, 11:43 PM   #10
OKEE
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This is my best 308 load and it is a minium load to all the books but this is where I got the best accuracy with my Savage 12 bvss
IMR 4895 and 168 sierra's matchkings.
10 shot group @100 yds. .5
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Old July 17, 2007, 01:01 AM   #11
Dave R
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After comparing a lot of loads, it's my experience that Speer runs a little "hot" in their manual, compared to others. Another example, in Speer No. 13 the START load from some .380acp loads is higher than the MAX load in Hodgdon's manual (I believe?)
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Old July 18, 2007, 02:24 AM   #12
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Not only that but, pressures will vary with the "grip" of the case neck on the bullet and the drag of the bullet in the barrel. This all has to do with the bearing surface of the bullet and composition of the jacket (if any) used.

I always try to get at least two opinions about a load and tend to give the most weight to that of the bullet maker.
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Old October 18, 2007, 03:56 PM   #13
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308 loads

308 cal load
44 gr Varget Speer 65 gr spbt try it you'll like it!!!

The entry is 90 days old and the person may not be interested any longer,...However, if you are this is a great round for my gun - Remington 700 w/ a 5-R hvy mil spec barrel a real shooter.

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Old October 18, 2007, 04:03 PM   #14
Sensei10
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308 loads

308 cal load
44 gr Varget Speer 165 gr spbt try it you'll like it!!!

The entry is 90 days old and the person may not be interested any longer,...However, if you are this is a great round for my gun - Remington 700 w/ a 5-R hvy mil spec barrel a real shooter.

Sensei 10
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Old October 20, 2007, 06:20 PM   #15
Leeman
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Load Data

Who knows best about their product?
Who has the most at risk if the data is incorrect and you damage your gun and/or you are injured?
I would be very suspicious of load data supplied by anyone other the powder maker or sole distributer. Therefore use the load data supplied by the one who assumes responsibility for it's use. In this case Hodgdon.

Lee took no chances when they published their manual. Check page seven of their current catolog about Modern Reloading.
It says:
"Over 26,000 loads in a new format, with velocities for starting loads. This is the best kind of load data-IT IS SUPPLIED BY THE POWDER COMPANIES."
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Old October 21, 2007, 12:56 PM   #16
rrp
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308 round

Try 43 grn of varget behind the 168 grn Hornady match hp. My Rem loves them. Only have to look at 1/2 inch of the target to find all the holes if I do my job right.
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