Reduced load for .458 -- safe?

Hueco · May 31, 2000, 05:28 PM

I found a very nice looking reduced load for my 458. It was in the MEC manual that came with our shotshell reloader. It called for 35 grains of 2400 powder, 300 grain HP, and a Winchester 8 1/2-120 primer.

I loaded one with 35 grains of 2400, a 300 grain Barnes-X, and a Winchester LMR primer.

The powder did not fill up the case all the way. It only filled it about half way. After seating the bullet, I could hear the powder inside as I gently shook it.

Is this load safe to shoot, or will it cause detonation (Secondary Explosion?) problems? Is the primer I used alright? I coudl find no 8 1/2-120 at the shop...only LMR, LR, SR. I am a little nervous about shooting this load....

Hueco

HankL · May 31, 2000, 06:28 PM

Hueco, My friend, you went to the trouble of purchasing your rig, got into reloading and now you want to shoot reduced loads!
Detonation is pretty much a urban legend but from what I have read has happened. Every time that you change a component you need to be aware that the performance of the reload might change. I wouldn't use a shotgun manual for any suggestions for a 458 Win mag IMHO.

Paul B. · May 31, 2000, 06:51 PM

Hueco. The only thing that bothers me is the Barnes X bullet. The max load for a 292 gr. cast bullet is 33.0 gr. 2400, and that is a lot softer than a solid copper bullet. I'm not sure that a magnum primer is necessary here either.
2400 is a fast burning powder that can generate pressures rapidly. Another point. That solid copper bullet could get stuck somewhere down your barrel due to the fact that it is much harder than conventional bullets.
Don't pay any attention to people who flame you because you want to shoot lighter loads. It's a darn good way to learn how to handle your #1. It's not like shooting a rifle with a magazine.
I shoot a lot of lighter cast bullet loads, and I used to have data for the .458 laying around here someplace. I haven't seen it since we moved here to Arizona, but I'm sure I can find you some safe data for practice loads. E-mail me if you are interested.
Paul B.

Hueco · May 31, 2000, 07:24 PM

Paul, thanks for replying! The cast load you were referring to is not the one I was looking at. There is a specified 300 grain. They just all it a "Hornady 300HP" bullet. The lead bullet is referred to as "Cast (GC) 385L" and it uses 30.0 grains of 2400. There is one more load listed that can be called reduced. A Hornady 500 FMJ with 35.0 grains of 2400. The load I am after (the 300 grainer) I know for sure uses a jacketed bullet. I really want a load I can shoot a lot and really get great with this rifle. With the heavy loads, I am afraid I will develop a flinch, and I just can't shoot enough to get practiced well.

HankL, it isn't a shotgun reloading manual.

It came withthe shotgun press. It's Alliant's manual.

Thanks for the help guys...as always!

Hueco

Hueco · June 5, 2000, 10:56 AM

Going to the range today, just wondering if I should shoot this load, or find another.

Hueco

Cheapo · June 6, 2000, 01:33 AM

First rule: Never enter the overpressure zone. As validly pointed out, the solid copper slug *may* require a lower *max* load than a conventional lead & copper bullet would. Have you tried contacting Barnes? They have a web site...I saw it somewhere... Very frequently, the max for a solid copper will be about midway up the scale for a conventional bullet.

Going downward from First Rule is Rule Two: get enough pressure to reliably seal the case in the chamber. That brass is really a combined super-high-pressure gasket and powder/bullet carrying device. Gas blowback from inadequate sealing can range from just a cosmetic problem (your cases get sooty on the outside) to downright dangerous to eyes and head!

Rule Three, well stated before: Get enough trailing leg on the pressure curve to avoid stuck bullets. Even in a .458, that much 2400 *appears* (yes, this is a mere educated guess you are free to ignore) to be more than enough to avoid stuck bullets mid-bore.

The "detonation" problem has arisen, to my knowledge, only with really FAST powders like Unique and Bullseye in loadings that take up something like a mere 10 percent of the available powder volume. Your load fails to qualify on both counts.

I'd shoot 'em over a chronograph and inspect every case and the bore after EVERY shot. Cease and desist if anything gets fishy.

Sport45 · June 6, 2000, 07:59 AM

The little research I've done on the subject indicates that this secondary explosion effect (detonation) occurs sometimes with low charges of the SLOWER powders. I have used 2.6 grains of W231 behind a 250 grain cast bullet in a .375 winchester with good results. 700X is supposed to be less position sensitive and I've used it also. I don't use fillers as I've read that you chance "ringing" the chamber with them. A couple of sites to look at are: http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm and http://www.recguns.com/VIIE7.html hope this helps...

------------------
"An unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Cesare Beccaria, the father of modern criminology

Paul B. · June 6, 2000, 01:55 PM

Sport45. I agree with your comments on detonation with slow burning powders. I think that the problems with detonation with fast powders is amissed double charge from not inspecting the charged cases before seating the bullets.
As for fillers? I have had no problems using dacron (1 gr.) or Cream of Wheat. The latter in a 45-70. I once used .410 shotgun cardboard wads (over powder wad) in a marlin 95 (new model) and ringed the barrel twice, before I noticed what happened. The funny part about it, it it is more accurate now with the rings, than before. Go figure.
I believe that a tuft of dacron will burn up on firing. I have never found any residue on the ground in front of the firing line. I would never use Cream of Wheat in a bottlenecked case, but in a straight walled case like the 45-70, I have had no problems.
Do I recommend usig Cream of Wheat? No. Those that wish to experiment, do so at their own risk. I only say it has worked for me, in my rifles.
Paul B.

Kynoch · June 8, 2000, 12:31 PM

Hueco,

Modern Reloading by Richard Lee shows the Hercules loading for 300 grain jacketed at 35 grains. Just purchased some 2400 this weekend and plan to work up this loading for plinking with my Ruger #1-H. Let us know how you fared at the range with yours.

Hueco · June 8, 2000, 04:20 PM

I'll let you all know, hopefully I will be out there tomorrow morning booming away.

Kynoch, what kind of groups have you gotten so far with various loads?

Hueco

Kynoch · June 9, 2000, 08:02 AM

Hueco,

I'm still in the process of picking up dies and reloading supplies for the 458, so I'm afraid I can't offer any ballistic wisdom yet. Will be glad to share as it becomes available.

By the way, I checked the Alliant site and they list the 35 grain loading as well.

Kynoch

May 31, 2000, 05:28 PM	#1
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	I found a very nice looking reduced load for my 458. It was in the MEC manual that came with our shotshell reloader. It called for 35 grains of 2400 powder, 300 grain HP, and a Winchester 8 1/2-120 primer. I loaded one with 35 grains of 2400, a 300 grain Barnes-X, and a Winchester LMR primer. The powder did not fill up the case all the way. It only filled it about half way. After seating the bullet, I could hear the powder inside as I gently shook it. Is this load safe to shoot, or will it cause detonation (Secondary Explosion?) problems? Is the primer I used alright? I coudl find no 8 1/2-120 at the shop...only LMR, LR, SR. I am a little nervous about shooting this load.... Hueco

May 31, 2000, 06:28 PM	#2
HankL Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 1999 Location: The Sunny South Posts: 2,174	Hueco, My friend, you went to the trouble of purchasing your rig, got into reloading and now you want to shoot reduced loads! Detonation is pretty much a urban legend but from what I have read has happened. Every time that you change a component you need to be aware that the performance of the reload might change. I wouldn't use a shotgun manual for any suggestions for a 458 Win mag IMHO.

May 31, 2000, 06:51 PM	#3
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Hueco. The only thing that bothers me is the Barnes X bullet. The max load for a 292 gr. cast bullet is 33.0 gr. 2400, and that is a lot softer than a solid copper bullet. I'm not sure that a magnum primer is necessary here either. 2400 is a fast burning powder that can generate pressures rapidly. Another point. That solid copper bullet could get stuck somewhere down your barrel due to the fact that it is much harder than conventional bullets. Don't pay any attention to people who flame you because you want to shoot lighter loads. It's a darn good way to learn how to handle your #1. It's not like shooting a rifle with a magazine. I shoot a lot of lighter cast bullet loads, and I used to have data for the .458 laying around here someplace. I haven't seen it since we moved here to Arizona, but I'm sure I can find you some safe data for practice loads. E-mail me if you are interested. Paul B.

May 31, 2000, 07:24 PM	#4
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	Paul, thanks for replying! The cast load you were referring to is not the one I was looking at. There is a specified 300 grain. They just all it a "Hornady 300HP" bullet. The lead bullet is referred to as "Cast (GC) 385L" and it uses 30.0 grains of 2400. There is one more load listed that can be called reduced. A Hornady 500 FMJ with 35.0 grains of 2400. The load I am after (the 300 grainer) I know for sure uses a jacketed bullet. I really want a load I can shoot a lot and really get great with this rifle. With the heavy loads, I am afraid I will develop a flinch, and I just can't shoot enough to get practiced well. HankL, it isn't a shotgun reloading manual. It came withthe shotgun press. It's Alliant's manual. Thanks for the help guys...as always! Hueco

June 5, 2000, 10:56 AM	#5
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	Going to the range today, just wondering if I should shoot this load, or find another. Hueco

June 6, 2000, 01:33 AM	#6
Cheapo Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 1998 Posts: 986	First rule: Never enter the overpressure zone. As validly pointed out, the solid copper slug may require a lower max load than a conventional lead & copper bullet would. Have you tried contacting Barnes? They have a web site...I saw it somewhere... Very frequently, the max for a solid copper will be about midway up the scale for a conventional bullet. Going downward from First Rule is Rule Two: get enough pressure to reliably seal the case in the chamber. That brass is really a combined super-high-pressure gasket and powder/bullet carrying device. Gas blowback from inadequate sealing can range from just a cosmetic problem (your cases get sooty on the outside) to downright dangerous to eyes and head! Rule Three, well stated before: Get enough trailing leg on the pressure curve to avoid stuck bullets. Even in a .458, that much 2400 appears (yes, this is a mere educated guess you are free to ignore) to be more than enough to avoid stuck bullets mid-bore. The "detonation" problem has arisen, to my knowledge, only with really FAST powders like Unique and Bullseye in loadings that take up something like a mere 10 percent of the available powder volume. Your load fails to qualify on both counts. I'd shoot 'em over a chronograph and inspect every case and the bore after EVERY shot. Cease and desist if anything gets fishy.

June 6, 2000, 07:59 AM	#7
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The little research I've done on the subject indicates that this secondary explosion effect (detonation) occurs sometimes with low charges of the SLOWER powders. I have used 2.6 grains of W231 behind a 250 grain cast bullet in a .375 winchester with good results. 700X is supposed to be less position sensitive and I've used it also. I don't use fillers as I've read that you chance "ringing" the chamber with them. A couple of sites to look at are: http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm and http://www.recguns.com/VIIE7.html hope this helps... ------------------ "An unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." Cesare Beccaria, the father of modern criminology

June 6, 2000, 01:55 PM	#8
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,802	Sport45. I agree with your comments on detonation with slow burning powders. I think that the problems with detonation with fast powders is amissed double charge from not inspecting the charged cases before seating the bullets. As for fillers? I have had no problems using dacron (1 gr.) or Cream of Wheat. The latter in a 45-70. I once used .410 shotgun cardboard wads (over powder wad) in a marlin 95 (new model) and ringed the barrel twice, before I noticed what happened. The funny part about it, it it is more accurate now with the rings, than before. Go figure. I believe that a tuft of dacron will burn up on firing. I have never found any residue on the ground in front of the firing line. I would never use Cream of Wheat in a bottlenecked case, but in a straight walled case like the 45-70, I have had no problems. Do I recommend usig Cream of Wheat? No. Those that wish to experiment, do so at their own risk. I only say it has worked for me, in my rifles. Paul B.

June 8, 2000, 12:31 PM	#9
Kynoch Junior Member Join Date: June 6, 2000 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 7	Hueco, Modern Reloading by Richard Lee shows the Hercules loading for 300 grain jacketed at 35 grains. Just purchased some 2400 this weekend and plan to work up this loading for plinking with my Ruger #1-H. Let us know how you fared at the range with yours.

June 8, 2000, 04:20 PM	#10
Hueco Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 1999 Posts: 561	I'll let you all know, hopefully I will be out there tomorrow morning booming away. Kynoch, what kind of groups have you gotten so far with various loads? Hueco

June 9, 2000, 08:02 AM	#11
Kynoch Junior Member Join Date: June 6, 2000 Location: Tampa, Fl Posts: 7	Hueco, I'm still in the process of picking up dies and reloading supplies for the 458, so I'm afraid I can't offer any ballistic wisdom yet. Will be glad to share as it becomes available. By the way, I checked the Alliant site and they list the 35 grain loading as well. Kynoch