|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
September 9, 2009, 02:45 PM | #26 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
There is a huge difference between the two. Typically a hold for mental health evaluation requires some largely unambiguous signs or symptoms, therein lies the problem. You keep referring to a "serious communicable disease" yet you fail to see how difficult it would be to come up with a subset of symptoms that could be relied upon to determine if the person does have some exotic disease, versus the most widely spread set of viruses known to man: The common "cold". What exact symptoms would have to be present for someone to be "quarantined" ? or compelled to submit to treatment? How many "communicable diseases" share symptoms with otherwise benign ailments? Consider your answer carefully, because what you suggest could have you quarantined, or forced to take a treatment for a specific disease, when you merely have a hay fever flare-up, or a simple "cold". Sorry, but the end does not justify the means, and I don't want "compulsory" health care any more than I want federalized health care, and I certainly do not want to run the risk of being institutionalized every time I sneeze.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; September 9, 2009 at 02:51 PM. |
|
September 9, 2009, 02:53 PM | #27 | |||
Junior member
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
|
Quote:
You also have officers witnessing the event in situ which gives them more than enough latitude to interdict in the home and stop the shooter. Warrants aren't necessary to halt the projection of lethal force from the distance of the remote home to the school... probably at least 75 yards. Quote:
"Deadly" disease? The lethality of disease is a function of many things, foremost of which are the cleanliness and health of the potential host to the disease. Diseases are very deadly to adult-onset diabetic obese people that live off of twinkies and the McDonalds menu. They tend to be merely an annoyance to people that eat their vegetables and wash their hands a couple times a day. Remember that the mortality rate of this disease is below 0.5% in western countries. Filthy, nasty India has a mortality rate for H1N1 at 2.5%. Quote:
H1N1 is a joke. A sick, twisted power-grabbing joke. I'm glad that you agree that it doesn't fall into the same category as a true pandemic like the Bubonic Plague (mortality rate from 50% to 90% when not treated with antibiotics). |
|||
September 9, 2009, 04:02 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
|
"a reenactment of the Spanish flu of 1918"
My grandfather had it. He told me it wasn't all that bad. Back then, pretty much anything would kill a lot of people because there wasn't a treatment for most common illnesses. Penicillin wasn't even discovered until 1930, much less commonly used. John |
September 9, 2009, 07:05 PM | #29 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 21, 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,424
|
At least the law hs this provision:
"An individual who is unable or unwilling to submit to vaccination or treatment shall not be 410 required to submit to such procedures but may be isolated or quarantined pursuant to section 96 411 of chapter 111 if his or her refusal poses a serious danger to public health or results in 412 uncertainty whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a disease or condition that 413 poses a serious danger to public health, as determined by the commissioner, or a local public 414 health authority operating within its jurisdiction." From what I've read of the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic, it seems to have had two waves. The first wave mild and the second wave deadly. As a previous poster mentioned many died not from the flu but from a secondary infection such as a pneumonia which can be treated today. The mortality rate of those actually infected ranged between 10% to 20% from all causes. If the mortality rate is cut by use of anti-viral medications for the primary infection and use of antibiotic treating secondary infections; the mortality rate should be well below 10% of those infected. In the 1918 pandemic about 1/3 of the population was infected. Extrapolating to a population of 350,000,000 in the U.S. that could mean more than 10,000,000 deaths.
__________________
NRA Life Member - Orange Gunsite Member - NRA Certified Pistol Instructor "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society,
they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." Frederic Bastiat |
September 9, 2009, 07:32 PM | #30 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,118
|
Sholling
Quote:
I'm really confused about how I supposedly implied this... For reference, here is my post in its entirety. You said: Quote:
I said: Quote:
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights. |
|||
September 9, 2009, 07:39 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 23, 2005
Posts: 3,248
|
Why Worry?
Why should anyone be worried about the Federal Government. There are many examples of things they have run with a high degree of success. When I think of one I'll post it.
Remember when Reagan asked what are the ten scariest words in the English language? I'm from the federal governemnt and I'm here to help. |
September 9, 2009, 09:17 PM | #32 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 18, 1999
Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California
Posts: 4,261
|
Quote:
BTW I don't for a minute believe that H1N1 is a major threat. On the other hand if someone like Iran were to release a true bio engineered killer plague I would want the government taking action NOW and stopping the spread of infection in its tracks. And I don't want them to wait 6 month after it happens while congress debates giving them the power.
__________________
Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society. |
|
September 9, 2009, 09:46 PM | #33 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2009
Location: Kodiak, Alaska
Posts: 2,118
|
Quote:
No I do not advocate killing someone that may or may not have a disease/virus that may or may not infect others. Since I nor you are the persons doctor, the level of their infection is not for us to know. An active shooter in a school is an immediate threat to the safety of everyone in the vicinity. Someone with a serious disease/virus can be treated, as can everyone they infect. We have some of the most advanced medical technicians in the world, I think we can come to a reasonable solution. Something to the effect of a vaccine, antibiotic, etc. to resolve it, I don't think we'll have to resort to fast-moving lead pills for our medical issues. Didn't think I'd ever have to clarify that particular issue, but oh well.
__________________
"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them." -Richard Henry Lee, Virginia delegate to the Continental Congress, initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights. |
|
September 10, 2009, 12:37 AM | #34 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 28, 2009
Posts: 399
|
I think all the handwringing and hyperbole should be toned down. There are already laws in place that allow for someone to be quarantined if it's suspected that they have a dangerous disease. That's no more an imposition on the person's constitutional rights than it is for you to be arrested if they think that you may be a serial killer.
And second, I don't worry about swine flu. Mostly because I remember the panic over bird flu. And before that, SARS. And before that, West Nile Virus. We've gotten really good at containing infectious diseases, and creating effective vaccines fast. A lot of the trumpeting of these things has to do with the media looking for a way to keep people watching, and various research agencies looking for a way to keep their funds flowing. |
September 10, 2009, 01:54 AM | #35 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 18, 1999
Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California
Posts: 4,261
|
Quote:
But let's look at what concerns me more. If Iran, and they have the technology, were to release a modern bio engineered and very deadly plague there would be no time to develop vaccines and you can count on it being antibiotic proof. If it achieved a 10% fatality rate that's 35,000,000 Americans. 3% is 10,000,000. Is it worth locking up the those infected first if it has a chance to stop the spread? Just for a couple of weeks until they are over it? This isn't a TEOTWAWKI scenario but a real possibility for terrorism because it's untraceable. Ok let's leave that one aside. A tourist returns from Africa. Within 24hrs of getting home his wife takes him to the family doctor who being from Africa suspects Ebola. Ebola is transmitted by touch, is roughly 90% fatal, and as a virus is immune to antibiotics. Do you send him home if he refuses hospitalization or forcefully isolate him? How about those he came in contact with? If infected they will be contagious within days. Do you let them go to work and little league games with their kids? Or do you isolate them for testing? Remember the spread isn't linear its logarithmic. My point is that this isn't 1930 when by the time someone with a disease could get here they would be displaying symptoms. In 2009 you can fly from Africa in a day and be home well before symptoms appear. Symptoms that previously would have stopped you could at customs. I don't want the government to be able to lock up someone with the flu but if someone is carrying an incurable disease with a high probability of fatality yes. But they should be allowed due process and a judge decide if they pose a threat just like a mental health hold. Set the bar very very high but it has to exist.
__________________
Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society. Last edited by sholling; September 10, 2009 at 02:00 AM. |
|
September 10, 2009, 05:16 AM | #36 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 1,310
|
Guys- this is a paranoid non-issue. As a paramedic, I already have the power which you are all putting on your tinfoil hats for. There are quite a few situations where I can detain you or take people into the hospital against their will, and that isn't just limited to suicidal ideations. I can use reasonable force, I can sedate them, I can tie them down. It is done routinely. Calm down, this is a non-issue.
__________________
Caveat Emperor |
September 10, 2009, 10:11 AM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
|
^^^ Strangely, i didn't find the "tie them down" part very comforting. (makes another note about thinking it over before calling 9-1-1)
|
September 10, 2009, 10:36 AM | #38 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
In TN. a patient has a right to refuse treatment under all but the narrowest of circumstances (IE: Suicidal, dementia, drug or alcohol abuse) and even then LE has to make the call, and bear the responsibilities. not to derail the thread, just curious as to what State already allows such latitude.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
September 10, 2009, 03:30 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 1,310
|
Actually, that is a common misconception. The law states (in every state) that you have the right to refuse care if (and only if) you are mentally competent to understand the refusal and the consequences that follow. There are many situations where a patient is not capable of an "informed refusal," these include:
1 Intoxication (drug or alcohol) 2 The patient is a minor (and no competent legal guardian or parent is available to give or refuse consent) 3 Head injuries 4 suicidal ideation 5 hypoglycemia 6 any other situation or condition which affects you ability to understand the medical ramifications of refusing care Generally, Law Enforcement only makes the decision in suicide cases. A patient who lacks capacity to make or understand health care decisions cannot give consent or refuse, and the courts (again in every state of which I am aware) not only allow, but require the paramedic to decide in favor of caring for the patient. This is referred to as "implied consent" and is put in place to protect the rights of the patient. This is an area of law that has long been debated and litigated. I have known many a medic to get in trouble for under treatment, but I have not yet met a medic who got in hot water for overtreatment. Example: You are involved in a fall. You are angry and combative that the ambulance was called, and wish to refuse treatment. The Paramedic who arrives determines that you have altered mental status due to alcohol, or a bump on the head, or some other mechanism, so under the law, he has the power to take you to the hospital, and may use reasonable force to do so. That can include chemical restraint, or even physical restraints. This is nothing to be paranoid about. It isn't as if medics run around looking for reasons to take you to the hospital. This is the law in Tennessee as well as everywhere else. Although centered around doctors, you can read a short article on the subject here. The same general principle applies to paramedics engaged in the prehospital setting.
__________________
Caveat Emperor Last edited by divemedic; September 10, 2009 at 03:47 PM. |
September 10, 2009, 03:36 PM | #40 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 25, 2009
Posts: 566
|
This whole thread is a rehash of the "government as my mommy" argument, just in a different area of control/choice (usually "mommy can i buy a gun?"). I don't need my mommy to tell me when to go to the doctor or get an immunization; i am a grown man. I certainly don't need a paramedic, a Congressman, or the President of the U.S. to tell me when to seek medical care (unless dear old Mom gets elected ).
Big Government < Limited Government, IMO. |
September 10, 2009, 04:24 PM | #41 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Not necessarily, and the paramedic has no "power" nor authority in the situation, any more than a physician has. In TN he may be placed in custody by LE and then transported against his will, but not on the "authority" of a paramedic. (who acts on authority of a physician) And even given the inclusive list you have provided, none of that has anything to do with someone who may or may not have a communicable disease (unless he is unconscious) in which case he likely will not be aware he has/is being transported. Otherwise, he has full right to refuse treatment.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; September 10, 2009 at 04:30 PM. |
|||
September 10, 2009, 05:04 PM | #42 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,860
|
so..who pays?
Quote:
So, say I fall down, go boom, bump my widdle head. Over protective nanny neighbor (girlfriend, whatever) call ambulance. Now, I have a bump on the head, have had them before, probably will again, and don't feel like spending $1,000 (after the insurance pays its part) to have somebody at the hospital tell me I have a bump on the head. Now, divemedic shows up, and because I am a cheap curmudegon, who doesn't want to go to the hospital, decides I am having "diminished mental capacity", tranks me, trusses me, and off to the hospital I go! Against my wishes! So, my question is, since you forced me to go to the hospital, are you going to pay the bill??? yes, I know sometimes you guys have to do these things for people's own good, but, why should I wind up stuck for thousands in bills, because of your opinion of what is in my best interest? And I am talking about those cases where there is nothing wrong with me, and we both know it. My point is, that when it comes to refusing treatment, we do not have the free will we think we do. You can make a purely BS call, and we get stuck with the consequences.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
|
September 10, 2009, 05:20 PM | #43 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
The LE around here will sometimes do this if they feel there may be a need for medical attention for someone with a diminished capacity, but the paramedic can only offer an "opinion", he has no authority to impose his own will in that situation...at least not in this State. And unless some sort of legislation is passed to allow for it, the same will apply to someone with a communicable disease.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
|
September 10, 2009, 05:25 PM | #44 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 1,310
|
Because there were cases where a paramedic took a refusal, and the patient later sued the paramedic and his employer for not recognizing the fact that the patient had a head injury and thus was incapable of comprehending the ramifications of refusing.
Sort of like the people who sue the bar for allowing them to get drunk. Like it or not, the law is what it is. If I document the medical reasons why I feel you are not capable, then there you go. If you would like to read the general guidelines, here they are. The point is that all of you are assuming that paramedics are out there just chucking people into the hospital willy-nilly. I get paid the same whether I take you in or not. This is not some power trip, but an honest treatment that favors the condition of my patient. This has exactly NOTHING to do with arrest, and everything to do with your inability to refuse. Sort of the same concept like: A woman with mental retardation cannot consent to sexual contact. Why? Because she does not understand what that consent means. Same thing here. This is not an arrest, but an attempt to get you the medical care that the law assumes you would want if you had the mental capacity to decide for yourself. Implied consent states that a person who is incapable of making a decision is assumed to consent. Altered mental states are under the same umbrella. Note that Tenn law (along with other states) says that a COMPETENT adult may refuse care. If the paramedic can document that in his best medical judgment you were not competent, he must assume that you would consent, and may use reasonable force to take you to the hospital. If his report in any way indicates that he knew r should have known that you were incompetent to refuse, and he allows you to refuse, he is guilty of abandonment and is open to liability. The law is what it is. Are there medics who will abuse it? Of course there are, but that does not erase the validity of the law for the rest of us. Just as you cannot blame one gun owner for the illegal and immoral actions of another, the same is true of medics. The leading symptom of serious head injury is altered mental status. Real life example: Just two days ago, there was a young man who slid a motorcycle under a car. No helmet. He had all of the skin avulsed on his hand all the way down to the bone. He had road rash all over his back, and blood was coming out of his right ear. He said he wasn't hurt, and did not want to go to the hospital. He asked me if he could call his wife. We helped him find his cell phone, and he called her. Then we tried to convince him to agree to be transported. He refused. He then asked if he could call his wife. WE let him call her again. We continued our evaluation, and he asked to call his wife. We told him that he already had- twice. He said he didn't remember doing that, and he wanted to go home. I then told him that in my opinion, he was not competent to refuse, and we put him on a backboard with a cervical collar, and he resisted, so we restrained him. He then asked us if he could call his wife. We flew him to the trauma center for a trauma evaluation. If he did not remember calling his wife, how could he possibly understand an important medical decision? Are you folks still insisting that paramedics should be permitted to accept refusals from such a patient? If you are, I have no problem with that, but you need to lobby your state legislature to change the law and make me immune from liability for doing so.
__________________
Caveat Emperor Last edited by divemedic; September 10, 2009 at 05:41 PM. |
September 10, 2009, 05:33 PM | #45 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2006
Location: Eastern, TN
Posts: 1,236
|
Quote:
I would be interested to see exactly what State statutes grant a paramedic (or a physician for that matter) the latitude you perceive you have. Quote:
Having had the flu several times, chicken pox, scarlet fever, etc. I was never in a state of "diminished capacity" such that I could not make a rational decision about my medical condition, and unless I somehow became unconscious, would have the right to refuse treatment. You continue to compare apples to oranges. speak to the issue.
__________________
WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; September 10, 2009 at 05:58 PM. |
||
September 10, 2009, 05:36 PM | #46 |
Staff
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,860
|
Didn't mean to come off like I was picking on you...
Or anyone in your profession. You have a tough job, and most of you guys (and gals) do it well.
But, those kinds of situations do happen. Fortunately, they are the minority, if not outright rare. But I had something vaguely similar happen to me. In my case, the fireman/emt made it very clear that I was coming with him, and no amount of refusal would do me any good. So, I went. 5 hrs later, the professionals decided what I knew all along, that there was nothing wrong with me (besides being an old, fat, lazy, and ugly curmudgeon). so, don't feel I am picking on you, I'm not. But I know the way the world works. and I was stuck with the bill. Because I "agreed" to go.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better. |
September 10, 2009, 05:43 PM | #47 |
Junior member
Join Date: July 14, 2008
Posts: 217
|
Bill allows cops warrantless entry, detention
I don't. It should make for an interesting day. |
September 10, 2009, 06:00 PM | #48 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 12, 2006
Posts: 1,310
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Caveat Emperor Last edited by divemedic; September 10, 2009 at 06:06 PM. |
||
September 11, 2009, 10:41 AM | #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 4, 2005
Posts: 2,017
|
Can we say.... Wag the Dog?
This isn't about someone with a history of suicidal dendencies or mental illness being restrained/detained for thier own safety. It's about authorizing a forced vaccination with an experimental substance for a virus that, by many accounts appears to have been genetically engineered, in response to a so-called pandemic where the claims aren't even close to matching the events in the first place. We live in a world where information travels faster than common sense. I read an article last may written by a doctor who was vacationing in Mexico with his family at the time of the supposed swine flu "explosion", right in one of the reported critical outbreak areas. He didn't even know anything was happening until he talked to his daughter here in the States, who in a panic filled him in on all the media claims puked out on every channel and station. Worried, he immediately went to the hospital with his creds as a doctor to inquire and offer his services in response to the "outbreak" only to find out even they--the hospital reported to have such a critical outbreak--had absolutely no idea what he was talking about. So how is it the US media had so much detailed information about the outbreak when the medical professionals IN that area had none? Seems a little fishy. So--if I fall off my ladder, crack my skull open, and an EMT insists I get to the hospital with me mumbling "I'm fine, I'm fine" while sitting in a couple pints of my own blood---take me and I'll thank you later. BUT, if you think you're going to kick in my door SWAT style towing body restraints and needles full of some fast-tracked experimental substance, I got news for you---my needles are larger in diameter and the injections they give are gonna really screw up your day.
__________________
"Why is is called Common Sense when it seems so few actually possess it?" Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Politicians. |
|
|