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Old April 25, 2012, 07:29 AM   #1
Uncle Buck
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Powder Types

The choice to use a powder not listed for your bullet/cartridge combination can be a dangerous proposition. I talked to a guy over the week-end who loaded some rounds "... with stuff I had on hand." He is looking for a new rifle because his blew up on him. He said he could not find any load info using the powder he had and figured it would be safe if he only filled the cartridge "Almost to the top, but not compressed." He has never heard of the powder burn rate chart.

I think I have learned to use the powder burn rate chart.

Sometimes when I am trying to develop a new load, I will look at the powder burn rate chart and I see the powder I have on hand is listed one or two spots above or below another powder recommended. (Example: H4895 is listed at 110 and IMR4895 is listed at 114, meaning that H4895 burns faster than IMR 4895).

By reducing my loads 10%, I have used H4895 instead of IMR4895. I use this powder for my .30-06. (I have also read about these two powders and felt comfortable using this 10% formula in this case. I also do not load anywhere near max for any round I shoot.)

This worked for me and now I have a load that is beautiful.

So, my questions for the guys and gals who have been doing this for a long time are:

1. Am I safe going up or down a few lines on the powder burn rate chart? (Did I use it correctly?)

2. At what point do you say "no", the powder I want to use is too far away on the burn chart from the powder recommended?

3. Can this spread also be used for pistol powders as well?

I currently have 12 different powders on my shelf, some which I really like and others, not so much. I am not adverse to trying new powders but I do like to use what I have on hand when possible. (W231 is my latest addition to the powder supply. I use it in the .45 ACP and again, wish to say thanks for recommending it.)
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Old April 25, 2012, 07:35 AM   #2
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1. Am I safe going up or down a few lines on the powder burn rate chart? (Did I use it correctly?) Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
2. At what point do you say "no", the powder I want to use is too far away on the burn chart from the powder recommended?
Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
3. Can this spread also be used for pistol powders as well?
Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
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Old April 25, 2012, 08:05 AM   #3
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Yes I've done it but mostly it doesn't make that much sense. At 20 bucks per pound and the ability to get a good powder for what you're loading via the internet, it makes little sense to risk a good weapon for a few pennies of savings. Also with the phone # on the package just make a call if you choose to do it and the mfg can give you some valuable information that may save you at trip the the ER! I just don't need the to do it so badly as to risk it, but to each their own. I just don't to want to be one of the idiots that get caught and put on youtube, and with my luck that is where I'd be posted with a caption like "look at this idiot looses eye in kaboom!"
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Old April 25, 2012, 08:38 AM   #4
Jim Watson
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The chart is a rank order. There is no way to tell how far apart in actual behavior the powders are. True, H4895 is close to IMR4895 both on the chart and in the gun. But a similar assumption about H4831 and IMR4831 could cause trouble. The retail IMR brand is enough "faster" than the surplus Hodgdon started out with and then had copied by contract powder mills to make a real difference in loads.
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Old April 25, 2012, 09:43 AM   #5
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Uncle Buck,
The guy you described in the first paragraph of you post is an idiot. Probably a good candidate for Darwinian natural selection.
I think you did fine with the chart, by the way. I've been hand loading for almost 50 years now and extrapolating powder for powder in a given cartridge used to be quite common among hand loaders who used a modicum of common sense. I still do it quite a bit. It's pretty easy to see which powders are close to each other in burning rate either on a chart or by studying the various loads in a good reloading manual and seeing which powders are popular for a given cartridge and the charge weights of each.
For example H380 falls somewhere between IMR 4320 and 4350 in burn rate.
It is a tad slower than 4320 and somewhat faster than 4350. In the Lyman #46 book the loads for H380 are usually about one grain heavier than 4320, so if I have H380 on hand but have no data for a given bullet weight in a given cartridge, and I have data for the same bullet weight using 4320, I feel safe using the STARTING load for 4320 with H380. Then I work up in the usual manner looking for pressure signs and the best accuracy.

Powder charges are just one part of safe hand loading. When I do experiments like this I make sure the other components - cases, primers, bullet weight - are the same. All cartridge cases are not equal in their capacities in a given caliber. For example, in the olden days we knew that surplus G.I. 30-06 cases usually had a little less capacity than, say, R-P commercial cases, so we would back off the powder charge a little. Anytime I change case brands or primers I always back off my load to my starting powder charge and work up again. And I never shoot ammo worked up in one gun in another gun. Ever.
I'm sure some folks think that this kind of experimental stuff is too dangerous and that's fine. This is supposed to be fun and it's hard to have fun if one is worried about blowing up a gun with a wrong load. I guess I'm old school enough to have confidence in my own brain power and common sense. After all, Elmer Keith broke the rules using Hercules 2400 in .44 Special loads (at the time Hercules didn't recommend using 2400 in handguns) and now we have the .44 Mag as a result. Everyone needs to decide his/her own limits and how deeply they want to delve into this fascinating hobby. As long as one is careful and uses common sense there will be no kabooms.
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Old April 25, 2012, 10:42 AM   #6
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Quote:
1. Am I safe going up or down a few lines on the powder burn rate chart? (Did I use it correctly?) Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
2. At what point do you say "no", the powder I want to use is too far away on the burn chart from the powder recommended?
Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
3. Can this spread also be used for pistol powders as well?
Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
Excellent advice!

You can call the powder manufacturer. There are all sorts of people following Seafire's example of using Blue Dot in the .223. There are reports of a few of them blowing their rifles up. I called Alliant and talked about this. They don't recommend Blue Dot in the .223, said a small change in components results in big changes in pressure. Blue Dot is just too sensitive in that case.

So, I learned something. Sometimes powder combinations are not appropriate for some cartridges. The reloading manuals and the manufacturer's are good sources for reliable information.
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Old April 25, 2012, 11:47 AM   #7
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He said he could not find any load info using the powder he had and figured it would be safe if he only filled the cartridge "Almost to the top, but not compressed." He has never heard of the powder burn rate chart.
This speaks volumes. A burn rate chart is included with every manual I've ever read. This is clearly someone who should not be allowed near a loading press.

I've experimented when there was a complete lack of load data, but honestly those are really rare, unique cases. The Blue Dot/.223 example above is a good one. Cast bullet shooting with my M1 Garand is another. I've got a Rossi 92 in .44 mag with a .433" grove diameter. The only bullets I use in it are from a custom mould that drops a 295 grain .434" bullet. The larger diameter makes for more case tension, and it's a design that sits several hundredths of an inch deeper than other designs of similar weight. So if I just blindly used hot load data for a 300 grain cast bullet, I could easily be in the danger zone.

One trap that people can fall into when extrapolating from a burn rate chart is assuming that everything stays linear as pressure and other variables change. Under different circumstances powders will swap relative positions on the chart. At lower pressures powder A may have a slower relative burn rate compared to powder B, but at higher pressures that might reverse.
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Old April 25, 2012, 12:35 PM   #8
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I'll extrapolate handgun cartridge data if I am familiar with the powder, but I wont do it for Rifle data or with a newish powder for me. It's just too dangerous.
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Old April 25, 2012, 01:17 PM   #9
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I'll do the same thing on occasion, but I'll look at all the Published Load Data I can before making that decision. Many move in the direction of Higher Velocity, while I look at it differently...more loads per pound (safely), complete burn within the bore...especially when using lighter bullets.

But without consulting Burn Rate Chart(s) and Load Data?! Oh to the NO.
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Old April 25, 2012, 02:09 PM   #10
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all of the data in your manual listed in order of the burn rate of the powders listed? I know that my data is set up that way for handgun loads. I would assume that the rifle loads are set up in a similar manner. (I don't reload for rifle)
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Old April 25, 2012, 02:51 PM   #11
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Besides the manuals, you also have the powder maker's sites readily available - sorry, there is no excuse for not using the wealth of readily available SAFE and PROVEN loads out there - unless you like to really try for the Darwin Award
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Old April 25, 2012, 02:57 PM   #12
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No, I think using the burn rate charts ...and developing your own loads ...or interpolating your own loads based on burn rate tables ....is way to risky !!

The published recipes ...published minimums and maximums are there for a reason ... and I honestly don't see any reason to go beyond them and experiment / but I've only been doing this off and on for a little over 50 yrs ...and maybe I'm conservative .../ but I've never blown up a gun or even had a squib round or an overcharged round in tens of thousands of handloads in 50 or so handguns....

I understand the "curiosity" ....but that's what killed that cat ...as they say !

My hands and eyes that are behind those guns ....and my guns ...are way to valuable to me, to experiment with my loads outside of the published recipes - but just my opinion.

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Old April 25, 2012, 03:38 PM   #13
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Unclenick,

I think people are being a bit harsh with you here. I do see their point about safety, but making informed decissions about components is part of the game.

In your example of H4895 vs. IMR4895, it is completely prudent to extrapolate from published load data from one to the other. In the Sierra manual, there is very little Hodgdon data listed, but lots of IMR data. After looking at each powders' location on the burn rate chart and reading the descriptions and uses suggested by the manufacturer, I see nothing wrong with starting out 10% low with H4895 and working up loads.

For example, from the Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester website:

Quote:
H4895: This is a most versatile rifle powder. This member of the Extreme Extruded line powder is great for 17 Remington, 250-3000 Savage, 308 Winchester and 458 Winchester, to name just a few. It is amazingly accurate in every cartridge where it is listed in our data. It had its origin in the 30-06 as a military powder and was the first powder Bruce Hodgdon sold to the loading public. Available in 1 lb. & 8 lb. containers.
Quote:
IMR 4895: Originally a military powder featured in the 30-06, IMR 4895 is extremely versatile. From the 17 Remington to the 243 Winchester to the 375 H&H Magnum, accuracy and performance are excellent. In addition, it is a longtime favorite of Match shooters.
After reading these descriptions and looking at a burn rate chart, a prudent person can come to some safe conclusion that both powders are similar, but not identical.

If all you have on hand is IMR data and Hodgdon powder, I would be very comfortable with reducing 10% and building a load.

So, in conclusion, don't beat yourself up for making informed and educated decisions. Do your research and be carefull, that is what makes this hobby fun.
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Old April 25, 2012, 05:38 PM   #14
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Answer: What does your hand loading manual say?
If I understand the answer given above, then all that is necessary is to refer to the commandments contained in the Book (manual) and all will be well. For example, we’ll just take a look at what three manuals have to say for a 9mm 125/124 grain Jacketed bullet with Power Pistol powder.

Manual Minimum - grains Maximum - grains
Lyman 5.1 5.7
Lee 6.0 6.6
Speer 5.6 6.4

Now that we have been enlightened, we know where to start and the “do not exceed” maximum…or do we? I find that I must exercise some intelligence just to sort out the information in the manuals. I don’t see why the same sort of reasoning used to figure out the information given in manuals couldn’t be used judicially to tinker with a powder burn rate chart to scope out a possible alternate powder and then find the loading information for that powder.

In the 9mm example above, which manual is "right"? Now for kicks and giggles - go find 4 to 6 different burn rate charts and see how they compare to each other. Which one of them is "right"?

In serious boating, one tries to get a chart. If the waters are uncharted, either go slow and make frequent soundings or don't go there.
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Old April 26, 2012, 02:36 AM   #15
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It'd be so nice if there was only a single manual for all possible loads.

I have a method I follow. First, I check the powder maker's manual. Then I check the bullet maker's manual. Then, I'll peruse other manuals and data. usually, I will take the higher of the two between bullet and powder maker's manuals, and stay at start charge.

Cherry picking the load data that gives you permission to cram the most possible powder in a case isn't bright.

If you have a preferred powder, and the powder maker's data doesn't provide a load, check the bullet maker's data. If neither of the companies provide load data for that combination, it's a sign that you shouldn't ignore.
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Old April 26, 2012, 06:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
After reading these descriptions [H4895 vs IMR4895] and looking at a burn rate chart, a prudent person can come to some safe conclusion that both powders are similar, but not identical.
Agree... but.....
Do not, I say again -- do NOT -- make the assumption that such powders are the same.
(Even though Hornady 8th might make you think so)

Example for 308Win:
46gr of IMR4895 behind a Speer 165gr HPBT will produce 61,000psi (1,000 below max)
46gr of H4895 behind that same bullet will produce more than 67,000psi

"Burn rates" are interesting, and that's all. They tell you nothing about how much energy
is in a given weight of powder, its progressive burn rate under increasing pressure,
where that progressive burn peaks out, the volume of powder for a given weight...

You get the picture....

Last edited by mehavey; April 26, 2012 at 06:49 AM.
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Old April 26, 2012, 08:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
If I understand the answer given above, then all that is necessary is to refer to the commandments contained in the Book (manual) and all will be well. For example, we’ll just take a look at what three manuals have to say for a 9mm 125/124 grain Jacketed bullet with Power Pistol powder.

Manual Minimum - grains Maximum - grains
Lyman 5.1 5.7
Lee 6.0 6.6
Speer 5.6 6.4

Now that we have been enlightened, we know where to start and the “do not exceed” maximum…or do we? I find that I must exercise some intelligence just to sort out the information in the manuals. I don’t see why the same sort of reasoning used to figure out the information given in manuals couldn’t be used judicially to tinker with a powder burn rate chart to scope out a possible alternate powder and then find the loading information for that powder.

In the 9mm example above, which manual is "right"? Now for kicks and giggles - go find 4 to 6 different burn rate charts and see how they compare to each other. Which one of them is "right"?

In serious boating, one tries to get a chart. If the waters are uncharted, either go slow and make frequent soundings or don't go there.
Quote:
Manual Minimum - grains Maximum - grains
Lyman 5.1 5.7
Lee 6.0 6.6
Speer 5.6 6.4
These are not the loads the manuals list. You have left out, which case (R-P, WW, etc.), which primer, which bullet they used in each manual. All those factors can influence the starting and do not exceed amount of powder. If you are not willing to follow the charts exactly, you should not be hand loading. Hand loading should be a safe sport. There is no good reason to experiment with powders in a relative burning rate chart. Follow the recommendations in the manuals, shoot more, experiment less. When you are out of the powder that is listed in the manual, go buy some more.
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Old April 26, 2012, 08:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
If I understand the answer given above, then all that is necessary is to refer to the commandments contained in the Book (manual) and all will be well. For example, we’ll just take a look at what three manuals have to say for a 9mm 125/124 grain Jacketed bullet with Power Pistol powder.

Manual Minimum - grains Maximum - grains
Lyman 5.1 5.7
Lee 6.0 6.6
Speer 5.6 6.4
I'm having the same questions in this thread:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=486368&page=2

Quote:
These are not the loads the manuals list. You have left out, which case (R-P, WW, etc.), which primer, which bullet they used in each manual. All those factors can influence the starting and do not exceed amount of powder. If you are not willing to follow the charts exactly, you should not be hand loading.
The data I am questioning from the Hodgdon website in that other thread has no info whatsoever on case/COL/primer...

http://data.hodgdon.com/

Where do we draw the line at "should not be hand loading" if the powder companies themselves do not offer complete info?
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Old April 26, 2012, 09:58 AM   #19
Uncle Buck
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The guy you described in the first paragraph of you post is an idiot. Probably a good candidate for Darwinian natural selection.
Funny, That is what I told my wife when we left the store.

Thanks for the replies guys. I have no interest in making a bomb and the two stores I did check did not have IMR 4895. I also googled H4895 vs IMH4895 after I looked at the burn rate chart.
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Old April 26, 2012, 06:47 PM   #20
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If you have a preferred powder, and the powder maker's data doesn't provide a load, check the bullet maker's data. If neither of the companies provide load data for that combination, it's a sign that you shouldn't ignore.
That right there is a good rule to follow. If a powder manuf. does NOT list a load for a particular bullet/cartridge combination, there's probably a darn good reason. That reason usually is; they tried it, and it didn't work! The burn rate HAS to match the combo or it just won't work.

When loading for an obsolete cartridge, there's seldom any data. Then, you just have to try to match it with some other very similar shell, that DOES have data in a manual. It should closely match in case capacity and bullet weight and diameter. Use a powder like H-4895 that's very versatile, and can tolerate low pressures with no problems.(It's the one powder used in very reduced loads, or "youth loads".)

Working with wildcats is where you have to be really careful. They often are based on a parent cartridge that can be used for starting loads.

Back a while ago, I started loading for the then new 300 WSM. No data was available, other than one load using WW-760, which turned out to be WAY too hot! Brass was also hard to find, even factory loads were scarce. I managed to find 2 boxes, so off to the range I went.

I ended up with a good load with 180 grain SST's pushed by H-4831. My starting load was a max load for 30-06. I proved to be very mild, only pushing the 180 to 2500 fps. Gradually increasing, I ended up with IIRC an accurate load at 2950 fps.

With 50 years in this game, I feel I can do such things safely. It is CERTAINLY NOT what a rookie loader should be doing.
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Old April 26, 2012, 06:58 PM   #21
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Strictly following the load manuals and powder and bullet makers published load information would result in me having no reloaded 9mm cartridges with Berrys 124 grain hollow back flat point bullets and I'd be missing out on one of my favorite competition rounds. Zero published info for that bullet (at least I couldn’t find it).

I kinda expected someone might point out that I didn’t list complete load information, but if we’re to go the purest route, let’s not forget the shown manual loads are based on their test barrel. Does that mean we can’t use them in our pistol? Repeat the reloader’s mantra: start low, work up.

My main point was use your brain; while the secondary point was find enough information to enable you to operate in a safe manner or don’t go there. It’s the uninformed reloaders that scare the dickens out of me!

This thread is of interest to me because a coworker claims he has 15 or 18 pounds of an ancient pistol/shotgun powder which he may sell to me for a song (and a few buck-a-roos). The stuff was out of production before the 40S&W hit the scene and I’m wondering about picking up the stuff and developing a load…..

….and we all know a 40S&W never blows up. Right?

snuffy is right - this ain't a game for rookies (and sissies and the ignorant)
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Old April 26, 2012, 08:49 PM   #22
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snuffy is right - this ain't a game for rookies (and sissies and the ignorant)
I wouldn't go that far.

Manufacturing ammo is really an easy thing to do. If a person learns the basic method, does his homework on technique, and follows reliable data without playing any games, it's safe.

Get a load, get a bullet, stay with conservative charges, and just follow the manual and the rules.

Set up a progressive press properly, exercise diligence, and use proper data, and even a person with very little mechanical skills or knowledge can safely make ammunition.

There is nothing at all, IMO, that is more important than mentoring someone through the learning process. I was mentored by wild eyed hillbillies that thought that the 30-30 should be able to drop a rhino. You can't be a tim allen character and be a safe reloader
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:06 PM   #23
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So far with the exception of one cartridge that I load for I have been able to find published loads, that have powders I have been able to find on the shelf at the places I shop.

The one that published data does not exist for that I know of well I found a couple of old magazines that had load data. Loads started low, and worked well enough that increase was not needed.
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Old April 26, 2012, 10:17 PM   #24
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I have only been handloading for about five of my 55 years, but I am well acquainted with the saying about old pilots and bold pilots...and it applies to handloaders as well.

No offense, but I think you should go back and re-read your own sig line. There is a pearl of wisdom in there.
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Old April 27, 2012, 02:02 AM   #25
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Quote:
3. Can this spread also be used for pistol powders as well?

No, NEVER. Pistol powders are a world apart from each other. If there is no load data for than bullet/caliber, there is a reason for it not being there.


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