Loading 223 with the components that I already have

[mrappe]

I have loaded many calibers before but never for 223/5.56 because in the past it was cheap. Over the years I have purchased a RCBS .223 REM/5.56X45 SB T/C die set and some Rem .223 brass and Hornady 55gn FMJ-BT bullets and I already had some CCI 400 primers and various powders. The powders that I have that may work would be IMR4895. H4895, IMR4064, IMR4198 & Varget. I have Hornady & Speer loading manuals from the early 90s and just purchased the Hornady app. I am trying to determine which powder would work the best for an CAR-15 with 1/7 twist barrel. Also I was comparing the load data between the Old Hornady manual and the new app. There seems to be difference between starting and max loads for each of the powders listed that are in common between the two.
Any advice would appreciated.
Thanks

[Shadow9mm]

Fair warning, CCI recommends 450 or #41 primers in the AR platform due to the free floating firing pin. They said you may be able to get away with 400s, but take it to the range, chamber a round, and make sure the dent from the firing pin during chambering is not overly pronounced.

Personally I had poor luck with varget and 55g, much lower velocity than listed. From what I understand it performs better with 69s and 77s.

I have not tried the other powders you have, however looking thought my Hornady manual, this would be my though process for whatever that's worth to you.

IMR 4198, I would stay away from it. Most loads seems to be in the 22-28g range at max. Low powder volume generally means slower loads, and it maxes out around 20g, a full 2.0g lower.

H4895 has potential based on max powder volume.
IMR 4064, no Hornady data, had to look at Hodgdon's. Volume looks ok maxing out at around 25g, however all max loads were compressed. I try and avoid compressed loads.

My personal go to is CFE223. I run it at 27.0g (0.4g below max) with the hornady 55g fmj out of a 16in barrel ar. AVG 2946fps, SD 15, ES 48 on a 10 shot string. Has shot well in a number of different AR's, a bit sooty, but it cleans easily, and its a ball powder so it meters easily, YMMV.

[mrappe]

Thanks for the reply. I am trying to load with the components that I have because of the expense and the trouble trying to find things and especially the primers. I don't have any other rifles that take a small rifle primer. I have seen other people around the web talking about floating firing pins in semi auto rifles but I haven't seen anyone actually mentioning that they had a problem, never less; I will probably take the gun to a range with some empty cases with primers in them and stick a few in the chamber to see how much of a dent is made.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by mrappe

Thanks for the reply. I am trying to load with the components that I have because of the expense and the trouble trying to find things and especially the primers. I don't have any other rifles that take a small rifle primer. I have seen other people around the web talking about floating firing pins in semi auto rifles but I haven't seen anyone actually mentioning that they had a problem, never less; I will probably take the gun to a range with some empty cases with primers in them and stick a few in the chamber to see how much of a dent is made.

I have used a lot of 400 no problem personally, then I got yelled at in a forum. I got a burr in my saddle and called CCI myself to get a straight answer. What they told me is what I related to you. They recommend the other ones, but said the 400 may be fine, check them in your gun to make sure the dent in the primer is not excessive during chambering, its very gun specific, some may be fine, some may not. Hopefully your gun likes them.

[Marco Califo]

I was getting pierced primers with 400s and stopped using them. CCI 450 & #41's are good and prevent Slamfires. I got 5000 Tula 5.56M when they were available. I like those a lot.
55 grain bullets do not need 1:7. That fast twist will stabilize long and heavy bullets. I am able to shoot 70 gr and 75 gr in 1:9 twist Savage bolt guns.
I use Accurate 2200 (Barnes Varmit Grenades up to 50 gr.), 2460, 2520, and H335 & WC844 65 gr and lighter. CFE223 is a good choice, too.

[Nick_C_S]

Fair warning, CCI recommends 450 or #41 primers in the AR platform due to the free floating firing pin. They said you may be able to get away with 400s, but take it to the range, chamber a round, and make sure the dent from the firing pin during chambering is not overly pronounced.

I've loaded 1000 rounds of 223 with CCI 400's and have yet to have a slam-fire. I think I still have about 150 rounds unfired. So it hasn't happened to me. But just the same, I only chamber my AR's at the range, pointing downrange. It's a documented thing, but not real common, evidently.

It happened once to a friend of mine (at the range). But I don't know what primer he was using - it was the cheapest money can buy, I can assure you of that .

[44 AMP]

The 55gr FMJ -bt is the original GI bullet, not good for much in the civilian world except plinking and practice.

The powders you have and the barrel you have will probably not quite allow duplicating the original GI load speed. 3000-3100's at max are likely the 3200fps of the GI load is probably just out of reach with what you have, even at max load levels.

The floating firing pin does bounce off the primer when the action shuts. If it leaves a tiny dimple, you're good. IF it leaves a nearly normal "fired round" dent, or actually fires a round, you need different primers!

[jetinteriorguy]

I use H4895 and Varget with great success with 62gr and heavier bullets. For the 55gr bullets either H335 or Bl-C2 works great. This is in a 1/8 twist 18” heavy profile barrel.

[mrappe]

I inserted two empty/primed cases into the chamber and released the held back bolt on them and this is what I noticed. A very small and light mark on the primers.

[Marco Califo]

Originally Posted by mrappe

I inserted two empty/primed cases into the chamber and released the held back bolt on them and this is what I noticed. A very small and light mark on the primers.

You have confirmed that the firing pin contacts the Primer when chambered. That indicates the need for 450s, #41, or other robust primers

[rmh3481]

I got great accuracy out of IMR 4198 with 55gr bullets in a 20in Colt Target Ar.

[georgehwbush]

i agree the H-4895 will work, shame you don't have any H-LVR that stuff while not made for 223 works wonders, i love it in 223 cases.

out a savage axis bolt gun i get .435" groups with CCI-200, 25.9gr H-LVR, and 69gr SMK.

but yes the H-4895 is probably better for the gas gun, especally if you are not metering your gas with an adjustable block.

[georgehwbush]

sorry; correction CCI-400 my bad.

[Marco Califo]

Click on your post, and select Edit. It works for around 3 days

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by mrappe

I inserted two empty/primed cases into the chamber and released the held back bolt on them and this is what I noticed. A very small and light mark on the primers.

Personally id say your probably ok, can you upload a pic?

[mrappe]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Personally id say your probably ok, can you upload a pic?

I have tried to post the picture by the URL but it never shows up.

https://imgur.com/gallery/Z8SQCUi

[Shadow9mm]

Its a little weird to upload pics here, these are the OP'S pics from the link, hopefully that will let some other members get a good look.

Personally its a bit more of a mark that I would like to see I would not use them. That looks like what I would expect to see if the same round had been chambered multiple times.

Midway has the #41 available, and I am sure you can find them other places as well.
Winchester $92.99 for 1000 https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1023007962?pid=426953
CCI $119.99 per 1000 https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1301170074?pid=170074

[603Country]

I had a couple of slamfires with the AR when using the CCI-400’s in ammo I had loaded for the bolt gun. Never a problem using BR-4’s, 450’s or 41’s. Last loads used Winchester 41’s.

Those primer dimples in shadow9mm’s picture look a bit deeper than my dimpled primers.

[rc]

Try the 4895. Works good in 1:9 twist 223 with most bullets I tried and I assume will in 1:7 too. It seems to be one of the most versatile rifle powders in bottle neck cases and works great in 308. 4198 may work or it may give cycling issues in a semi auto. It is preferred in straight walled cases and has appplications in 30-30 and 7.62x39. If you can get AA2230 it is a small ball that flows great. I like that one best in 223 over 748, 4198, 4895 and Reloader 15 but TAC is very close and works good too.

[Unclenick]

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from using this information.

Mrappe,

Your IMR4198 should work well if you are not after maximum velocity. I read somewhere that Eugene Stoner used it early in AR development, but it was dropped because its maximum load fell short of his target velocity by a couple of hundred fps. Its maximum loads are about 9% lighter than the bottom end of the usual 223 powder charge range, as Shadow9mm pointed out, but it is also about 9% bulkier than IMR4895, so the light weight does not mean unacceptable case fill. The maximum listed Hodgdon load should be over 85% case fill. That will produce a bit more velocity variation than a higher case fill. Still, many have noted in the 222 Remington, where IMR4198 is more commonly used, that despite more velocity variation than some other powders, it often produced the best accuracy. Velocity variation and accuracy don't always coincide. Lower recoil, muzzle blast, and average barrel time can sometimes be the dominant accuracy terms.

Your primer dents are pretty pronounced. It leads me to ask, how deeply are you seating your primers? Many bolt rifle shooters are in the habit of seating only until they feel the primer anvil's feet touch the floor of the primer pocket. The military, however, will typically compress the anvil into the primer pellet to about -0.003" (what they call reconsolidating the primer, aka, setting the bridge). I've seen tests reported where this improved accuracy and tests reported where it reduced accuracy. The results are not consistent. However, it does move the back end of the primer cup further from the tip of your firing pin and may reduce the chambering indentation, so it's worth trying out.

You can also measure the length of your firing pin protrusion. This video is a good demonstration of how to do it. It should be between 0.028" and 0.036", with 0.032" right in the middle. If yours is on the long side, a different firing pin or a different bolt body can correct it.

Another path is to get a titanium firing pin, whose lower mass will mean it carries less kinetic energy when it hits the firing pin, and the pin metal has to apply less force to bring it to a stop. This thread at Brain Enos's forum includes a post by a fellow who had slamfires and stopped them by getting a titanium firing pin. I tried going to the source recommended in the video, but my browsers all refused because it was insecure and had tracking cookies, like Google.com.

[FrankenMauser]

1:7 twist is fast for 55 gr bullets. Don't expect peak performance.
You'd be better off getting some 69-77 gr projectiles.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Unclenick

CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from using this information.

Mrappe,

Your IMR4198 should work well if you are not after maximum velocity. I read somewhere that Eugene Stoner used it early in AR development, but it was dropped because its maximum load fell short of his target velocity by a couple of hundred fps. Its maximum loads are about 9% lighter than the bottom end of the usual 223 powder charge range, as Shadow9mm pointed out, but it is also about 9% bulkier than IMR4895, so the light weight does not mean unacceptable case fill. The maximum listed Hodgdon load should be over 85% case fill. That will produce a bit more velocity variation than a higher case fill. Still, many have noted in the 222 Remington, where IMR4198 is more commonly used, that despite more velocity variation than some other powders, it often produced the best accuracy. Velocity variation and accuracy don't always coincide. Lower recoil, muzzle blast, and average barrel time can sometimes be the dominant accuracy terms.

Your primer dents are pretty pronounced. It leads me to ask, how deeply are you seating your primers? Many bolt rifle shooters are in the habit of seating only until they feel the primer anvil's feet touch the floor of the primer pocket. The military, however, will typically compress the anvil into the primer pellet to about -0.003" (what they call reconsolidating the primer, aka, setting the bridge). I've seen tests reported where this improved accuracy and tests reported where it reduced accuracy. The results are not consistent. However, it does move the back end of the primer cup further from the tip of your firing pin and may reduce the chambering indentation, so it's worth trying out.

You can also measure the length of your firing pin protrusion. This video is a good demonstration of how to do it. It should be between 0.028" and 0.036", with 0.032" right in the middle. If yours is on the long side, a different firing pin or a different bolt body can correct it.

Another path is to get a titanium firing pin, whose lower mass will mean it carries less kinetic energy when it hits the firing pin, and the pin metal has to apply less force to bring it to a stop. This thread at Brain Enos's forum includes a post by a fellow who had slamfires and stopped them by getting a titanium firing pin. I tried going to the source recommended in the video, but my browsers all refused because it was insecure and had tracking cookies, like Google.com.

Interesting link on the titanium firing pin, they call it titanium but in the description it’s made of stainless steel. So I wonder what is it.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by jetinteriorguy

Interesting link on the titanium firing pin, they call it titanium but in the description it’s made of stainless steel. So I wonder what is it.

My guess would be a titanium nitrided coating like you can get om drill bits.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

My guess would be a titanium nitrided coating like you can get om drill bits.

Then they wouldn’t necessarily be any lighter than a standard steel pin, so no real advantage to being the lighter weight/less mass of a true titanium pin, thus minimizing the possibility of a slam fire.

[44 AMP]

Inserting a primed case and dropping the locked back bolt on to it is an "upper end test" and causes the primer to be struck harder than usual. IF you're ok there, you're very likely to be ok when feeding loaded rounds from the magazine.

The weight of a loaded round, and the force required to strip it from the magazine and push it into the chamber will slow down the bolt (slightly) so the firing pin won't bounce off the primer quite as hard.

The test for this is to use actual live ammo (Or dummies) where it is safe to do so, and fire a round or a few, then eject an unfired round from the chamber and examine the mark on the primer.