Friend breaks up an attempted robbery!

[threegun]

Were the bad guy(s) White, Latino, or Black?

I ask because, a mentality factor comes into play in a scenario like this.

PM Greysmoke and ask him but I think he was referring to the mentality of the bad guys.

Not really new to this concept. Please, understand that I want to know if I should respond differently to a Black man charging at me with a knife than I would a White man or an Eskimo. Thats it. That was my original question in response to post #2.

No difference.

[icedog88]

PM Greysmoke and ask him but I think he was referring to the mentality of the bad guys.

Because the question he asked was on an open forum and I would like to keep any communication or responses on this subject open as well. I, as you have probably surmised by now, am of the opinion that it makes absolutely no difference what the race of a person committing a crime would be. You train for the response to or an avoidance of a situation. Not for the race committing the crime. I have yet to see anyone offering a legit course on how to defend against brown people. I am not talking about the offensive scenarios trained for by the military, in prep for a specific action involving spec ops. Real world everyday stuff. The mentality of a BG is just that. A bad guy mentality. I can't be sure, but I can reasonably deduce that a stick-up man is going to try to stick someone up. I am a person of color but rest assured I am just as afraid of a gun stuck in my face by either a dark person or a pale one. I see a threat. That is what matters. THAT is what I respond to. His color doesn't say if he will shoot or not.
Now, if you are speaking CULTURALLY, that IS a different ball of wax. But as the majority of people living in this country are Americans, this is an American culture. The culture of American crime may differ than say Russian crime (just an example my Russian friends, no harm). Color has very little to do with culture. Europe is predominately white, very diverse culturally though. Especially when compared to American culture. So you probably would train differently in Greece than you would in Oregon. Both still predominately white though. Different culture.

No difference.

Thank you for bearing with me and trying to understand my point.

[threegun]

I think the point of "how to defend against different races" doesn't only mean the actual act of shooting. Greysmoke mentioned using someones mindset to help keep you safe. IMO it would be like telling an Arab that my bullets were soaked in pig blood. We can use what we know someones tendencies are, via race, to help formulate the proper response aka tactics. In this case it wouldn't afford any advantage IMO. It is part of the story however and sometimes folks just want to know, even minority folks like me.

[icedog88]

But that's not even actual training. More like superstition and crystal balls. You don't know the race of the person til IT happens, whatever IT may be. Look,I know there are prejudices in this country. Some people have them and some people don't. I live in a mostly white neighborhood. If someone in our neighborhood has a bonfire at night, should I huddle the kids together and expect a Klan visit? Cuz historically bonfires, whites, and blacks meant something bad! See how ridiculous that sounds? Making generalizations based on a small section of a community that gets sensationalized by media is not the proper basis for training.
I guess the only sure way to train for different races is to go back to the Jim Crow laws of the south. That way we know beforehand who comes into our shops, where they sit, how many are allowed at one time.

[icedog88]

And btw, not all Arabs are Muslim. It's the Muslim faith the doesn't allow swine.

[icedog88]

It is part of the story however and sometimes folks just want to know, even minority folks like me.

It really wasn't germane to the story at all. That's why it wasn't included in the original post.

[threegun]

In self defense you sell yourself short by not using everything possible to help you formulate your response. Everything from Statistics to Race play a part in my self defense strategy. By your thinking if you had shot a black bad guy in a black neighborhood you wouldn't flee the scene based on what you know has a high chance of happening when this combination is present. I just used race to avoid a potential hazard. If that is offensive so be it. My obligation is for me and mine.

I guess the only sure way to train for different races is to go back to the Jim Crow laws of the south. That way we know beforehand who comes into our shops, where they sit, how many are allowed at one time.

You keep saying train for different races. Its not training rather a set of tactics based on tendencies. Blacks in the Jim Crow south hardly presented a gang threat. In todays society and in certain areas they do. I would be foolish to ignore information gathered through profiling.

You also keep making the most extreme of statements. Seemingly bent on making us into racists or at minimum guilty of prejudice. Thats simply not the case here anyway. I am not afraid of doing what I need to do to increase my odds of survival. Political correctness has no place in my tactical tool box. If it rubs some of my internet friends the wrong way I am sorry.

And btw, not all Arabs are Muslim. It's the Muslim faith the doesn't allow swine.

Statistically speaking. Not all Mexicans working for lawn care services are illegal either. Statistically I would be in very good shape. BTW I have spoken to well over a dozen lawn care business owners who employee illegals through the pawnshop I work at.

[Skadoosh]

It's the Muslim faith the doesn't allow swine.

Jewish law also forbids the consumption of pork. Not that this really matters to the conversation...

[threegun]

It really wasn't germane to the story at all. That's why it wasn't included in the original post.

I didn't include it so as to not start THIS LOL. It wasn't germane to this story. It was however part of the story. I chose to leave it out to avoid it becoming a distraction to folks who are hyper sensitive. To avoid offending even though I don't believe its offensive. Thats my Opinion.

[icedog88]

Jewish law also forbids the consumption of pork.

Quite right. However I meant it only in the context of what I believed to be all Arabs are Muslim and all Muslims are Arab.

By your thinking if you had shot a black bad guy in a black neighborhood you wouldn't flee the scene based on what you know has a high chance of happening when this combination is present. I just used race to avoid a potential hazard. If that is offensive so be it. My obligation is for me and mine.

I probably wouldn't as I don't know the legal ramifications of shooting and fleeing the scene. Second, I am dark skinned, I don't think it would matter. Also having been in Somalia surrounded by crowds after engaging targets
, I am pretty well trained on how to handle gathering crowds.

Its not training rather a set of tactics based on tendencies.

You train using tactics. You train your brain to pick up perceived threats. So yes, I do say train. The implication by greysmoke was that you may be able to use a tactic based on a person's race to deal with that situation. I submit that is wrong. I use extreme examples to illustrate a point, not to paint anyone here as anything. If what I say fits your definition of a racist or prejudiced., that is for you to decide. I absolutely refuse to alienate through name calling. In no way am I offended by what has been said here, nor is it my intent to offend. Just trying to understand a post which contradicts a foundational belief that I have when training for scenarios.
As far as statistics, not one stat has been offered. The only one in my mind that has relevance would be if your shop is in a predominately black neighbor hood, your chances are higher that you will be robbed by blacks more than you would be by another race. Not that you will be robbed period. I don't get my stats from Fox news any more than I do from NYT.

I am by no means a sensitive person, just ask my ex wife, but I do believe that everyone is entitled to my not prejudging them based on stereotypes.

[threegun]

You train using tactics. You train your brain to pick up perceived threats. So yes, I do say train.

How do you train to use statistics? Likewise how do you train to know that remaining at some scenes could be dangerous?

You are not required by law to remain at a dangerous scene as long as you are in contact with police.

I am by no means a sensitive person, just ask my ex wife, but I do believe that everyone is entitled to my not prejudging them based on stereotypes.

We are also entitled to use whatever information available to form our defense. Prejudging is done on a daily basis and for many reasons some good and some bad. Fact is MOST humans do this to one form or another. Perhaps the girl with all the tatoos who initially projects the slut or tramp image. Or that Mexican guy working on the lawn projects an illegal alien image. The Arab on the airplane making Juan Williams uncomfortable, even minorities are guilty. Everybody I know has done it and most of them would be like you and appalled that I formulate a defense including this type information.

I think you are leaving something on the shelf by not using it.

[icedog88]

How do you train to use statistics?

What do you mean? I thought I said tactics. I don't train using stats.

Likewise how do you train to know that remaining at some scenes could be dangerous?

You only know that it could be, not that it is.
Threegun, you are also arguing a point that was actually posed to another person. You said yourself that you THINK he meant something when in fact only he can answer that. Gather your intel how you must. Use it how you will. I am saying there are other ways you can train without stereotyping.

Everybody I know has done it and most of them would be like you and appalled that I formulate a defense including this type information.

If most of the people you know have done it, then I doubt they would be appalled that you do it.

I think you are leaving something on the shelf by not using it.

I'm sorry. I can't see myself using a mindset that denigrates an entire race. It is exactly how it creeps into mainstream society and then blossoms into a place where people are no longer equal on any plane. I realize that this happens. Trust me. That way of thinking can get along just fine without me. We agree to disagree and I'm cool with that. Just don't shoot me if i walk into your shop looking hostile. My mom would be upset.

[Microgunner]

Everyone profiles, even blind people. It's human nature, whether they're willing to admit it or not.
Part of our self preservation instinct.

[icedog88]

I don't buy that. Just as you have learned to profile,you can "unlearn". Children don't profile, they are taught.

[Ringolevio]

threegun:

We are also entitled to use whatever information available to form our defense. Prejudging is done on a daily basis and for many reasons some good and some bad. Fact is MOST humans do this to one form or another. Perhaps the girl with all the tatoos who initially projects the slut or tramp image. Or that Mexican guy working on the lawn projects an illegal alien image. The Arab on the airplane making Juan Williams uncomfortable, even minorities are guilty. Everybody I know has done it and most of them would be like you and appalled that I formulate a defense including this type information.

I'm reminded of Jackie Mason, I think, saying "One thing you'll never hear said is 'Roll up the windows and lock the doors -- we're driving through a Jewish neighborhood!'"

[threegun]

I am saying there are other ways you can train without stereotyping.

I don't train to steriotype. I do use it when appropriate in my self defense decision making.

You only know that it could be, not that it is.

Exactly. I know it could be a possibility because of what? Race. Thats my point. I am now prepared to make decisions to either prevent or fend off the potential threat.

I can't see myself using a mindset that denigrates an entire race.

I am not denigrating anyone or any race. In the very early 90's I drove a Trans Am that was identical to the one on Knight Ride named KIT. During this time in Tampa, young Hispanic youths were terrorizing the area by stealing sportscars. It was an epidemic. One day I was coming home from my now wife then girlfriends house and I was pulled over for no reason. Initially I was angry but then I realized that it was actions by folks similar to me which cause this. The tactic itself, profiling, worked in short order. The officer was doing what was needed, maximizing her chances of stopping the crime.

It worked but the downside was I was offended by it. If it could be done without offending it would be perfect. Thats what I try to do.

[Microgunner]

Originally Posted by icedog88

Children don't profile, they are taught.

Good thing they have adults to protect them huh?

[threegun]

Everyone profiles, even blind people. It's human nature, whether they're willing to admit it or not.
Part of our self preservation instinct.

I don't buy that. Just as you have learned to profile,you can "unlearn". Children don't profile, they are taught.

As a child I learned that messing with a wasp nest was not very smart and really painful at times. We learn by what we experience. The same experiences that make someone roll up windows in a bad neighborhood or leave their doors open in a good one.

I have to agree with Microgunner.

[threegun]

Good thing they have adults to protect them huh?

My boys would be worm food already LOL. For being book smart they are awful dense about other dangers.

[Ringolevio]

Originally Posted by icedog88
Children don't profile, they are taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late
Before you are six, or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught.

"You've Got To Be Taught", from "South Pacific", by Richard Rodgers & Oscar Hammerstein

[Capt. Charlie]

Profiling has always been a hot topic on TFL, and it does have its place if done properly.

Properly means usually basing your assessment on multiple characteristics, not just one. For example, a blue guy walking into a green guy neighborhood Stop-'n'-Rob, might be noticeable, but it's grounds for little else.

Same guy walks into the same store right at closing time, doesn't buy anything, and it appears that he looks down to avoid surviellance cameras. It's probably time to up your alert level a couple of notches.

Same situation, but the guy's also wearing a trenchcoat on a hot day in July . Now you've built a pretty good case for believing that this guy doesn't have your best interests at heart.

All that said, we went from threegun's specific situation to profiling, and that has become too centered on race. That, in turn, requires a review of TFL's Rule #5:

5. Topics and conduct that will not be tolerated:
Drive-by cut and paste posting
Puerile bickering
Political Advocacy posts, or any purely political topic. However, some very few exceptions may be made.
Conspiracy threads or posts
Posts or threads on Race, Religion, and Sexuality
The End Of The World As We Know It (TEOTWAWKI), AKA: SHTF or Doomsday threads and Zombie threads
Knowingly and willfully advocating violation of a standing federal or state law (any state)
Violating our Copyrighted Material Policy

Even though the posters here have remained civil and respectful (and I do thank you for that ), it's probably time to put this one to bed, while it's still on the High Road.

Closed.