Letter from VA raises questions of intent

indie_rocker · October 1, 2014, 01:16 PM

This letter came in the mail today and my first thought, this is some attempt to find out what veterans own firearms. What are others thoughts? It just seems sketchy to me... So, no thank you.

Edit: it's printed on paper with the VA letterhead of the hospital I go to for primary care and came in a matching VA envelop.

2ndsojourn · October 1, 2014, 01:25 PM

Personally, I don't use gun locks. But if you're one of those that needs or uses them, with all the snooping, hacking & mis-use of information going on, for the little bit of money gun locks cost, I'd pass and buy my own. Maybe that's being a conspiracy theorist, but that's me. YMMV.

DaleA · October 1, 2014, 02:05 PM

Our local police used to provide free gun locks. Pretty much just stop by and pick them up. For all I know they still do. The ones I've seen don't look very good or secure to me. Most folk here don't care for them. Much better to keep your gun locked up. I don't think it's sketchy, I just think its some well meaning, but not very effective program.

Pahoo · October 1, 2014, 02:49 PM

For a number of years now, various organizations have offered these free lock programs. One of those groups, is our Hunter Safety training group. We handed out literally hundreds of these to the students. I think these are covered by a grant. ....

Now, the VA may be a different story or agenda. Personally I would disregard it and yes, I am that private and protective. ....

I understand that there are various insurance and doctors offices that have also sent out questionnaires. Personally I have not seen any but am ready with an appropriate response. ....

Be Safe !!!

**Aguila Blanca** · October 1, 2014, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaleA

Our local police used to provide free gun locks. Pretty much just stop by and pick them up. For all I know they still do. The ones I've seen don't look very good or secure to me. Most folk here don't care for them. Much better to keep your gun locked up. I don't think it's sketchy, I just think its some well meaning, but not very effective program.

It might be a well-intended program -- or it might not.

The letter says the recipient was selected at random. If the goal is to reach as many veterans as possible who own guns and need locks, what possible logic would lead to a mass mailing to a random sampling of their patient base? On the other hand, we veterans who use VA health care and who follow their shenanigans know that the VA has been actively trying to identify patients who own guns, and the VA has also been at the forefront of the move to prohibit anyone with PTSD from possessing firearms. For that reason alone, I would burn the letter.

For what it's worth, I am a VA healthcare client, and I have not received such a letter. But ... it could arrive tomorrow, or next week.

VA healthcare really isn't very good, but for some of us it's all we can afford. I let them give me an annual physical and send me my medications (most are cheaper through the VA, some are cheaper at Wal-Mart of Walgreen's), but I don't let them inside my head or my personal affairs.

**Aguila Blanca** · October 1, 2014, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pahoo

I understand that there are various insurance and doctors offices that have also sent out questionnaires. Personally I have not seen any but am ready with an appropriate response. ....

Me, too.

"GUNS?!?

"

**Frank Ettin** · October 1, 2014, 06:46 PM

I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access. They tend to attract folks who might want to handle them. They are a popular target for thieves. They can have significant economic value. They can do a lot of harm if misused.

But for a variety of reasons, I don't like gun locks. I prefer my safe and lock-boxes.

Pahoo · October 1, 2014, 06:59 PM

Quote:

I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access.

Not to hi-jack this post but I strongly recommend gun locks but only if you don't have a better means of securing them. I'm not worried about professional thief being able to get into my safe. That has been proven to only be a "slight" deterrent. I'm worried about dumb kids and what harm they could do with my modest collection. ...

Be Safe !!!

indie_rocker · October 1, 2014, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ettin

I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access... I prefer my safe and lock-boxes.

Couldn't have said it any better.

What threw me off was the source of the locks. As another member stated, I can go to my local police station and acquire the locks, if needed. Or purchase them for a reasonable price. It just seemed really odd and to be honest, uncomfortable, that the VA is taking interest in the security of my firearms???

Skans · October 2, 2014, 07:40 AM

I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access as well. I prefer legislation that makes it a capital crime for a person from any branch of the federal government from contacting citizens about their possible ownership or possession of guns under the guise of "safety".

**4V50 Gary** · October 2, 2014, 08:22 AM

I got my cable locks free from Jerome PD (Jerome, AZ). I'll grab all I can get but none of them go onto a firearm. That is, unless I'm teaching someone about safety, then I put it on a firearm for demonstrative purposes.

Going back to the VA, I would not take one from them. The limit of four suggests record keeping on their part.

Hunter Customs · October 2, 2014, 08:30 AM

In Missouri I think most county sheriff departments give out free gun locks, I see a lot of them used on farm gates.

As for VA or any medical association I would not give out any information I feel they don't need to know, I would pass on the locks.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

Aikibiker · October 2, 2014, 09:09 AM

I have a safe to secure my firearms. It is also fireproof. I use those gun locks they include with new pistols for my bicycle.

**44 AMP** · October 2, 2014, 11:44 AM

Considering the VA's record on a LOT of things, I don't want to be in their computers as a location they sent gun locks to....

I'm also very much against the general sentiment that gun locks are needed for "safety". Secure against theft is not a matter of safety.

One time I went to a Safety Expo...at one of the booths was a very nice young lady, who very earnestly explained all about how gun locks were needed for safety, and they gave away free locks. When I told her I would need at least 50, she wasn't so keen on talking to me, anymore...

Secure your guns as you see fit. Secure your ammo, as well, and there is no safety issue possible. Unless, of course, you are worried about some kid beating you or someone else to death with an unloaded gun....

I'm not very worried about that myself...

**Aguila Blanca** · October 2, 2014, 04:07 PM

I was at a VA hospital today. Between two appointments I had lunch in their cafeteria. Each table was adorned with a triangular stand-up card obviously aimed at the staff, reminding them to refer all callers who exhibit signs of [PTSD, but they didn't say that] to a special phone number for crisis intervention. The list of "trigger" behaviors is lengthy. They want the staff to ask veterans if they feel suicidal, if they have feelings of wanting to harm themselves or others, if they are feeling depressed, and several others.

IMHO this fits right in with the current initiative by the .gov to identify and classify as many cases of PTSD as possible. If I had faith in my government, I would say this is a positive step in trying to deal with veteran suicides and murder-suicides. But ... I don't trust my government. The typical government response to anything is overreaching, ham-handed, and never in favor of protecting individual constitutional rights. The problem with classifying anyone as PTSD is that they then report the individual to NICS, and the person becomes a prohibited person -- possibly without ever having threatened themselves or anyone else, and without any due process.

Take their pills, but don't trust them. Remember, the VA has a fully computerized record system. Anything entered into the record by a staffer in Augusta, Maine, is instantly available to anyone working for the VA healthcare system in San Diego, California, and all points in between. The former sanctity of the doctor-patient relationship DOES NOT EXIST.

campingnights · October 5, 2014, 10:22 AM

It smells, I would not give them any info.

When my kids were small, the best safety was their brain, not a gun lock. I taught them what a gun was, what it could and couldn't do and that whatever you did couldn't be taken back. I completely demystified guns to them. Worked well and works well with the grandkids now too.

GM1967 · October 5, 2014, 11:05 PM

Gun locks may not be expensive, but they cost money. So does sending a lot of letters out. No one spends that kind of money without wanting something in return. So the question is, what does the VA get out of it? I think you've already hit upon the answer. Don't give them what they want.

And part of the answer is in their letter....the part where they say they "look forward to continuing to partner with you in making decisions about your health."
That phrasing should ring alarm bells right there. YOU should be the one making decisions about your health...it sound like they want to make your decisions for you.

Ridgerunner665 · October 6, 2014, 12:30 AM

Looking past whether or not its a conspiracy of some sort...

I'm all for promoting firearms safety...primarily through proper training such as Hunters Safety and such (which should still be taught in schools)...but if you have kids in the home, at any time, whether they're yours or just visitors...you should have locks on your guns or your guns in a safe.

Gun cabinets don't cut it...they're nice to look at...but they just don't get it done for safely securing firearms.

Locks cost money, safes cost a fortune for a good one...a child is priceless.

My kids are both well educated (7 and 21 years old) on firearms...the little one won't mess with guns unless we're right there with him, I'm confident of that...he wouldn't dare pull a trigger without his hearing protection on, you couldn't even force him to...he doesn't like his ears ringing....but I still have a safe...I didn't buy it to prevent burglars from getting them, I bought it to keep visiting kids from getting them.

I just don't see the harm in promoting gun safety strategies such as locks, safes, and education...money spent doing that does far more good than money spent promoting useless magazine capacity limits and such BS as that.

I don't blame anyone for not trusting the VA, the VA dug that hole themselves...but there's no reason to not get your own locks, safes, or whatever.

**44 AMP** · October 6, 2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

And part of the answer is in their letter....the part where they say they "look forward to continuing to partner with you in making decisions about your health."
That phrasing should ring alarm bells right there. YOU should be the one making decisions about your health...it sound like they want to make your decisions for you.

I think you are reading a bit too much into that boiler plate statement. "Partnering with you..." is the current catchphrase used by nearly all health care groups these days.

Clearly, you, or I, don't know all there is to know about health care (if we did, we'd be doctors). So they need to partner with us, so between us, we can make informed decisions. You (or I) will still be the one making the decision. They're just there to help...

The issue, however, is when there is a difference of opinion between them, and us, about what the decision ought to be.

Personally, I'm not much on having other people tell me how I ought to live. And I really dislike having to pay for it!

Pahoo · October 6, 2014, 10:37 AM

Fellas, I'm seeing a lot of reference about having to buy gun locks. In our area we have three organizations that provide them for free. My understanding is that they were bought under a federal or state grant. Last week, there was a bin full at our local Gander Mountain, for free. I suspect that might be the case in your area, if you go looking for them. ....

Those of you who still store your guns under the bed, closets and where ever, might not hurt to put a lock on them. Just don't do what my buddy did, last week and lose the key. ......

Be Safe !!!

diggler1833 · October 6, 2014, 11:10 AM

Move letter to trash can....quickly

indie_rocker · October 6, 2014, 12:11 PM

I'm just glad to see others are suspicious of the VA's motive/anticipated outcome of this letter. The other half thinks I'm paranoid, lol. Her, "are you gonna take the locks?" Me, "hell no, they don't need to know I own firearms!"

Another member posted about locks being free from a few local sources for him. Such as a bin of locks when walking into a sporting goods store. If I walked into the VA one day and they had a bin of them, no questions asked, I would take a few. But there is no way I'm going to put my name on a piece of paper and send it to a federal administration just for some dang free locks!

**Aguila Blanca** · October 6, 2014, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Clearly, you, or I, don't know all there is to know about health care (if we did, we'd be doctors). So they need to partner with us, so between us, we can make informed decisions. You (or I) will still be the one making the decision. They're just there to help...

You clearly do not use the VA healthcare system ...

indie_rocker · October 7, 2014, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

You clearly do not use the VA healthcare system ...

This really got me laughing! Thank you!

**44 AMP** · October 7, 2014, 11:10 AM

No, I do not use the VA health care system, even though I am an eligible Viet Nam era veteran.

[QUOTE..]So they need to partner with us, so between us, we can make informed decisions...[/QUOTE]

This was intended to illustrate their stated point of view. REALITY, is of course, somewhat different.

The "local" VA hospital is a 40+ mile trip, one way, and its track record is just above abysmal. Crap, even if free, is still crap!

October 1, 2014, 02:49 PM	#4
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Decline !! For a number of years now, various organizations have offered these free lock programs. One of those groups, is our Hunter Safety training group. We handed out literally hundreds of these to the students. I think these are covered by a grant. .... Now, the VA may be a different story or agenda. Personally I would disregard it and yes, I am that private and protective. .... I understand that there are various insurance and doctors offices that have also sent out questionnaires. Personally I have not seen any but am ready with an appropriate response. .... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

October 1, 2014, 06:46 PM	#7
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access. They tend to attract folks who might want to handle them. They are a popular target for thieves. They can have significant economic value. They can do a lot of harm if misused. But for a variety of reasons, I don't like gun locks. I prefer my safe and lock-boxes. __________________ "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper

October 2, 2014, 08:22 AM	#11
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	I got my cable locks free from Jerome PD (Jerome, AZ). I'll grab all I can get but none of them go onto a firearm. That is, unless I'm teaching someone about safety, then I put it on a firearm for demonstrative purposes. Going back to the VA, I would not take one from them. The limit of four suggests record keeping on their part. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

October 2, 2014, 09:09 AM	#13
Aikibiker Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2002 Posts: 181	I have a safe to secure my firearms. It is also fireproof. I use those gun locks they include with new pistols for my bicycle. __________________ __________________________ ~Joel TFL survivor, THR member, TFL member once again!

October 2, 2014, 11:44 AM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	Considering the VA's record on a LOT of things, I don't want to be in their computers as a location they sent gun locks to.... I'm also very much against the general sentiment that gun locks are needed for "safety". Secure against theft is not a matter of safety. One time I went to a Safety Expo...at one of the booths was a very nice young lady, who very earnestly explained all about how gun locks were needed for safety, and they gave away free locks. When I told her I would need at least 50, she wasn't so keen on talking to me, anymore... Secure your guns as you see fit. Secure your ammo, as well, and there is no safety issue possible. Unless, of course, you are worried about some kid beating you or someone else to death with an unloaded gun.... I'm not very worried about that myself... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

October 1, 2014, 01:25 PM	#2
2ndsojourn Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,416	Personally, I don't use gun locks. But if you're one of those that needs or uses them, with all the snooping, hacking & mis-use of information going on, for the little bit of money gun locks cost, I'd pass and buy my own. Maybe that's being a conspiracy theorist, but that's me. YMMV.

October 1, 2014, 02:05 PM	#3
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,312	Our local police used to provide free gun locks. Pretty much just stop by and pick them up. For all I know they still do. The ones I've seen don't look very good or secure to me. Most folk here don't care for them. Much better to keep your gun locked up. I don't think it's sketchy, I just think its some well meaning, but not very effective program.

October 2, 2014, 07:40 AM	#10
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	I'm very much in favor of securing one's guns against unauthorized access as well. I prefer legislation that makes it a capital crime for a person from any branch of the federal government from contacting citizens about their possible ownership or possession of guns under the guise of "safety".

October 2, 2014, 08:30 AM	#12
Hunter Customs Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: Osborn, Missouri Posts: 2,697	In Missouri I think most county sheriff departments give out free gun locks, I see a lot of them used on farm gates. As for VA or any medical association I would not give out any information I feel they don't need to know, I would pass on the locks. Best Regards Bob Hunter www.huntercustoms.com

October 2, 2014, 04:07 PM	#15
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,459	I was at a VA hospital today. Between two appointments I had lunch in their cafeteria. Each table was adorned with a triangular stand-up card obviously aimed at the staff, reminding them to refer all callers who exhibit signs of [PTSD, but they didn't say that] to a special phone number for crisis intervention. The list of "trigger" behaviors is lengthy. They want the staff to ask veterans if they feel suicidal, if they have feelings of wanting to harm themselves or others, if they are feeling depressed, and several others. IMHO this fits right in with the current initiative by the .gov to identify and classify as many cases of PTSD as possible. If I had faith in my government, I would say this is a positive step in trying to deal with veteran suicides and murder-suicides. But ... I don't trust my government. The typical government response to anything is overreaching, ham-handed, and never in favor of protecting individual constitutional rights. The problem with classifying anyone as PTSD is that they then report the individual to NICS, and the person becomes a prohibited person -- possibly without ever having threatened themselves or anyone else, and without any due process. Take their pills, but don't trust them. Remember, the VA has a fully computerized record system. Anything entered into the record by a staffer in Augusta, Maine, is instantly available to anyone working for the VA healthcare system in San Diego, California, and all points in between. The former sanctity of the doctor-patient relationship DOES NOT EXIST. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; October 5, 2014 at 10:40 AM. Reason: typo

October 5, 2014, 10:22 AM	#16
campingnights Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2014 Location: Frozen North Posts: 272	It smells, I would not give them any info. When my kids were small, the best safety was their brain, not a gun lock. I taught them what a gun was, what it could and couldn't do and that whatever you did couldn't be taken back. I completely demystified guns to them. Worked well and works well with the grandkids now too. __________________ Cry HAVOC! and let loose the chihuahuas of war. My wife told me that I can't have too many guns, I agreed and told her I can never have too many guns...and then the trouble began

October 5, 2014, 11:05 PM	#17
GM1967 Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2010 Location: Delaware - formerly NJ Posts: 276	Gun locks may not be expensive, but they cost money. So does sending a lot of letters out. No one spends that kind of money without wanting something in return. So the question is, what does the VA get out of it? I think you've already hit upon the answer. Don't give them what they want. And part of the answer is in their letter....the part where they say they "look forward to continuing to partner with you in making decisions about your health." That phrasing should ring alarm bells right there. YOU should be the one making decisions about your health...it sound like they want to make your decisions for you.

October 6, 2014, 12:30 AM	#18
Ridgerunner665 Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2007 Location: Upper East Tennessee Posts: 477	Looking past whether or not its a conspiracy of some sort... I'm all for promoting firearms safety...primarily through proper training such as Hunters Safety and such (which should still be taught in schools)...but if you have kids in the home, at any time, whether they're yours or just visitors...you should have locks on your guns or your guns in a safe. Gun cabinets don't cut it...they're nice to look at...but they just don't get it done for safely securing firearms. Locks cost money, safes cost a fortune for a good one...a child is priceless. My kids are both well educated (7 and 21 years old) on firearms...the little one won't mess with guns unless we're right there with him, I'm confident of that...he wouldn't dare pull a trigger without his hearing protection on, you couldn't even force him to...he doesn't like his ears ringing....but I still have a safe...I didn't buy it to prevent burglars from getting them, I bought it to keep visiting kids from getting them. I just don't see the harm in promoting gun safety strategies such as locks, safes, and education...money spent doing that does far more good than money spent promoting useless magazine capacity limits and such BS as that. I don't blame anyone for not trusting the VA, the VA dug that hole themselves...but there's no reason to not get your own locks, safes, or whatever. Last edited by Ridgerunner665; October 6, 2014 at 12:46 AM.

October 6, 2014, 10:37 AM	#20
Pahoo Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2006 Location: IOWA Posts: 8,783	Gun locks are free and worth every cent !!! Fellas, I'm seeing a lot of reference about having to buy gun locks. In our area we have three organizations that provide them for free. My understanding is that they were bought under a federal or state grant. Last week, there was a bin full at our local Gander Mountain, for free. I suspect that might be the case in your area, if you go looking for them. .... Those of you who still store your guns under the bed, closets and where ever, might not hurt to put a lock on them. Just don't do what my buddy did, last week and lose the key. ...... Be Safe !!! __________________ 'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.

October 6, 2014, 11:10 AM	#21
diggler1833 Member Join Date: October 6, 2014 Location: NC Posts: 56	Move letter to trash can....quickly

October 6, 2014, 12:11 PM	#22
indie_rocker Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2014 Location: Michigan Posts: 189	I'm just glad to see others are suspicious of the VA's motive/anticipated outcome of this letter. The other half thinks I'm paranoid, lol. Her, "are you gonna take the locks?" Me, "hell no, they don't need to know I own firearms!" Another member posted about locks being free from a few local sources for him. Such as a bin of locks when walking into a sporting goods store. If I walked into the VA one day and they had a bin of them, no questions asked, I would take a few. But there is no way I'm going to put my name on a piece of paper and send it to a federal administration just for some dang free locks!

October 7, 2014, 11:10 AM	#25
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,813	No, I do not use the VA health care system, even though I am an eligible Viet Nam era veteran. [QUOTE..]So they need to partner with us, so between us, we can make informed decisions...[/QUOTE] This was intended to illustrate their stated point of view. REALITY, is of course, somewhat different. The "local" VA hospital is a 40+ mile trip, one way, and its track record is just above abysmal. Crap, even if free, is still crap! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.