Laser sights reveal shakes?

Travlin · October 15, 2009, 12:08 AM

I've read several threads on the pros and cons of laser sights, especially for self defense. But this issue I haven't seen addressed.

It can be hard enough to hold a handgun steady on the target while relaxed at the range. In a self / home defense situation you are likely to have shaky hands. Maybe not enough to spoil your aim, but more than usual. If you have a laser sight it would be dancing around accordingly.

This could erode your confidence and give courage to the bad guy. Without the dancing light he may not notice your shakes, especially in low light.

I realize this question is stretching it a bit, but I'm curious what you might think.

cbrgator · October 15, 2009, 12:27 AM

I don't know what situation you'd be in where you'd be facing a bad guy an he'd have the time to notice your laser shaking and evaluate you as having low confidence.

Nnobby45 · October 15, 2009, 01:11 AM

One advantage to having a laser is that you can see how much you need to practice your trigger control. Been people who shot fine then got the shakes after it was all over. You don't know how you'll react.

pax · October 15, 2009, 08:48 AM

The laser is an aiming device. It is not an intimidation tool.

If it happens that the sight of the laser dot on his chest intimidates the BG so badly that you don't have to shoot him after all, that's fine. If it doesn't happen that way, it doesn't matter, because that's not the purpose of the laser.

Whether or not the dot wobbles, using a laser "to intimidate" the criminal is likely to cause your body language to tell him that you're not serious and that you probably won't pull the trigger anyway. But if you put a laser dot on his chest as you are in the very act of shooting him, he's going to stop -- one way or the other.

Instead of worrying about the emotional effect your laser dot might have on the criminal, instead consider your own mindset. And watch your body language, because that's what the criminal will be watching.

pax

dav · October 15, 2009, 07:47 PM

I know this comes up over and over. So thank you, pax, for responding once again.

The laser is not intended to be left on. You use it to position your gun where it will hit what you want - then you shoot. If you aren't going to shoot, the laser should not be used at all.

buck9 · October 15, 2009, 08:49 PM

My wife and I use her laser to check grip and stance to get the most steady base to shoot from.

Travlin · October 15, 2009, 10:26 PM

Thanks for all the responses. I didn't have a clear scenario in mind and now that you mention it I'm hard pressed to define one. I haven't used a laser sight and didn't realize you should leave is off until ready to shoot. This was all pretty fuzzy in my mind. I just didn't like the image of that red dot dancing.

Pax: I read your site before. It is excellent, particularly for new shooters of either sex.

TCman · October 20, 2009, 11:42 AM

IMO the laser makes a great intimidation tool.

12GaugeLosAngeles · October 20, 2009, 07:41 PM

If i was drunk out of my ass, near blacking out, and i'm smashing stuff around, i see a laser on me.. i know it's a gun, taser of beanbag from a 12 gauge, so imma stop, so it works... lasers are for off sight shooting, like shooting from the hip.... don't take people's "opinions" as "facts". Example: "Hey dude, you heard a .22 can hit you in the head, travel all the way down to your feet, and then back up before exploding!" OTHER GUY "Cool..."

oldkim · October 20, 2009, 08:22 PM

For anyone that has shot or seen people shoot with a laser - you'll notice almost everyone shakes. Why? Because everyone shakes.

The laser just shows you the amount of movement everyone goes through when sighting in on their target.

If you have a laser or the next time you see a shooter with a laser on the range - sit back and watch. The laser will shake until the shooter zero's in on the target and if they are an experienced shooter you'll see the shaking deminished as the trigger control kicks in.

In a stressful condition we can do the darnest things. Try competing to see what you'll do. Shoot a IDPA or USPSA local match and see if you can handle the stress and see how well you shoot. Yes, this is not the same as for self defense but it is a stress inducing event. You'll also get some good lessons (for free) to shoot better and also to improve your abilities by some true local masters. Another is to do a steel challenge (if one is available around you). You face off side by side with another shooter and shoot at some steel plates - who ever hits all of them first wins. It's one thing to shoot but another to hit what you are aiming for.

*Do know most competitions will not allow lasers.

It's a great training tool and sure it can be used to deter special situations. Everyone has their opinion.

And as for the laser on the chest (leave it for the movies) - unless the BG can see that he/she has a laser on their chest... it's kind of useless isn't it?

Now if you could spray mist or dust to show the laser light and point out the laser on their chest - that's a different situation. In a well lit or semi well lit environment you will not be able to see the laser light and only a small laser dot (depending on distance).

In the dark again that's a different situation... it can be quite an eye opener but the flip side is can you identify what you are shooting at? Is that your wife or kid or BG? In the dark you need a light.

Every situtation is different... the more tools in your bag the better you'll be.

Nnobby45 · October 21, 2009, 02:18 AM

Quote:

.......... lasers are for off sight shooting, like shooting from the hip.... don't take people's "opinions" as "facts".

I shant, my friend, including yours---well, not as a general practice, anyway.

That's not to say it couldn't be used from other positions if necessary.

For myself, it's simply a wonderful, big ol', easy to see, Red Dot---- but a versatile one. Eyes are still good for my age, but not like they used to be.

John Farnum, advocates bringing the gun to eye level and using the laser dot the same way you'd use the sight if you could see it. That's how I practice.

The light (pkg garage? stairwell?) could actually be such that neither the laser nor front sight are at their best. Bringing the gun to a normal shooting position should enable you to get one of the sights on Bubba's hide.

Double Naught Spy · October 21, 2009, 06:45 AM

Quote:

John Farnum, advocates bringing the gun to eye level and using the laser dot the same way you'd use the sight if you could see it. That's how I practice.

And Ken Hackathorn suggests using it from behind cover where your gun can be aimed from one location while your head is peering out from behind cover at arm's length away, not at all lined up.

Six of one, a half dozen of the other.

Nnobby45 · October 21, 2009, 05:33 PM

Quote:

And Ken Hackathorn suggests using it from behind cover where your gun can be aimed from one location while your head is peering out from behind cover at arm's length away, not at all lined up.

That's why I described the laser as a versatile tool--- but it won't be Hackathorn, Farnum, Nnobby45, or Double Naught who determines the circumstances under which it will have to be used. If you can use it from behind cover without exposing yourself, that would just fine. I'd prefer heading for cover any time it's there--laser or no laser.

If I had to deal with the matter where I stand, then I'd prefer eye level (or there abouts).

We're kicking the subject around as though it needs to be one way or the other without re: to different circumstances that would require different deployment.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Double Naught Spy · October 21, 2009, 07:40 PM

You completely missed the point. I wasn't suggesting in any form that a laser sight should be used in a given manner. You invoked a big name guy that had one idea. I simply invoked another big name guy to show how readily big name opinions can vary.

w_houle · November 1, 2009, 11:37 AM

Never tried a laser sight, but already know that my hands shake a fair amount. Ignore the the minor irregularities and look at the big picture, you will see that a regular pattern arises. If you don't have time to notice, then it most likely wouldn't affect the outcome of the shot. If you do have time to notice, then it would be similar to timing your breathing.

kraigwy · November 1, 2009, 12:38 PM

In my opinion the laser sight is the best thing in the world for dry firing. You can see whats going on, what you are doing wrong, etc.

I know that after a good heavy session of dry firing using a laser my groups tighten up quite a bit, using either the iron sights or lasers.

People always seem to forget, that with a laser, you still have your iron sights. Nothing has changed except an extra tool to use or not use on your firearm.

**OldMarksman** · November 1, 2009, 02:10 PM

Quote:

In my opinion the laser sight is the best thing in the world for dry firing. You can see whats going on, what you are doing wrong, etc.

Agree 100%!

zombieslayer · November 1, 2009, 10:19 PM

My moms S&W 642 came with Crimson Trace grips. We both loved the laser for practicing trigger control. She doesn't ever even switch it on, except to practice. The little .38 is scary accurate. Cool thread, I always tell people how good a practice tool a laser can be. I put one on a PF9 and actually shot an OK goup @ 15 yards!

Stevie-Ray · November 2, 2009, 06:00 PM

I've noticed one thing about LASERs. You can certainly pick out the coffee drinkers.

dondavis3 · November 2, 2009, 06:20 PM

I love my laser gripped Kimber.

And my wife likes her Glock 26 with laser

Man it does show how much my hand shakes.

But as you learn to time and squeeze off your shots, you can do it from your waist .

Or around a pole (I guess - I haven't done that yet

but I'm sure you can do it.

Laser shooting is great if you like it.

My shooting buddy sees how well I can do it and for the life of him he can't get the hang of it so he's gonna sell his Crimson Trace that he got for his Springfield .45.

So I guess it's good for some and not for othgers.

October 15, 2009, 12:08 AM	#1
Travlin Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: Upper Midwest Posts: 16	Laser sights reveal shakes? I've read several threads on the pros and cons of laser sights, especially for self defense. But this issue I haven't seen addressed. It can be hard enough to hold a handgun steady on the target while relaxed at the range. In a self / home defense situation you are likely to have shaky hands. Maybe not enough to spoil your aim, but more than usual. If you have a laser sight it would be dancing around accordingly. This could erode your confidence and give courage to the bad guy. Without the dancing light he may not notice your shakes, especially in low light. I realize this question is stretching it a bit, but I'm curious what you might think.

October 15, 2009, 08:48 AM	#4
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	The laser is an aiming device. It is not an intimidation tool. If it happens that the sight of the laser dot on his chest intimidates the BG so badly that you don't have to shoot him after all, that's fine. If it doesn't happen that way, it doesn't matter, because that's not the purpose of the laser. Whether or not the dot wobbles, using a laser "to intimidate" the criminal is likely to cause your body language to tell him that you're not serious and that you probably won't pull the trigger anyway. But if you put a laser dot on his chest as you are in the very act of shooting him, he's going to stop -- one way or the other. Instead of worrying about the emotional effect your laser dot might have on the criminal, instead consider your own mindset. And watch your body language, because that's what the criminal will be watching. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

October 15, 2009, 08:49 PM	#6
buck9 Member Join Date: April 24, 2009 Posts: 89	Our laser My wife and I use her laser to check grip and stance to get the most steady base to shoot from.

October 20, 2009, 11:42 AM	#8
TCman Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Location: Indiana Posts: 514	IMO the laser makes a great intimidation tool. __________________ Il keep my freedom, my guns, and my money. You can keep the change.

October 20, 2009, 08:22 PM	#10
oldkim Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 462	Laser.... For anyone that has shot or seen people shoot with a laser - you'll notice almost everyone shakes. Why? Because everyone shakes. The laser just shows you the amount of movement everyone goes through when sighting in on their target. If you have a laser or the next time you see a shooter with a laser on the range - sit back and watch. The laser will shake until the shooter zero's in on the target and if they are an experienced shooter you'll see the shaking deminished as the trigger control kicks in. In a stressful condition we can do the darnest things. Try competing to see what you'll do. Shoot a IDPA or USPSA local match and see if you can handle the stress and see how well you shoot. Yes, this is not the same as for self defense but it is a stress inducing event. You'll also get some good lessons (for free) to shoot better and also to improve your abilities by some true local masters. Another is to do a steel challenge (if one is available around you). You face off side by side with another shooter and shoot at some steel plates - who ever hits all of them first wins. It's one thing to shoot but another to hit what you are aiming for. Do know most competitions will not allow lasers. It's a great training tool and sure it can be used to deter special situations. Everyone has their opinion. And as for the laser on the chest (leave it for the movies) - unless the BG can see that he/she has a laser on their chest... it's kind of useless isn't it? Now if you could spray mist or dust to show the laser light and point out the laser on their chest - that's a different situation. In a well lit or semi well lit environment you will not be able to see the laser light and only a small laser dot (depending on distance). In the dark again that's a different situation... it can be quite an eye opener but the flip side is can you identify what you are shooting at? Is that your wife or kid or BG? In the dark you need a light. Every situtation is different... the more tools in your bag the better you'll be. __________________ "Shoot Safetly, Shoot Often and Share Your Sport." Jim Scoutten, Shooting USA Check out my new website: www.shootonthemove.org Last edited by oldkim; October 20, 2009 at 08:25 PM. Reason: adding more comment and spell check... oops*

October 15, 2009, 12:27 AM	#2
cbrgator Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2009 Posts: 135	I don't know what situation you'd be in where you'd be facing a bad guy an he'd have the time to notice your laser shaking and evaluate you as having low confidence.

October 15, 2009, 01:11 AM	#3
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	One advantage to having a laser is that you can see how much you need to practice your trigger control. Been people who shot fine then got the shakes after it was all over. You don't know how you'll react.

October 15, 2009, 07:47 PM	#5
dav Member Join Date: October 13, 2002 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 87	I know this comes up over and over. So thank you, pax, for responding once again. The laser is not intended to be left on. You use it to position your gun where it will hit what you want - then you shoot. If you aren't going to shoot, the laser should not be used at all.

October 15, 2009, 10:26 PM	#7
Travlin Member Join Date: February 13, 2009 Location: Upper Midwest Posts: 16	Thanks for all the responses. I didn't have a clear scenario in mind and now that you mention it I'm hard pressed to define one. I haven't used a laser sight and didn't realize you should leave is off until ready to shoot. This was all pretty fuzzy in my mind. I just didn't like the image of that red dot dancing. Pax: I read your site before. It is excellent, particularly for new shooters of either sex.

October 20, 2009, 07:41 PM	#9
12GaugeLosAngeles Junior member Join Date: October 5, 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 81	If i was drunk out of my ass, near blacking out, and i'm smashing stuff around, i see a laser on me.. i know it's a gun, taser of beanbag from a 12 gauge, so imma stop, so it works... lasers are for off sight shooting, like shooting from the hip.... don't take people's "opinions" as "facts". Example: "Hey dude, you heard a .22 can hit you in the head, travel all the way down to your feet, and then back up before exploding!" OTHER GUY "Cool..."

October 21, 2009, 07:40 PM	#14
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	You completely missed the point. I wasn't suggesting in any form that a laser sight should be used in a given manner. You invoked a big name guy that had one idea. I simply invoked another big name guy to show how readily big name opinions can vary. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

November 1, 2009, 11:37 AM	#15
w_houle Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2007 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 1,391	Never tried a laser sight, but already know that my hands shake a fair amount. Ignore the the minor irregularities and look at the big picture, you will see that a regular pattern arises. If you don't have time to notice, then it most likely wouldn't affect the outcome of the shot. If you do have time to notice, then it would be similar to timing your breathing. __________________ How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished?

November 1, 2009, 12:38 PM	#16
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	In my opinion the laser sight is the best thing in the world for dry firing. You can see whats going on, what you are doing wrong, etc. I know that after a good heavy session of dry firing using a laser my groups tighten up quite a bit, using either the iron sights or lasers. People always seem to forget, that with a laser, you still have your iron sights. Nothing has changed except an extra tool to use or not use on your firearm. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

November 1, 2009, 10:19 PM	#18
zombieslayer Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 3,198	My moms S&W 642 came with Crimson Trace grips. We both loved the laser for practicing trigger control. She doesn't ever even switch it on, except to practice. The little .38 is scary accurate. Cool thread, I always tell people how good a practice tool a laser can be. I put one on a PF9 and actually shot an OK goup @ 15 yards! __________________ "An angry prophet, denouncing the hypocrisies of our time"

November 2, 2009, 06:00 PM	#19
Stevie-Ray Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: The shores of Lake Huron Posts: 4,783	I've noticed one thing about LASERs. You can certainly pick out the coffee drinkers. __________________ Stevie-Ray Join the NRA/ILA I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.

November 2, 2009, 06:20 PM	#20
dondavis3 Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2009 Location: Dallas / Fort Worth Area Posts: 678	I love my laser gripped Kimber. And my wife likes her Glock 26 with laser Man it does show how much my hand shakes. But as you learn to time and squeeze off your shots, you can do it from your waist . Or around a pole (I guess - I haven't done that yet but I'm sure you can do it. Laser shooting is great if you like it. My shooting buddy sees how well I can do it and for the life of him he can't get the hang of it so he's gonna sell his Crimson Trace that he got for his Springfield .45. So I guess it's good for some and not for othgers. __________________ Don Davis