Scenario: What would you do?

[pbarrick]

Leave the area. Call the cops. Your job as a citizen is to report crime, not stop it--unless you are the one being assaulted or know the person being assaulted and are willing to intervene.

Survival is the goal here, guys, not trying to relive your favorite episode of [fill in name of your favorite '80's action TV show]. If it doesn't play as well in reruns, how do you think it will play in court?

[Double Naught Spy]

Master Blaster and others, I do agree that there is no reason in starting a gun fight over a few dollars of somebody else's money. And, I would definitely put the lives of my family and myself before those of complete strangers. I would not want to START a gunfight if I didn't have adequate cover.

However, it should be pointed out that the gunfight would never be over protecting somebody else's money. Contrary to very popular opinion, espeically by those who think compliance is the answer to getting out of crimes safely, once the bad guy produced a weapon and threatened the employee, robbery only becomes the minor goal of his actions and catalyst for putting him and the employee in the same situation. At that point, it IS a life and death situation. The bad guy has the means, opportunity, and ability, plus has expressed the will to kill the employee. Robbery is no longer consequential to the situation in terms of evaluating whether or not you should act.

Besides, how do you really know robbery is the intent? Like some other murders, maybe this is being staged to look like a robbery gone bad to hide the fact that somebody wanted the employee killed.

Also, even if it is just a robbery at that point, who is to say the bad guy won't still off the employee once he gets the money or won't turn and start blasting the crowd? For some reason, many people who are into compliance feel that a robbery is a form of contractual situation whereby the robber is obligated to let you live if you give what is requested. Sure, some robbers will then split, but in about 10-12% of the time, they go ahead and shoot people anyway and the people shot are not always the clerks, but may be other customers (the statistic is supposedly FBI data presented in one of the documentary detective shows on Discover or TLC). In at least two case I have seen from video tapes, the robber gets the goods, exits the store, then runs back in like he forgot something and what he forgot was to cap a couple of the folks in the store. After doing so, he then leaves again.

Once threats are made and a weapon produced, the situation really is no longer about robbery, is it?

[Spectre]

If the place has recently been robbed 3 times without anyone getting shot, what makes you to think there will be shooting this time?

Robbery, by definition, places the victim in fear for his life. Had I a clear shot, absent other data that could influence, shot would be taken.

[Yelf]

Ironically this near exact scenario happned to my sister in law. She worked at Pizza Hut (Hit) and was robbed at gunpoint. He was yelling and waving a gun around, next thing she knows PD rolls up in the parking lot and the guys says "I'm busted" drops the gun and walks out with his hands up. Unknown to the employees a customer slipped out the door called the police and they arrived in time to catch the guy in the act.
No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.
You never know maybe the guy pointing the gun at the clerk is actually pointing his gun at a bad guy in the back and you shot him only to find out he was a off duty cop or even better you shoot the guy and someone in the restaurant shoots you.

[LiveWire]

Walk up to the BG and say, while pointing a finger at the floor: "Careful! Don't slip on the anchovy." When he looks down in confusion, connect a right hook to his jaw.

Alternative outcome: The expression "You need it like you need a hole in the head" suddenly loses its colloquial appeal.





Chris...

To protect my life. Not anyone else's.

Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you? Have a heart, dude!

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house.

[Christopher II]

Is that how much other people's lives are worth to you?

Pretty much. Not to say that I don't value the lives of strangers, I just value their lives a lot less than I value mine.

Have a heart, dude!

I have one, it's sitting on my mantlepiece in a jar even as we speak. The trick is not let one's heart override one's brain. Seriously, are you truly willing to risk your life, your freedom, and the twenty to fifty thousand dollars it will cost you to defend yourself against an automatic homicide charge, all for a total stranger? If you are, well, okay. Just be aware of what is at stake.

I would first seek cover; then, from behind it, I'd instruct BG in a loud voice to drop his weapon. If he didn't, I'd drop him.

Please don't do this; it's an excellent way to get the cashier or yourself shot. If the BG has a gun out, and you're determined to intervene, don't waste time with a verbal challenge.

Look at it on the bright side. Even if you DID get canned (and who says you will?) you're looking at a lifetime supply of free pizza, delivered directly to you cell; compliments of the house.

Yeah, you might be able to trade the pizza to your cellmate to maintain the sanctity of your tight little booty!

- Chris

[LiveWire]

You might be able to trade the pizza to your cellmate to maintain the sanctity of your tight little booty!

Not if he knows what's good for him. They call me "Gorilla"!

[eotp]

Think of the person behind the cash register as your beloved son or daughter. Now, tell me what you would do. Would you really rely on the mercy of some guy (who may be a gang member, strung out on crack or other drug, etc) who is holding a gun pointed at your child?

I practice and carry mainly in order to protect my loved ones if a need ever arises that requires a lethal response. In a scenario like the one described, the person behind the cash register becomes my loved one (at least for that instant).

[Gunter]

Now lets see...

Statistics say that one in four (25%) of cooperating victims are injured in the US.

By pointing the gun, the BG has actually said that he is not willing to shoot the clerk (yet). If he wanted to shoot somebody, he would have done so straight away. Maybe he just doesn't want to find out how to open the cash drawer (there have been clerks killed by nervous robbers because they forgot how to open the register - most now have a special "no sale" type key).

Move to cover, asess the situation. Has anybody else noticed? Is anybody suspiciously watching the robbery? Any other BGs (they do tend to move in packs)? Does anybody look likely to start screaming when you produce your piece? Or make them aware of the robbery, for that matter?

Attempting to shoot the BG comes only after I am behind cover and reasonably sure of the shot and what is beyond.

If there is some shooting, I would not follow a BG outside the shop. And I would be sure to make the 911 call myself and give a good description of myself to avoid getting shot by the responding officer(s).

[Spectre]

No self deputized hand cannon action needed.
I say leave the society protection to the police or get deputized and trained to handle close combat situations.
CCW does not give you the right/permission to do the police's job.

Actually, the Supreme Court has ruled it is not the responsibility of the police to prevent crime, just to investigate it. The POLICE are not trained to handle "close combat situations"*. By definition, "combat" is reserved for the armed forces, and thinking you have any clue about CQB/MOUT after cursory training for a PD is a good route to a purty pine box.

*With the possible exception of some SWAT/SRT-type units, and the Constitutionality and advisability of what is essentially pure combat training to these "peace officers" is another debate altogether.

[Soujurn]

The first order of the day is to go home safe and get your loved ones home safe.
Inserting yourself into a situation where you may not know all the facts is fool hardy to say the least.
As heartless as it may sound, if a store or restaurant clerk is not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene. My life is precious to me and to my family and I won't risk it for strangers.
The sad truth is that these things happen so fast, and unless you are mentally prepared at all times to aggressively counter them, you most likely will just end up with shots being thrown around.
This can lead to the deaths of the people you are trying to save.
Use your cell phone to call the police. If they screw up and someone gets killed, they have very deep pockets and a string of legal aid to deal with it. How many of you have the same resources? Yet you want to act like police.

[OF]

not my child, spouse, sibling, parent, niece or nephew I am not going to intervene.

Fine. But don't expect anyone to intervene on their behalf in your stead, either.

I believe that what goes around comes around. I let people into traffic in front of me every time anyone asks to be let in. My wife comments on how I always seem to be let into traffic whenever I need to be. I let people in because I appreciate being let in.

I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.

- Gabe

[Spectre]

Hooah! I hear ya, Gabe.

[eotp]

I hope that if my family were in danger, someone with the power to do so would intervene on their behalf. It would be rude and cowardly of me not to be prepared to do the same for someone else's family if put in the position.

Very well said.

Sounds like a practical application of the Golden Rule to me.

Gabe, your neighbors are blessed.

[Yelf]

And if the person doing the intervening accidently shoots and kills your loved one?

[Spectre]

Y' know, there's a "what if" for everything. Your responses seem to show a distinct bias against legal self-defence, as well as marked elitist tendencies. Are you uncomfortable around defensive tools? If so, do you know why? As with any unreasonable feeling, understanding there is a problem is the first step to resolving it.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Do a search on Google or your favorite search engine of choice for "Kentucky Fried Chicken, Kilgore,TX., and robbery kidnapping homicide" around September of 1983.

I was living in the area when 5 people were abducted from the restaurant during a robbery gone bad; they were driven across a county line and executed with a bullet to the back of the head and another to the back by persons believed to be 3 in number. Total take may have been $400, US$. Still 'unsolved', but this month there are possibly persons linked, perhaps reliably to the crime.

I was driving past the location at the approximate time this took place. It deeply affected the community and divides it to this day.

If I were in a business...any business...knowing what I do now...knowing that I could be harrassed by the perp's 'family' for offing the little goblin before he pops the pizza boy...

I'd take the little bastard out immediately without saying a word and sleep great that night and every night after that, knowing I had done the right thing.

Regards,
Rabbit.

To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. - Confucius, Analects, c.400 b.c.

[Spectre]

Thanks.

FWIW, I reckon I have to look in the mirror every day, and I want to like what I see. (Hey, no wise cracks!)

[Yelf]

Spectre-
Those "what-if's" are things that every person should consider before using deadly force in any situation. Otherwise, its a sure way to find yourself in a "pine box" or a barred room.
You don't know me, don't act like you do after reading 2 messages. Personal attacks do nothing to boost your argument.

[Spectre]

"If you shoot it, you bought it." If there is no clear shot, no shot should be taken unless (perhaps) there is nothing to lose- i.e. it is a given that the innocent will be taken out, regardless.

There is a proud history of individual action and responsibility in America. It is deeply ingrained into our national identity. Those who do their homework know that the committed amateur is often more skilled in the US than the avg LEO. Follow your conscience, and thankfully, others will follow theirs.

Remember, if we left things to the "professionals", we would have no need to pay any attention to the politicians...

[Peetmoss]

I have read through this whole thread and it's alot to think about. Not sure what I would do. I also think that anyone who says they know what they would do is full of it, unless they have expierenced this situation previously. I also am not sure of the legality of the whole situation either.

And what about civil suits? This secnario made me think of a story told to me during my basic safety class required for my permit. A local liqour store owner who had been robbed previously decieded to get a pistol and permitt to defend himself at his store. He was robbed at gunpoint sometime after he abtained his weapon. During the robbery he was fired at twice both shots missed. He proceeded to return fire and killed the BG. He was arrested for Manslaughter witch was dissmissed almost immiadtly. Now I bet you guys are thinking all good right well WRONG. He was then sued by the BG's family for killing there son. The BG's family won the lawsuit because the store owner failed to warn the BG he was going to shoot him. I don't know about all of you guys but I am a measly public servent that can't afford to pay some BG's family hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just something to think about.

[ninenot]

Ah, one could make the argument that a weapon pointed at somebody's head is an immediate threat of grave bodily harm or life endangerment. Thus, the duty is to find the 'holy ground' in the restaurant, draw, and announce to the perp that he ought to stop or be dropped.

That being said, there's also the possibility that one could herd the other patrons out of the joint, call 911, and leave the clerk to his own devices. In all likelihood, there will not be a shooting--most armed robberies are 'no shots fired' events.

ANALYSIS: Stopping the BG is the better action. When he is stopped, there is NO possibility of harm to ANYONE. Herding the 10 others out leaves the clerk defenseless, and possibly hurt or dead. However, the obligation to stop the BG carries the requirement that, to the maximum extent possible, YOU are certain that you can STOP him and NOBODY gets hurt.

They are all tough cases.

[sarbuck]

chances are he's out on bail.a majority of bg's are.you are in fear of the boy's life,your life ,and 10 other people's lives.shoot him dead.do not wound him.there may even be a reward on him.What if the cops had picked up the maryland terroists the first time they stopped them?maryland by the way is one of the stricter gun control states,of course so is wash dc.go figure.sarbuck

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Oh, by the way:

I saw your post on this this thread Navy Joe. Unfortunately it, along with my previous response was deleted during the server follies.

A word for you, sir.
HUZZAH!

Regards,
Rabbit.

[pdmoderator]

If within 10 feet, blast BG with OC at 5 million Scoville.

- pdmoderator