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March 26, 2012, 12:17 AM | #51 | |||||
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As the laws of a number of States now do, Florida law provides for immunity from criminal prosecution and from civil suit for someone who uses force in justified self defense. See 776.032: The difficulty is that there will always be some threshold questions to be decided before it can be determined whether or not immunity applies. Immunity only applies when the use of force meets all the legal requirements for justification. In Florida, as provided under 776.032, that would mean that the defendant's use of force was, "...as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031..."; and each of those statutes has conditions that must be satisfied for there to be a finding of justification. If the DA agrees that someone's use of force was justified, that would resolve at least the criminal side of things. Issues, however, arise when the DA thinks someone's use of force was not justified. If there is that fundamental disagreement, there needs to be a way to resolve it. Ordinarily, that would be done at a trial, as described above, in post 16, under "I. How Pleading Self Defense Works." Florida has established a slightly different procedure. In Dennis v. State, 51 So.3d 456 (Fla., 2010), the Supreme Court of Florida ruled: And in Peterson v. State, 983 So.2d 27 (Fla. App., 2008), referred to by the Florida Supreme Court, the appellate court ruled: Based on these seminal Florida court decisions, if a defendant is charged with a crime (or, it would appear, sued) based on a use of force, and if the defendant claims justification as his defense, instead of raising self defense as an affirmative defense at trial --
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Were that the case, there would be some major problems under Due Process and it would be completely inconsistent with the Presumption of Innocence so firmly embedded in our criminal law.
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March 26, 2012, 05:59 AM | #52 |
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Frank; no argument about immunity for a justified self defense shooting, as it should be.
I believe the problem comes from proof your shooting is justified. How about a police officer? Can someone ambush a cop, shoot him in the head, call 911 and state the officer threatened him unjustifiably, that he felt his life was in danger? On the scene there's no witnesses, no video, just signs of a struggle between the two.... Should the shooter be arrested and taken before a judge, or released at the scene since there's little evidence other than what's previously stated? The dead cop can't talk and the shooter claims self-defense..... What ya think? |
March 26, 2012, 08:37 AM | #53 |
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Carry, It would seem that your line of thinking hasn't come to fruition enuff to be an issue in Fla as of yet.
I just do not here about shootings that later were found to "set ups" to use SD as grounds. Things the defendant has to articulate is what did he fear that the others in society would fear? At what point in conflict did def. determine use of force was needed and why that point in time. If the def. acted sooner or harsher than a typical person, why? What was the "disparity of force" that made the def. feel more threatened or sooner than a "typical" person... For instance, as a kid I was always smallest in each grade I attended. If I needed to defend myself I had to unleash a fury and immediately gain the upper hand 'cuz if this scrap went on long, the heavier taller opponent would easily gain the upper hand. Now that I have a screwed up "strong side" left arm and numerous other "old injuries", I simply cannot physically defend myself against most any determined adult... Heck... Most of our wives could whoop me if they really wanted to... I just ain't willing to find out how easily I break in half... Brent |
March 26, 2012, 09:40 AM | #54 | |
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With respect, it always intrigues me as to why some have the idea that murdering a police officer is somehow worse then murdering anyone else. Your stated 'police officer' scenario should be investigated, facts gathered and if need be, prosecuted the same as any other shooting. Course, I also feel the penalty for proven murder should be extreme, no plea bargaining, no immunity and the penalty applied across the board for whomever the murderer or victim was. No exceptions. Sadly, we have people in this country sitting in prisons doing more time for traficking in marijuana then murder....that's another discussion. IMO, what it boils down to in any SD shooting is the fact that 'the shooter has to prove he/she is justified in the shooting'. This is nothing new. Has been that way as long as I can remember and I don't know of any new laws changing that fact. |
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March 26, 2012, 10:14 AM | #55 | |
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March 26, 2012, 10:19 AM | #56 | |
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And remember that even though the shooter's testimony is evidence, it will be considered in light of factors relating to his credibility, e. g., his demeanor, reputation for veracity, and consistency with other evidence.
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March 26, 2012, 11:20 AM | #57 |
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Good answers I believe..... I also believe the death of anyone should be treated the same.....
My question was to "baseline" such an opinion amongst others. This is a sensitive subject amongst everyone right now for sure. |
March 26, 2012, 03:07 PM | #58 | |
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Too many times we are guilty of condemning/convicting a person publicly based on whats said in the media without having all the facts. There was a discussion here on TFL recently about a carryout worker in Ohio that shot a robber in the store, chased a second BG out of the store, came back in and shot the first robber again. Now the only thing we knew was what the media had put out and that the GJ had enough evidence to summons the shooter to the GJ....but as I read some of the posts, you would have thought there was a tape somewhere of this store clerk coming back in and blatantly shooting the shot BG again for no reason. And to top things off, AFAIK ,there had never been a statement released to the press from the store clerk as to his side of the story. Enough evidence to send someone to the GJ does not always(and often doesn't) constitute guilt of anything. Again, we need to be really careful about claiming someones innocents/guilt based on media propaganda. Every now and then they don't have all the facts before they start broadcasting. |
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March 26, 2012, 03:38 PM | #59 | |
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March 26, 2012, 03:50 PM | #60 | |
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While the letter of the law regarding murder of a police officer may be the same as murder of anyone else, when such an event occurs the police are more likely to give it their full and undivided attention and the perpetrator of the crime is likely to recieve a harsher punishment when caught and convicted. |
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March 26, 2012, 03:54 PM | #61 |
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Webley; all true.....
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March 26, 2012, 04:27 PM | #62 | |
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I will also add that, generally speaking, that violent assault or murder of a police officer, deputy, etc, is considered a crime against society, because, the LEO, as a representitive of the society he serves, was the victim. This is why that a crime against an officer carries a stronger punishment. Or at the very least, this is what I was told years back in the academy, and have understood since then. |
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March 26, 2012, 05:42 PM | #63 |
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Very true Weblymkv and Fishing_Cabin .
Although I'll further add that ANY murder is an assault against society and the murderer when found guilty should be dealt with on an equal and the harshest of terms as to never have the opportunity to commit murder again. A life should never be based on ones status in life, as sadly, it often is in our society. The lives of my loved ones, three(and soon to be four) of which are in LE, all mean the same to me. |
March 26, 2012, 08:59 PM | #64 |
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Frank Ettin,
If Zimmerman qualifies for immunity against civil actions under the SYG law, would that immunity extend to the homeowners' association that Martin's family has announced plans to sue? |
March 26, 2012, 09:05 PM | #65 | |
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March 26, 2012, 09:06 PM | #66 | |
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March 27, 2012, 03:26 PM | #67 |
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Throughout this thread, the staff asked that discussion concentrate on the Stand Your Ground law, not the Zimmerman case. Those requests were repeatedly defied.
The facts on the case are not in, and even if they were, this is a potential emotional minefield. We will not be discussing it now, or at any point in the near future.
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