February 14, 2013, 11:53 PM | #1 |
Junior member
Join Date: February 10, 2009
Posts: 974
|
targets and aiming points
here is a question, i was perusing the magazine rack and saw the latest recoil magazine target bundle. lots of stupid crap in it. hard to read the targets but the one that has me offed is
the one were they teach you to shoot at the genitals and hip bones of the target. since when has that been considered a frist line target? |
February 14, 2013, 11:58 PM | #2 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
|
It isn't the genitals that you are targeting, it is the pelvic bone. A shot to the pelvis is almost instantaneously disabling, but it not a reliable threat stopper.
There are not many instances in which this knowledge is useful because it is never a primary target. However, if you do find yourself in a gun battle, any hit is better than no hit. A shot to the pelvis that anchors your assailant would allow you to escape more easily. |
February 15, 2013, 12:51 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 22, 2005
Location: USA The Great State of California
Posts: 2,090
|
If the target wears armor, then another target other than COM is advisable. The head can wobble, is small and might be a poor substitute. The hips, on the other hand, are pretty stable and offer a larger target than the head. A good hit on the pelvic bone can drop the BG and disable him.
__________________
Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides. |
February 15, 2013, 11:27 AM | #4 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq
Posts: 106
|
Correct
The old presidente or mozambique drills used to teach two to the chest and one to the head if they are still standing. The problem with the head shot in the real world is that as stated the head is small and moving AND it isnt the best show stopper with a handgun. The pelvic girdle shot gives you a much bigger target and its not moving around unless your opponent is a hawiian Hula girl. I dont know why the magazine would say shoot at the genitals . damn that hurts thinking about it |
February 15, 2013, 11:46 PM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
|
I can testify from personal experience that one 9mm round, COM to a subject wearing a vest, is a SERIOUS blow. It may be less than likely to kill. But it may certainly knock the wind out, render an arm temporarily useless and/or make the subject feel as if he's about to die. It would certainly give the shooter a "time to run away" advantage, or if the situation dictates, take more careful aim.
Sgt Lumpy - n0eq |
February 17, 2013, 09:23 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2008
Location: las vegas, NV
Posts: 409
|
or it may have no effect at all. With adrenaline and drugs on board there are people who do not realize they are shot, when not wearing body armor. When wearing armor they wouldn't realize they are shot either until after the action.
I would not rely on a handgun to end a fight with one shot in any situation, period. |
February 18, 2013, 09:49 AM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
|
Or the guy may die from a bee sting.
The point is, my point at least, is that a gun blast, perhaps even a miss, creates a time space. During that time space, you can MOVE, seek cover and concealment, better firing angle, run away etc. The overall goal of any armed encounter is for YOU to become safe. The most ideal way is for you to not become in danger in the first place. Perhaps the "worst" way is for it to end with a dead guy on the ground, you standing over him, in the clear, with a smoking gun. Somewhere between those two extremes are several options. Winning a gun battle is not about "paying back" the thug who had the nerve to accost you. It's about going home to your family. Sgt Lumpy - n0eq |
February 20, 2013, 09:40 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2008
Location: las vegas, NV
Posts: 409
|
I agree with your point that survival is the goal and the rest is inconsequential, but that is not what you said. You stated that a 9mm round into a vest is A serious blow -- "But it may certainly knock the wind out, render an arm temporarily useless and/or make the subject feel as if he's about to die." That statement is wildly optimistic. There are vast number of examles of individuals, both armored and not, continuing to fight after being shot, not realizing they were injured. In other words that hit had zero affect on them.
|
February 21, 2013, 04:14 PM | #9 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
|
Quote:
All for a failure to appear warrant on a $70.55 traffic ticket. No matter how many "crazed crack heads immune to gunfire" stories we can find, firing a gun - ANY gun - in the direction of someone buys you time. Even if that bullet isn't "optimal ballistics" or "Center of mass" or even if it's a miss. That's my optimistic opinion. Sgt Lumpy - n0eq |
|
February 22, 2013, 08:53 AM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Sgt,
Ditto on a 1000 fps 9mm, hitting you center chest! OUCH! A lot to be said for a trauma plate! Attending a lecture by a noted wound surgeon Dr Martin Fackler (think that was his name?) He answered a question on a Police target, that showed an aiming point, one of them being the pelvic bone. He seemed to think as the Pelvic bone is the biggest bone mass, on the body, a bullet would go right through it. No major shock value. Real close, like 10ft! The nose! Now that is a good spot! |
February 22, 2013, 11:31 AM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 5, 2010
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 6,429
|
My half brother was shot with a 9mm in the pelvis, he's 2 inches taller than me at 6'4 and is pretty muscle bound. It was while on duty, that round rocked him and he hit the ground. It was a 9mm FMJ. It didn't shatter or hit the actual bone thankfully. It made a miraculous "C" shape and exited from his back, when he was on the ground he fired on the 2 suspects taking out one as the other fled.
I don't know...I wouldn't aim there. Center of mass. |
February 22, 2013, 03:08 PM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 2, 2012
Location: Currently Erbil, Iraq
Posts: 106
|
Im pretty sure - but i may be wrong
I hope this conversation is about where to go to AFTER you shoot center of mass and the target doesnt go down = as in a bad guy with body armor you always go for center of mass first |
February 22, 2013, 03:14 PM | #13 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
|
Quote:
Sgt Lumpy NREMT-P - n0eq |
|
February 22, 2013, 04:58 PM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 22, 2008
Location: las vegas, NV
Posts: 409
|
Quote:
I agree with everything else you've said. Move, escape, re-eval, and re-engage if needed. I'm just cautioning from the thinking of "I put one in his chest, that should buy me some time." it may, but it sure as hell may not. |
|
February 22, 2013, 05:13 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Posts: 779
|
Quote:
BUT, there aren't really statistics on "She fired and missed and that gained her a second and a half to move to safety". And even if there was, all I'm saying here is - When you shoot, that bullet goes somewhere. WhereEVER it goes, then get the heck away from there. Don't stand there and re-assess whether or not THAT shot eliminated the threat and try to guess if there's Kevlar or if the guy's on drugs or if you should do a pelvic, COM, head shot. Make big noise - Move! That's my suggestion. Sgt Lumpy - n0eq |
|
February 22, 2013, 07:04 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 6, 2012
Location: Southeast Texas
Posts: 1,670
|
Quote:
|
|
February 22, 2013, 07:14 PM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: February 6, 2013
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 98
|
I do not know about shots other than center mass if that shot can be taken. I feel it I ever had to pull a gun, I am going to try to terminate the threat for good.
|
February 22, 2013, 08:48 PM | #18 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 3, 2013
Location: SE Tn
Posts: 122
|
This goes back a year,maybe two...in one of the firearms magazines at B&N. There was an article by a trauma surgeon who worked with the local p.d.If I remember the point correctly,he was observing,as a physician, that the better miss of c.o.m. was the pelvic girdle-extremely painful and loss of mobility.I don't think he ever suggested the pelvis as an aim point.Wonder if this is related?
|
February 23, 2013, 11:30 AM | #19 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Time on target, first you produce a pistol, because of a real threat!
Your pistol is leveled at this threat, single or multiple threats. You fire to protect your life! Now the important TIME ON TARGET! for instantance, two assailants, with knives, at seven yards. Turning your back and moving away, not an option! You aim and fire, then move! Once your pistol is aimed, now the true Time on target starts. With your pistol aimed, you can fire three (for instance) rounds at each of these people, and move. Possibly 3 to 4 seconds! From draw to first shot. You need to be shooting before you move, mayhap a couple of seconds, but fast noises never harmed anyone. |
February 26, 2013, 10:06 AM | #20 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: September 15, 2010
Posts: 1,850
|
Interesting conversation. COM is my goal if I am ever in this situation. I hope that this will stop the threat, yet understand that it may not. Being prepared for whatever happens next, whether that is running, hiding, fighting, or all three will determine the outcome. Having the training and ability to assess and act accordingly is a serious responsibility that cannot be taken too seriously IMO.
Quote:
__________________
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin |
|
February 26, 2013, 04:14 PM | #21 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 12, 2012
Location: Olean, NY
Posts: 375
|
Re: targets and aiming points
Quote:
Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2 |
|
February 28, 2013, 04:45 AM | #22 |
Junior member
Join Date: May 1, 2010
Posts: 5,797
|
Old posts...
The "where to aim" topic pops up often on gun & concealed carry forums.
I'd advise to aim "center mass" the largest deepest section of a human shape target. If, and I mean IF there is a chance the felon or bad guy does not go down(the threat stops), then I would advance to either a headshot or a lower torso/pelvic area shot. Some untrained shooters or concealed carry license holders think the headshot is the best or first place to aim. I disagree. The human head is small & not very thick compared to the center mass of a torso. Hollywood movies & cop shows are not training films. |
February 28, 2013, 07:38 AM | #23 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX
Posts: 12,717
|
Quote:
Quote:
Unless you are using a rifle or have a surgeons near 3-D understanding of anatomy, chances are that if you aim for the "pelvis" that you will not actually get a disabling shot. Like the gut shots supposedly Wyatt Earp claimed as a preferred location of impact for stopping people due to the pain it caused, pelvic region shots can be painful (as if shots elsewhere aren't?), but pistol calibers rarely, very rarely hit the exact structures necessary in the pelvis to cause the structural damage necessary to disable a person's locomotion. In fact, the largest bone of the pelvis, the ilium with its big, sail-like iliac blade, can be punctured without actually breaking or can have pieces broken off without actually causing a failure of the pelvic girdle. On top of all that, the normal person really hasn't a clue as to where to aim on the outside of the clothing with a handgun in order hit a target inside of the body very well, especially one that is moving and not front facing. Shooting at the pelvic region is a decent alternative target, but do not expect physical incapacitation of locomotion to occur like you would get with a shot that severs the spinal cord just because you shoot somebody in the pelvic region. The pelvic region is quite large and structurally capable of handing a lot of insult.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
||
March 1, 2013, 06:58 AM | #24 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
If teaching a class, Police/Security/ or CCW, sitting a manikin, no arms or legs, on a table. Shows by pointing, and giving a guess, on where that round might go. As in what organs sit behind the impact point.
I say might, because from a pistol, bones cause deflection, or even where you aimed, the person moves, that shot has now changed. Seems to me, just my opinion, that firing once, then pausing to see what happens now, is not too bright, and shooting multiple times at an aggressor, can sometimes produce no discernible result, that if, or when, you get in a shooting war with a single individual, your conflict is going to be yours, and yours alone. Like the song says "What ever will be, will be" |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|