A question about the viability of hand (re)loading Less Lethal rounds

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 03:03 PM

GTG

mapsjanhere · December 8, 2009, 03:25 PM

You might be able to do all these things, but consider this: If the round has the same impulse as a regular round that cycles a semi-auto weapon, it also has an energy in the same ballpark to the regular round. At the speeds required, the rubber round behaves like a solid, so it will penetrate and then release the internal metal powder at high speeds, shredding anything in the next couple inches or so. So your non-lethal round is suddenly a very effective man stopper for skinny people.

**Unclenick** · December 8, 2009, 03:46 PM

I had this same conversation with someone wanting to make long-range Simunition loads. When you goose the stuff up enough for the low ballistic coefficient projectiles to hit at long range, they become deadly at short range. Your's will do the same thing. It will be less lethal if it travels far enough to lose enough velocity, though once you've added the powdered metal mass that will have to be an even lower velocity than it was originally less lethal at. In other words, the target will have to be a minimum distance away that might be pretty far. Possibly farther than you can accurately hit with the thing.

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 03:58 PM

GTG

Ronbert · December 8, 2009, 04:00 PM

Nevermind.

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 04:06 PM

Unclenick, what about non-lethal at relatively short range, say 15 meters or less?

Since the round in question is a .45 ACP, I cannot even imagine trying to shoot something with iffy ballistics beyond that range out of a Glock or even a long-slide .45 auto pistol with an extended barrel. Any round is going to have the potential to cause damage, but as I said, I cannot imagine that it would cause anything near what intentionally lethal rounds would.

Hell, if a ****** off mongrel or angry coyote got closer than 5 meters to me, I would be trying to kill it rather than just chase it off!

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 04:16 PM

GTG

mapsjanhere · December 8, 2009, 04:30 PM

CR70, at the speeds of a moving bullet, rubber is just as malleable as copper, which is why you can make a bullet out of it in the first place. Don't forget, the bullet has to survive the launch. Anything that can make your semi-auto work (and I wouldn't try a locked breech gun like a 45 acp but go for a 38 with a simple spring-mass mechanism) will be lethal at quite a range, you just can't change physics. The exception is either a bag type design, but then you have zero penetration and probably only 25 feet or so of effective range, or using a heavy sabot/cup that disintegrates after it leaves the muzzle. But that would be a huge waste of energy.

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 04:47 PM

GTG

Old Grump · December 8, 2009, 05:15 PM

Just my 2 pesos but I believe if he leaves enough outer layer to hold up being fired through a pistol barrel he has turned it into a rubber bullet with a steel or iron core and it will be a lethal round. Skinny or fat that bullet will penetrate flesh, break bones and do some real serious damage. Expect the DA would love it as a slam dunk deadly round purposely made to inflict massive injury. Harold Fish did 10 years just because he used a 10MM with hollow points because the DA said it wasn't a standard police load and was only designed to kill people. He can try it but he better stick to shooting paper and pumpkins with it.

ALS did a lot of work to make that round and it is unlikely he can improve on it without their labs, work shops and ballistics engineering experience. That being said I'd love to see the result of his experiment but he can't use any of my guns to try it out with.

ChicagoRonin70 · December 8, 2009, 05:23 PM

GTG

mapsjanhere · December 8, 2009, 05:41 PM

CR70, I'm pretty sure you can make a tungsten shot filled vectran or kevlar bag that will survive being shot from a 45, maybe in a small plastic capsule to protect the bag from abrasion by the rifling. Impulse for operations is no issue, plenty of energy and fast dissipation for that short range application. They make bags like that for shot guns for riot control. My biggest worry would be feeding the round in a semi-auto, the capsule has to be light enough to break on leaving the muzzle but strong enough to not crack during impact on the ramp and being cramped into the chamber.
You got your work cut out there, good luck.

Don P · December 8, 2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

A question about the viability of hand (re)loading Less Lethal rounds

1 ST question is WHY

If the round has enough powder to go bang and the load is NOT a squib IT WILL PENETRATE the human body. So- not less lethal
Less Lethal Rounds, spit balls,

spring powered pellet pistols

, rocks,

snow balls for those up north

. You get the picture

dmazur · December 8, 2009, 07:42 PM

OK, I looked up "GTG" and see it is game-room slang for "Got To Go".

How can anyone follow the thread if the OP goes back and edits out all of his questions?

This isn't normal practice, is it?

That'll Do · December 8, 2009, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmazur

OK, I looked up "GTG" and see it is game-room slang for "Got To Go".

How can anyone follow the thread if the OP goes back and edits out all of his questions?

This isn't normal practice, is it?

No, it isn't.

Johnny Guest · December 9, 2009, 07:53 AM

CLOSED

December 8, 2009, 03:03 PM	#1
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	A question about the viability of hand (re)loading Less Lethal rounds GTG Last edited by ChicagoRonin70; December 8, 2009 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Asked and answered

December 8, 2009, 03:25 PM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	You might be able to do all these things, but consider this: If the round has the same impulse as a regular round that cycles a semi-auto weapon, it also has an energy in the same ballpark to the regular round. At the speeds required, the rubber round behaves like a solid, so it will penetrate and then release the internal metal powder at high speeds, shredding anything in the next couple inches or so. So your non-lethal round is suddenly a very effective man stopper for skinny people. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 8, 2009, 03:46 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	I had this same conversation with someone wanting to make long-range Simunition loads. When you goose the stuff up enough for the low ballistic coefficient projectiles to hit at long range, they become deadly at short range. Your's will do the same thing. It will be less lethal if it travels far enough to lose enough velocity, though once you've added the powdered metal mass that will have to be an even lower velocity than it was originally less lethal at. In other words, the target will have to be a minimum distance away that might be pretty far. Possibly farther than you can accurately hit with the thing. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

December 8, 2009, 03:58 PM	#4
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	Manstopper for skinny people? Heh! GTG Last edited by ChicagoRonin70; December 8, 2009 at 05:33 PM. Reason: Asked and answered

December 8, 2009, 04:00 PM	#5
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	Nevermind. Last edited by Ronbert; December 8, 2009 at 10:26 PM. Reason: OP withdrew then I will too. Discussion over.

December 8, 2009, 04:06 PM	#6
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	Unclenick, what about non-lethal at relatively short range, say 15 meters or less? Since the round in question is a .45 ACP, I cannot even imagine trying to shoot something with iffy ballistics beyond that range out of a Glock or even a long-slide .45 auto pistol with an extended barrel. Any round is going to have the potential to cause damage, but as I said, I cannot imagine that it would cause anything near what intentionally lethal rounds would. Hell, if a ****** off mongrel or angry coyote got closer than 5 meters to me, I would be trying to kill it rather than just chase it off!

December 8, 2009, 04:16 PM	#7
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	GTG Last edited by ChicagoRonin70; December 8, 2009 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Asked and answered

December 8, 2009, 04:30 PM	#8
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	CR70, at the speeds of a moving bullet, rubber is just as malleable as copper, which is why you can make a bullet out of it in the first place. Don't forget, the bullet has to survive the launch. Anything that can make your semi-auto work (and I wouldn't try a locked breech gun like a 45 acp but go for a 38 with a simple spring-mass mechanism) will be lethal at quite a range, you just can't change physics. The exception is either a bag type design, but then you have zero penetration and probably only 25 feet or so of effective range, or using a heavy sabot/cup that disintegrates after it leaves the muzzle. But that would be a huge waste of energy. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 8, 2009, 04:47 PM	#9
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	GTG Last edited by ChicagoRonin70; December 8, 2009 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Asked and answered

December 8, 2009, 05:15 PM	#10
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Just my 2 pesos but I believe if he leaves enough outer layer to hold up being fired through a pistol barrel he has turned it into a rubber bullet with a steel or iron core and it will be a lethal round. Skinny or fat that bullet will penetrate flesh, break bones and do some real serious damage. Expect the DA would love it as a slam dunk deadly round purposely made to inflict massive injury. Harold Fish did 10 years just because he used a 10MM with hollow points because the DA said it wasn't a standard police load and was only designed to kill people. He can try it but he better stick to shooting paper and pumpkins with it. ALS did a lot of work to make that round and it is unlikely he can improve on it without their labs, work shops and ballistics engineering experience. That being said I'd love to see the result of his experiment but he can't use any of my guns to try it out with. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

December 8, 2009, 05:23 PM	#11
ChicagoRonin70 Junior Member Join Date: December 8, 2009 Posts: 6	GTG Last edited by ChicagoRonin70; December 8, 2009 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Asked and Answered

December 8, 2009, 05:41 PM	#12
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	CR70, I'm pretty sure you can make a tungsten shot filled vectran or kevlar bag that will survive being shot from a 45, maybe in a small plastic capsule to protect the bag from abrasion by the rifling. Impulse for operations is no issue, plenty of energy and fast dissipation for that short range application. They make bags like that for shot guns for riot control. My biggest worry would be feeding the round in a semi-auto, the capsule has to be light enough to break on leaving the muzzle but strong enough to not crack during impact on the ramp and being cramped into the chamber. You got your work cut out there, good luck. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 8, 2009, 07:42 PM	#14
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	OK, I looked up "GTG" and see it is game-room slang for "Got To Go". How can anyone follow the thread if the OP goes back and edits out all of his questions? This isn't normal practice, is it? __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

December 9, 2009, 07:53 AM	#16
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	No reason to leave this open CLOSED