Come get yer beer...

govmule84 · June 18, 2010, 08:20 PM

... the next time you're in Philly. I owe quite a few of you some suds. Over a year ago, I started getting the bug to reload, and due to educational and financial restrictions, I just recently had the funds to purchase the necessary components.

In the meantime I did a lot of reading I would not have done had I not been educated by such a great gang.

Tonight, I loaded my first rounds. (Only five.) I rolled up a starting load of 7.62x54R with 174 gr. MatchKings over 3.1cc of Varget. COAL looks good, and I only did a few because brass is hard to find for that round. (I bought some NORMA stuff, and got paid today, so I can afford another box of 20, but it's not cheap.) I only did five because I have a Lee Loader. Cheap, and slow, but so am I.

I'm going to go shoot them as soon as I am able...but I just wanted to thank you all so much. It is so cool to make something that you cannot buy, and so dang relaxing to just sit there and hum along to the radio and craft - not just crank out , but craft - rounds I will appreciate so much more. Like going to a single shot, it makes you think deep and hard about every shot when you are actually assembling the rounds.

You guys are the best. Look me up for the cold ones.

-Liam

**Unclenick** · June 18, 2010, 09:54 PM

Liam,

Welcome to the hobby, and have fun with that. I shot many a .222 Rem with a Lee Loader and always enjoyed the experience. The portability of the thing let me haul it to the range in an old tackle box, along with some powder in a Tupperware bowl and a box of primers. Having the loader with me meant that if I was unable to get what I'd wanted from the rounds I'd prepared ahead of time, well then I could just reload the cases over again right then and there.

Let us know how your rounds shoot? That cartridge of yours has had quite a number of case makers over the years. Some putting more capacity in the thing than others. I notice QuickLOAD thought your charge of 3.1 CC (42.5 grains, give or take a little for density variation from handling) was a little on the anemic side, but that the Hornady manual thought it was a normal maximum in the Norma case. That might be a matter of case capacity differences? So, if you have trouble getting it to group and the primers still look nice and round shouldered, and maybe the barrel gets a little dirtier than you expected, you can probably think about working up toward 3.4 or 3.5 cc's (47 or 48 grains)? The Lee dipper set is nice to have for those adjustments.

Brian Pfleuger · June 18, 2010, 09:56 PM

3.1cc.... that should be right around 40gr, if I'm figuring that right. Sounds like a nice light load to start. It sure is fun shooting your first ones. My first rifle rounds were just a couple of months ago. It's quite addicting.

I have read of some troubles with getting super accuracy with light loads of Varget, but I don't think it matters much unless you're looking for bench rest competition accuracy.

Have fun with 'em!

TXGunNut · June 18, 2010, 10:25 PM

Welcome to the asylum! Loading is indeed therapeutic; if you're doing it right almost everything else is blocked out. Lining up the finished product is quite gratifying as well. As you now know, it's all tedium and theory until you put it on paper. Hope that goes well but don't be discouraged if results aren't what you expected. Keep on tweaking until you get it right!
After four range trips testing eight loads each I'm still looking for the optimum load for a new rifle. I'm very familiar with this round but the perfect load for this rifle is still eluding me. I've been loading almost thirty years and it's still a challenge, hope it always will be.

govmule84 · June 19, 2010, 05:41 AM

It should be a little anemic, I guess. It's a starting load. But it seemed like a safe place to...uh, start.

The dipper set is handy - I couldn't have run this load without it. The Lee loader only comes with a 2.5 dipper, which would simply be too light for that powder. My powder choice really only came from what I could find at Midway and Cabela's. (I wasn't buying an eight pounder. I will next time, because I know I like doing this now, but not right off the bat.)

I may have get that Hornady manual. Other than NORMA, I have only seen Sellier and Bellot factory-loaded brass. My Lee manual didn't mention anything about case volume, and the little card that comes with the loader has a little "catridge bio" section, and they mentioned that NORMA was the only company making brass. I'm sure that's outdated by now, but I can't seem to find too much info on cases (I have a thread over in the Buy & Sell section looking for brass!)

Thanks again, fellas.

-L.

Brian Pfleuger · June 19, 2010, 08:20 AM

Lapua makes it too, Powder Valley sells it:

http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

It's likely no cheaper than the Norma stuff, but you couldn't get better brass than those two companies.

blu97 · June 19, 2010, 12:13 PM

Lee Loader is a good place to start, I've been using them for a long time.

Buy a good scale when you get a chance, that way you can tailor the loads

to your rifle a little easyer.

govmule84 · June 19, 2010, 03:58 PM

A scale will come. I am married and have a wee one, and like most newly married couples, we ain't rich yet. I'm working on it. For now, the dippers seem to be a fairly inexpensive solution, but as I get serious about load development, I am going to have to invest.

Does anyone try to match both weight AND volume when loading? Or am I being a nitpicky crazy lunatic?

That brass is similarly priced to the NORMA stuff at Midway. I'm sure it's great, but I didn't realize that it is fairly expensive to reload for this caliber given the shortage of actual brass. Given that the Nagant is so cheap, it's something to consider... like buying a cheap car with 800 dollar tires.

I suspect that as we start to shoot up those $84 spam cans, we'll see a great surge in the reloading components available for the 54R.

-L.

Brian Pfleuger · June 19, 2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Does anyone try to match both weight AND volume when loading? Or am I being a nitpicky crazy lunatic?

For any given powder, particularly from the same lot, weight and volume should be in a constant relationship. There would be no reason to measure both because, for example, 3.1cc of Varget will equal (approximately) 42gr and 42gr will be (approximately) 3.1cc. If you know that you have EXACTLY "X" volume then you know that you have exactly "Y" grains, once you've measured it out to get the exact number a few of times. However, lot to lot variations can make this unreliable when you switch from one bottle to another with some powders, so you have to remeasure every time to make sure that the new bottle has the same volume/density as the previous bottle.

Some powder measures measure volumetrically, like the Lee Auto-Disk, and some measure by grains, like the RCBS Chargemaster 1500.

With some powders, volumetric measuring is unreliable because the shape and density of the powder makes getting a consistent volume difficult.

On the other hand, with some powders volumetric measuring has been shown to be MORE consistent, if it's done right.

Either way, measuring by weight is always going to be pretty good so long as the scale is good and used correctly. Volumetric measuring will be good for some powders and not so good for others but typically is more dependent on some level of consistency from the user.

govmule84 · June 19, 2010, 04:27 PM

But let's say I measure volumetrically, then weigh all my charges. Obviously, the scale will be more accurate than the dipper (right?), so wouldn't it be possible to fart around with both methods to get truly exact measures of powder?

-L.

Brian Pfleuger · June 19, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

wouldn't it be possible to fart around with both methods to get truly exact measures of powder?

Not really. You're always going to be fiddling with the margin of error of the two methods. The only way to be "exact" is to get a scale that's much, much more precise. Such a scale probably costs several thousand dollars. Besides, bench rest shooters don't go quite that crazy and some of those guys can shoot groups under 2 inches at 1000 yards.

govmule84 · June 19, 2010, 07:32 PM

Well, I still have a lot to learn about this particular combo. Even with this setup, I still have to play with seating depth, powder charge, and weighing our brass into similarly weighted groups. I probably ought to slug my barrel, too...I've a lot on my plate...and I couldn't be excited-er!

-L.

**Unclenick** · June 21, 2010, 03:52 PM

Actually, you can get basic lab scales that resolve 0.001 grams, which is 0.015 grains and change. $300 for the Acculab VIC123 that Sinclair sells. Gram-only versions with auto-calibration, Faraday shielding and other improvements are more in the $800 range.

troy_mclure · June 21, 2010, 05:30 PM

if you swing by greybeard outdoors ( go2gbo.com ) they have a reloading classifieds over there. you can usualy find once fired 7.62x54 cases as a decent price.

govmule84 · June 21, 2010, 06:02 PM

Who in God's sweet name would pay the extra money for 54R brass, and then not reload it?

What's the point?

-L.

June 18, 2010, 08:20 PM	#1
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	Come get yer beer... ... the next time you're in Philly. I owe quite a few of you some suds. Over a year ago, I started getting the bug to reload, and due to educational and financial restrictions, I just recently had the funds to purchase the necessary components. In the meantime I did a lot of reading I would not have done had I not been educated by such a great gang. Tonight, I loaded my first rounds. (Only five.) I rolled up a starting load of 7.62x54R with 174 gr. MatchKings over 3.1cc of Varget. COAL looks good, and I only did a few because brass is hard to find for that round. (I bought some NORMA stuff, and got paid today, so I can afford another box of 20, but it's not cheap.) I only did five because I have a Lee Loader. Cheap, and slow, but so am I. I'm going to go shoot them as soon as I am able...but I just wanted to thank you all so much. It is so cool to make something that you cannot buy, and so dang relaxing to just sit there and hum along to the radio and craft - not just crank out , but craft - rounds I will appreciate so much more. Like going to a single shot, it makes you think deep and hard about every shot when you are actually assembling the rounds. You guys are the best. Look me up for the cold ones. -Liam

June 18, 2010, 09:54 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Liam, Welcome to the hobby, and have fun with that. I shot many a .222 Rem with a Lee Loader and always enjoyed the experience. The portability of the thing let me haul it to the range in an old tackle box, along with some powder in a Tupperware bowl and a box of primers. Having the loader with me meant that if I was unable to get what I'd wanted from the rounds I'd prepared ahead of time, well then I could just reload the cases over again right then and there. Let us know how your rounds shoot? That cartridge of yours has had quite a number of case makers over the years. Some putting more capacity in the thing than others. I notice QuickLOAD thought your charge of 3.1 CC (42.5 grains, give or take a little for density variation from handling) was a little on the anemic side, but that the Hornady manual thought it was a normal maximum in the Norma case. That might be a matter of case capacity differences? So, if you have trouble getting it to group and the primers still look nice and round shouldered, and maybe the barrel gets a little dirtier than you expected, you can probably think about working up toward 3.4 or 3.5 cc's (47 or 48 grains)? The Lee dipper set is nice to have for those adjustments. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 18, 2010, 09:56 PM	#3
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	3.1cc.... that should be right around 40gr, if I'm figuring that right. Sounds like a nice light load to start. It sure is fun shooting your first ones. My first rifle rounds were just a couple of months ago. It's quite addicting. I have read of some troubles with getting super accuracy with light loads of Varget, but I don't think it matters much unless you're looking for bench rest competition accuracy. Have fun with 'em! __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 18, 2010, 10:25 PM	#4
TXGunNut Senior Member Join Date: January 16, 2010 Location: If you have to ask... Posts: 2,860	Welcome to the asylum! Loading is indeed therapeutic; if you're doing it right almost everything else is blocked out. Lining up the finished product is quite gratifying as well. As you now know, it's all tedium and theory until you put it on paper. Hope that goes well but don't be discouraged if results aren't what you expected. Keep on tweaking until you get it right! After four range trips testing eight loads each I'm still looking for the optimum load for a new rifle. I'm very familiar with this round but the perfect load for this rifle is still eluding me. I've been loading almost thirty years and it's still a challenge, hope it always will be. __________________ Life Member NRA, TSRA Smokeless powder is a passing fad! -Steve Garbe I hate rude behavior in a man. I won't tolerate it. -Woodrow F. Call Lonesome Dove My favorite recipes start out with a handful of used wheelweights.

June 19, 2010, 08:20 AM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Lapua makes it too, Powder Valley sells it: http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ It's likely no cheaper than the Norma stuff, but you couldn't get better brass than those two companies. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 19, 2010, 05:41 AM	#5
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	It should be a little anemic, I guess. It's a starting load. But it seemed like a safe place to...uh, start. The dipper set is handy - I couldn't have run this load without it. The Lee loader only comes with a 2.5 dipper, which would simply be too light for that powder. My powder choice really only came from what I could find at Midway and Cabela's. (I wasn't buying an eight pounder. I will next time, because I know I like doing this now, but not right off the bat.) I may have get that Hornady manual. Other than NORMA, I have only seen Sellier and Bellot factory-loaded brass. My Lee manual didn't mention anything about case volume, and the little card that comes with the loader has a little "catridge bio" section, and they mentioned that NORMA was the only company making brass. I'm sure that's outdated by now, but I can't seem to find too much info on cases (I have a thread over in the Buy & Sell section looking for brass!) Thanks again, fellas. -L.

June 19, 2010, 12:13 PM	#7
blu97 Member Join Date: June 12, 2008 Location: California Posts: 81	beer Lee Loader is a good place to start, I've been using them for a long time. Buy a good scale when you get a chance, that way you can tailor the loads to your rifle a little easyer.

June 19, 2010, 03:58 PM	#8
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	A scale will come. I am married and have a wee one, and like most newly married couples, we ain't rich yet. I'm working on it. For now, the dippers seem to be a fairly inexpensive solution, but as I get serious about load development, I am going to have to invest. Does anyone try to match both weight AND volume when loading? Or am I being a nitpicky crazy lunatic? That brass is similarly priced to the NORMA stuff at Midway. I'm sure it's great, but I didn't realize that it is fairly expensive to reload for this caliber given the shortage of actual brass. Given that the Nagant is so cheap, it's something to consider... like buying a cheap car with 800 dollar tires. I suspect that as we start to shoot up those $84 spam cans, we'll see a great surge in the reloading components available for the 54R. -L.

June 19, 2010, 04:27 PM	#10
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	But let's say I measure volumetrically, then weigh all my charges. Obviously, the scale will be more accurate than the dipper (right?), so wouldn't it be possible to fart around with both methods to get truly exact measures of powder? -L.

June 19, 2010, 07:32 PM	#12
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	Well, I still have a lot to learn about this particular combo. Even with this setup, I still have to play with seating depth, powder charge, and weighing our brass into similarly weighted groups. I probably ought to slug my barrel, too...I've a lot on my plate...and I couldn't be excited-er! -L.

June 21, 2010, 03:52 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Actually, you can get basic lab scales that resolve 0.001 grams, which is 0.015 grains and change. $300 for the Acculab VIC123 that Sinclair sells. Gram-only versions with auto-calibration, Faraday shielding and other improvements are more in the $800 range. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

June 21, 2010, 05:30 PM	#14
troy_mclure Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2008 Location: gulf of mexico Posts: 2,716	if you swing by greybeard outdoors ( go2gbo.com ) they have a reloading classifieds over there. you can usualy find once fired 7.62x54 cases as a decent price. __________________ There is only one tactical principle which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wound, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

June 21, 2010, 06:02 PM	#15
govmule84 Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: Up on a hill Posts: 398	Who in God's sweet name would pay the extra money for 54R brass, and then not reload it? What's the point? -L.