October 23, 2009, 06:21 PM | #126 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Perhaps a higher level of required training, screening, and safe storage requirement would be in order, but to support an outright ban is to undermine the amendment for one of it's primary purposes, the ability of the common man to resist and overthrow a future tyrannical government. TG, would you contend that resisting tyranny is an illegitimate purpose for 2A? If not, how can you reconcile such a disparity in the arms available to accomplish the purpose should the need arise? (for the record, we are nowhere near tyranny, IMO and our democratic institutions are working as they should, unless and until we lose the ability to throw the bums out) |
|
October 23, 2009, 07:57 PM | #127 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
The 2A was insisted upon by the anti-federalists who feared a large standing army AND the unprecendented control given Congress by the COTUS to control the militia. The idea was that with a small standing army and the defense of the nation thus mostly in the hands of large state militias that a tyrant could not oppose such because the state militias would be more powerful than the national army and would serve as a check against tyranny. The anti-fedieralists feared that if the states were not able to arm their militias that the Fed could then disarm them and render them ineffective. Thus the Second Amendment. The historical irony is that in the end the states themselves sold out their militias because their citizens did not want to serve in them and the states did not want to pay for them. Quote:
The historical facts of course are quite different. No such thing (even pre-constitution in the colonies) EVER existed in that manner. Pure fantasy. In fact in the case of Jefferson he later ruefully admitted that the republican ideal of the militia he dreamed of could never be. So back to your question, as far as military weapons (FA et al) if the STATE lawfully formed a militia they could if they chose arm them with such weapons and Congress could not prevent it. The individual may not claim such a right even as a member of the unorganized militia under which one has no rights, duties or responsibilites under the 2A. For more information on the militia, here is a resource: http://www.adl.org/mwd/faq1.asp
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|||
October 23, 2009, 08:43 PM | #128 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Seriously, TG, aren't you the least bit concerned, that over time, let's say a couple hundred more years, that the worst fears of our founders could become a reality? Do you trust government so much that you would allow even the tiniest crack in the dam to go unrepaired? Last edited by maestro pistolero; October 23, 2009 at 08:59 PM. |
|||
October 23, 2009, 08:58 PM | #129 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|||||
October 23, 2009, 09:07 PM | #130 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
October 23, 2009, 11:23 PM | #131 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||||
October 24, 2009, 12:00 PM | #132 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Quote:
Is it really so inconceivable, that over time, the government could cross the line to despotism? Isn't that possibility a primary reason the right was codified in the first place? I just don't see how one can toss that aside without a concern in the world for the freedom of future generations. |
||
October 24, 2009, 12:18 PM | #133 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|||||
October 24, 2009, 01:00 PM | #134 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Last edited by maestro pistolero; October 24, 2009 at 02:06 PM. |
|
October 24, 2009, 03:26 PM | #135 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||
October 24, 2009, 04:31 PM | #136 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2001
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 4,303
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member |
|
October 24, 2009, 05:37 PM | #137 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
October 25, 2009, 09:45 AM | #138 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 17, 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 734
|
TG: How would a group of people organize to remove tyranny in modern day America, (i.e., in your opinion).
Let's assume the voting booth is "out the window' and there is clearly a tyrant attempting to "takeover". Wouldn't the unregulated militia, or State authorities, then be allowed to form well regulated militias? Isn't it really that simple of a concept as far as the founding fathers were concerned? (Sure, those in power would view this "formation of well regulated militias" as rebel activity and try to quash it by force or prison time. But that's how it always is IMHO.) ETA: It appears that you feel there is no non-voting remedy nowadays for ordinary folks to thwart real life tyranny any longer? I say, the 2nd Amendment allows us to form well regulated militias for this purpose. By "us" I mean the unregulated militias. Whether this "formation" is successful depends on how it is received by all of America. But that's how it always is in other similar situations throughout time IMHO. Btw, I would make you the "Duke of NY" because you seem to be an honest, decent guy. There would be others also IMHO. (As to full auto ever becoming a commonly used weapon, that appears to be a red herring argument because the 1934 NFA Act came out reasonably soon after automatic, hand held, weapons were even available. I mean, they were only around for about 15 to 20 years by 1934 weren't they? And they were expensive I assume. [The first Thompson sub-machine gun was manufactured in 1921 and the BAR came out around the time of WWI.].) Last edited by RDak; October 25, 2009 at 10:18 AM. |
October 25, 2009, 09:58 AM | #139 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 16, 2007
Posts: 2,153
|
Quote:
Also, despite it's ongoing presence in the the BOR, TG believes the militia to be a 'dead letter'. "Dead and buried over a hundred years ago", never to be resurrected under any circumstances, except possibly by our trusted state governments, who are apparently not susceptible to any despotic leanings in TG's world. How'd I do? Last edited by maestro pistolero; October 25, 2009 at 10:30 AM. |
|
October 25, 2009, 10:04 AM | #140 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 17, 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 734
|
That's the feeling I get maestro.
I had a similar discussion with TG many months ago and I think he went away with the thought that it might be ok for the unregulated militia to organize their own well regulated militia. You know, with experienced military or LEO personnel as officers, trainers, etc. That appeared to meet with TG's approval but we never went quite that far with our discussion. ETA: But my main question to TG, this time, is whether regular unregulated militia folk are allowed to form well regulated militias pursuant to the 2nd Amendment? I say, on its face, yes. As long as their is a real threat of tyranny. Which is always going to be based on a subjective conclusion of "threat" if you get what I mean. It appears, I may be wrong, that TG feels things have to be objectively obvious before the 2nd Amendment is even triggered in such a situation. That is an impossible standard to ever meet in the real world IMHO. It would be a red herring argument IMHO. I mean, look at our own Revolution. There were many people who remained loyal to Britain. Yet the 2nd Amendment "idea" came out of that struggle IMHO. So, whether you have a tyrant, or not, is always a subjective judgment that each individual has to make IMHO. Last edited by RDak; October 25, 2009 at 10:26 AM. |
October 25, 2009, 11:51 AM | #141 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Wow, these are good questions! I will try to answer as best I can.
Quote:
When I was a student at the Naval War College during the '90s we spent a year trying to figure out who our next conventional enemy would be. We figured Iran and North Korea and we planned how we would beat them. We were wrong of course and terrorism became the next challenge for us to face. So in that vein I think the next "tyranny" that we could possibly face would not be the Nazi/Stalin scenario that so many seem to believe will occur complete with cattle cars and concentration camps. I see political and community apathy being the real danger and so the minority of gun owners would never be able to change that threat with the mere ownership of guns. In other words I cannot see a "tyranny" as many hold out here on TFL that could be opposed by Joe Citizen with a machine gun. Quote:
Nevertheless, the states are allowed to form their militias now. Nothing to stop them. Ever wonder why they don't do it? Even Walter Dellinger agreed with that and I posted links to his comments on that before. The militias died because the states did not want to pay for them, they were ineffective in defending the nation, and citizens did not want to serve in them. The unorganized militia that exists in statute today has no rights, duties, or responsibilities and so is a dead letter in fact as well. It is a mere statutory construct. However the 2A part of the equation was that our nation would be defended by a small standing army with a large state militia system and the 2A was written to keep state control intact over those miltias that the Federalist COTUS had given the Fed large amounts of control over these militias to. The idea was that with a small standing army and a large state militia defending the country the ability of a tryant to take over would not be there since the state militias would not allow them to effect such and would out number the standing army. That dynamic is no more and after the civil war I don't think the state militias could perform those functions.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 25, 2009 at 01:25 PM. Reason: spelling |
||
October 25, 2009, 11:57 AM | #142 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: June 29, 2000
Location: Rupert, Idaho
Posts: 9,660
|
Using the Gentleman's own criteria, using the backdrop of international terrorism, all that would be required would be a nod from your city fathers. Perhaps even the local Sheriff or Police Chief, to form a "reaction" unit to protect the infrastructure and provide a "ready reserve" for the uniformed officers of your area.
Just tossing this to the wind..... |
October 25, 2009, 12:01 PM | #143 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 25, 2009 at 01:24 PM. Reason: spelling |
|||
October 25, 2009, 12:13 PM | #144 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
ETA: Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 25, 2009 at 01:25 PM. Reason: ETA |
||||
October 25, 2009, 02:47 PM | #145 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2001
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 4,303
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member |
|
October 25, 2009, 02:58 PM | #146 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
October 25, 2009, 03:16 PM | #147 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2001
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 4,303
|
Quote:
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member |
|
October 25, 2009, 03:24 PM | #148 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; October 25, 2009 at 03:29 PM. |
|
October 25, 2009, 03:33 PM | #149 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
More on the Militia in the South after the Civil War.
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
October 25, 2009, 03:45 PM | #150 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 15, 2001
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 4,303
|
There is no way that a single State militia could throw off the federal government alone, even back in the 1860's. You say that States grouping their militias together to confront the federal government means they are forming armies and are therefore in violation of the Constitution and illegal.
So what is the purpose of the 2nd Amendment?
__________________
NRA Certified Instructor: Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Safety, Personal Protection, Range Safety Officer NRA Life Member |
|
|