We do we follow the law blindly? - Page 2

NickySantoro · February 20, 2012, 09:16 AM

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. - Thomas Jefferson

MTT TL · February 20, 2012, 12:49 PM

Quote:

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so.

Maybe. What is unjust?

**tyme** · February 20, 2012, 02:08 PM

If someone can articulate a position, and is willing and eager to discuss that position, I think I would put up with almost any amount civil disobedience from them.

If someone is merely parroting tired old talking points, and is unwilling to engage in reasonable discussion, I think they give up the privilege of having their civil disobedience tolerated.

Chris_B · February 20, 2012, 05:23 PM

who's "we"? and who determines 'arguably legal'? Is the original idea here moral justification for breaking laws that are not legally binding, or mere rationalization for doing anything somebody feels like?

MrDontPlay · February 20, 2012, 06:27 PM

I believe that there are laws and that there aregod given rights. I believe that the right to defend yourself is a god given right, some places it is against the law.

Herr Walther · February 20, 2012, 08:15 PM

In some places it is against the law to defend yourself with a firearm. Is that a just law that infringes on the Constitution that should be followed?

Or can/should that be ignored if changes through normal channels cannot be effected?

Suppose someone wants to carry a gun in that jurisdiction for personal protection? Does that fact make that person any more dangerous to you than one who follows the law in another jurisdiction that mandates a permit to exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right?

Odd · February 20, 2012, 10:32 PM

Who is the ideal citizen? Someone who can reason and make moral decisions on his own or the obedient, blindly loyal law abiding citizen who cannot think for himself?

Then there is also the matter of de jure and de facto.

In Mexico, by law, firearms are strictly controlled, however:
From http://www.npr.org/2012/01/28/145996...stance-on-guns

Quote:

The director of a pro-gun website called Mexico Armado said there is no popular movement at the moment to liberalize the nation's gun laws. Perhaps, he added, that's because anybody who wants a weapon in Mexico — be they a good guy or a bad guy — has no problem getting one.

I think of the law as a yoke that domesticates and tames man. Some bear the yoke without a second thought. Others tolerate the yoke but will cast it off when necessary.

Reason for edit: Found better example

BlueTrain · February 21, 2012, 12:53 PM

Alas! Tis not so simple, for such a person would hardly count himself as a citizen of anything, would he? And does it follow that a person who follows the law (and even when there are only ten, it is difficult) is not thinking?

At the same time, I realize that some who are among us do not obey the law at all, if no one is watching.

Doyle · February 21, 2012, 01:53 PM

Quote:

My point is just like owning a gun, I do not use it to shoot innocent people or threaten others, I believe I have the right to keep my gun, some people say it is illegal and should not be promoted, I disagree, the law is the law, my human rights or individual freedom is another point you cannot use the law to judge me.

Dude, you live in China. That means you don't own a gun. Get over it or move out.

Edward429451 · February 21, 2012, 02:39 PM

People do it here just like over there and its from fear to follow the law blindly.

Everyone has an innate desire to be a good guy and stay out of trouble. With guns its the same. If I follow the law and do what they say, perhaps they will leave me alone and let me be with my family...

I better stop there before I offend anyone...

Edward429451 · February 21, 2012, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Dude, you live in China. That means you don't own a gun. Get over it or move out.

Ha! How do you know? He probably has a gun and is scared of all of his friends turning him in from some stupid blind obediance training thing so ponders why...

If they take my guns, I'm going out the next day and replace it and don't say that it can't be had on the black market because anything can for the price.

johnbt · February 21, 2012, 02:48 PM

"Everyone has an innate desire to be a good guy and stay out of trouble."

Everyone? What about the sociopaths and psychopaths? Ever work a psychiatric caseload of any sort? That reminds me of a man I had to evaluate at the old VA state pen on Spring Street, but that story will have to keep for another time.

jimbob86 · February 21, 2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

"Everyone has an innate desire to be a good guy and stay out of trouble."

I know this to false. I have met people who have no desire to meet the kids they ....... fathered would not be accurate ..... begat?

Skadoosh · February 21, 2012, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Although China is no democratic society, it is not as tightly controlled as the Soviet Union.

The Soviet Union hasnt existed since 1991...

Quote:

If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. - Thomas Jefferson

Maybe. What is unjust?

Unjust (Adjective): Not based on or behaving according to what is morally right and fair.

MTT TL · February 21, 2012, 03:57 PM

Quote:

If someone can articulate a position, and is willing and eager to discuss that position, I think I would put up with almost any amount civil disobedience from them.

Too bad you are not a judge. I can make a pretty good argument for the banking system executives being corrupt and unjust therefore I should be able to liberate them of their ill gotten gains.

BlueTrain · February 21, 2012, 04:50 PM

Okay, go ahead. We can form our own little soviet.

MTT TL · February 21, 2012, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Okay, go ahead. We can form our own little soviet.

Running dog capitalist Illuminati exploiting the proletariat to build Ipods for opiated couch potatoes (oh wait that is China... Apple.... whatever

)

Making allowances for nearly everyone with different ideas of what the law should be law is not wise. It is very much the same as blind obedience to the law. Either way you are lying to yourself.

**Tom Servo** · February 21, 2012, 08:23 PM

...and, we're completely off topic.

Whatever that topic was.

February 20, 2012, 02:08 PM	#28
tyme Staff Join Date: October 13, 2001 Posts: 3,355	If someone can articulate a position, and is willing and eager to discuss that position, I think I would put up with almost any amount civil disobedience from them. If someone is merely parroting tired old talking points, and is unwilling to engage in reasonable discussion, I think they give up the privilege of having their civil disobedience tolerated. __________________ “The egg hatched...” “...the egg hatched... and a hundred baby spiders came out...” (blade runner) “Who are you?” “A friend. I'm here to prevent you from making a mistake.” “You have no idea what I'm doing here, friend.” “In specific terms, no, but I swore an oath to protect the world...” (continuum) “It's a goal you won't understand until later. Your job is to make sure he doesn't achieve the goal.” (bsg) Last edited by tyme; February 20, 2012 at 02:26 PM.

February 20, 2012, 06:27 PM	#30
MrDontPlay Senior Member Join Date: December 25, 2010 Posts: 587	I believe that there are laws and that there aregod given rights. I believe that the right to defend yourself is a god given right, some places it is against the law. __________________ Someday I'll be good enough to know if a gun is accurate or not.

February 20, 2012, 08:15 PM	#31
Herr Walther Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2001 Location: A Place Worse than California Posts: 782	In some places it is against the law to defend yourself with a firearm. Is that a just law that infringes on the Constitution that should be followed? Or can/should that be ignored if changes through normal channels cannot be effected? Suppose someone wants to carry a gun in that jurisdiction for personal protection? Does that fact make that person any more dangerous to you than one who follows the law in another jurisdiction that mandates a permit to exercise a Constitutionally guaranteed right? __________________ "It was people who upheld their duties to their office, the constitution, and the public by opposing Hitler who were called traitors" ------------------------------------- "...a historian asked what had happened to the German people for them to accept a criminal government. Unfortunately, nothing needed to happen. In nations across the world people accept government crime." ------------------------------------- "In democracies as well as dictatorships, subordinates illegally obey their rulers. Subordinates who remain true to their oaths of office by opposing their rulers are rare."

February 21, 2012, 12:53 PM	#33
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Alas! Tis not so simple, for such a person would hardly count himself as a citizen of anything, would he? And does it follow that a person who follows the law (and even when there are only ten, it is difficult) is not thinking? At the same time, I realize that some who are among us do not obey the law at all, if no one is watching. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 21, 2012, 04:50 PM	#41
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	Okay, go ahead. We can form our own little soviet. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

February 20, 2012, 09:16 AM	#26
NickySantoro Junior member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Posts: 217	If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. - Thomas Jefferson

February 20, 2012, 05:23 PM	#29
Chris_B Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2007 Posts: 3,101	who's "we"? and who determines 'arguably legal'? Is the original idea here moral justification for breaking laws that are not legally binding, or mere rationalization for doing anything somebody feels like?

February 21, 2012, 02:39 PM	#35
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	People do it here just like over there and its from fear to follow the law blindly. Everyone has an innate desire to be a good guy and stay out of trouble. With guns its the same. If I follow the law and do what they say, perhaps they will leave me alone and let me be with my family... I better stop there before I offend anyone...

February 21, 2012, 02:48 PM	#37
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	"Everyone has an innate desire to be a good guy and stay out of trouble." Everyone? What about the sociopaths and psychopaths? Ever work a psychiatric caseload of any sort? That reminds me of a man I had to evaluate at the old VA state pen on Spring Street, but that story will have to keep for another time.

February 21, 2012, 08:23 PM	#43
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	...and, we're completely off topic. Whatever that topic was. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe