Sporterized Mosin Nagant

Shoebatt · September 10, 2011, 09:16 PM

I have a Mosin Nagant that I picked up that has the bolt handle bent and the fore end of the stock cut and rounded. The rifle has sights equal to a 91/30 but it is slightly smaller that a 91/30. Any ideas?

m.p.driver · September 10, 2011, 09:58 PM

If it started out shorter than a issue 91 it could be a 38,a 44 that someone took the side mounted bayonet off.Or a 91/59 that was shortened by the military from a full size rifle.Since they are so dirt cheap you see more and more of them customized to the shooters taste.The Mosin Nagant forum will give you a heads up on what it started out as.

Cheapshooter · September 10, 2011, 10:31 PM

My 91/59 is so marked on the receiver ring.
Could be someone shortened a 91/30 barrel. Does the front sight look original?

Shoebatt · September 11, 2011, 11:39 AM

The front sight looks like an add on.
I saw an identical one in another store about 15 miles from where I got this one. I read online that there was a gentleman many years ago that modified the 91/30s' including re-chambering in 30 06. ?However, his initials will be marked in the receiver.

Cheapshooter · September 11, 2011, 11:59 AM

Is the receiver ring marked?
I just saw one at a gun show yesterday. The dealer selling it said it was one of the "sporters" sold by AIM, or SOG, of whoever, I don't remember. He removed the rear sight, and put a scope with the mounts directly to the dovetail milled into the barrel. He said he still needed to cut a groove to keep the bases from sliding. He also had shortened the barrel a couple inches. It had a nice matte black finish he said was on it when he got it.
It almost made me think that they can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

LarryNTX · September 11, 2011, 07:30 PM

Quote:

I read online that there was a gentleman many years ago that modified the 91/30s' including re-chambering in 30 06.

You're thinking of the Bannerman conversions. I think the ones he did have a new rear sight dovetailed into the barrel and the receiver is marked 30.06.

Gunplummer · September 11, 2011, 10:38 PM

I don't know who Bannerman is, but have seen 30.06 conversions at auctions and they are generally ruled dangerous and look up to the reputation.

JiminTexas · September 11, 2011, 11:09 PM

You also have to remember that for a C&R gun to retain the C&R exemption, it must be in the original basic configuration. This is probably the most disregarded aspect of cruffling, but it is still a potential for loosing your license.

Cheapshooter · September 11, 2011, 11:48 PM

Quote:

You also have to remember that for a C&R gun to retain the C&R exemption, it must be in the original basic configuration. This is probably the most disregarded aspect of cruffling, but it is still a potential for loosing your license.

A little OT, but I have to ask you.
If I would want to build a sporter out of a M/N, and just went to a LGS and bought one without using my C&R, I still have to enter it in my bound book. Now, it's a C&R in my book, so I can't sporterize it. If any C&R in my possession has to be in my book, I cant "disposition" it to me, without putting it back in my book! Sounds like a vicious circle.

Hardcase · September 12, 2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Now, it's a C&R in my book, so I can't sporterize it. If any C&R in my possession has to be in my book, I cant "disposition" it to me, without putting it back in my book!

Sure you can sporterize it. At the least, you can dispose of it to yourself and note that it is for the purpose of altering it so that it no longer qualifies as a C&R firearm.

Don P · September 13, 2011, 08:27 AM

Quote:

A little OT, but I have to ask you.
If I would want to build a sporter out of a M/N, and just went to a LGS and bought one without using my C&R, I still have to enter it in my bound book. Now, it's a C&R in my book, so I can't sporterize it. If any C&R in my possession has to be in my book, I cant "disposition" it to me, without putting it back in my book! Sounds like a vicious circle.

If you purchase a C&R firearm and "DO NOT" use your C&R license and buy it on a 4473 it "DOES NOT" get entered into the bound book. The filling out of the 4473 negates that. This is from a seminar (Q&A) session put on by the ATF that I was lucky to get into thanks to a friend that is a FFL dealer.
It is the same for a FFL-01 dealer that purchases a firearm for himself at a dealer and fills out the 4473. This purchase does not go into his bound book because of the 4473. All that need to be done is tag the gun when it is in storage as personal. Again this from the same seminar. I am currently using the ATF Publication 3312.8 which is available from their web site (FREE) to list your personal firearms that are NOT in your bound book.

Hardcase · September 13, 2011, 08:56 AM

Don P, the problem that I see with what the ATF agent said at the seminar you attended is that it seems to contradict what has been published by the ATF:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...io-relics.html

The second bullet in the "Required" section says "Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collector’s license."

Here's why I think that there is a conflict:

1. Neither that bullet nor the supporting law makes any differentiation between a purchase with or without a license.
2. Neither that bullet nor the supporting law defines a curio or relic in terms of a firearm purchased using the license.

Now, I appreciate that an agent said that you're OK if you don't enter the firearms if you didn't use the license because that makes sense for an 01FFL. But given that what's on paper about 03FFLs seems to contradict what the agent said, I would (and do) enter all C&R firearms into my bound book.

The rules regarding personal firearms for an 01FFL are not the same as for an 03FFL. The ATF differentiates between the firearms that an 01FFL purchases for his personal collection (by way of a 4473), versus those he purchases for his business. In the case of an 03FFL, all purchases are for his personal collection, whether using the license or a 4473.

tobnpr · September 13, 2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

If I would want to build a sporter out of a M/N, and just went to a LGS and bought one without using my C&R, I still have to enter it in my bound book. Now, it's a C&R in my book, so I can't sporterize it. If any C&R in my possession has to be in my book, I cant "disposition" it to me, without putting it back in my book! Sounds like a vicious circle.

I am under the impression that, if the C&R weapon is "sporterized" and no longer qualifies as a C&R, that it simply cannot be re-sold as C&R, and must be sold (transferred) through an 01 FFL like any other non-C&R weapon.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 14, 2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tobnpr

I am under the impression that, if the C&R weapon is "sporterized" and no longer qualifies as a C&R, that it simply cannot be re-sold as C&R, and must be sold (transferred) through an 01 FFL like any other non-C&R weapon.

But does it stay in your bound book after having been sporterized up until you sell it (if that should ever occur), or immediately after sporterization, since it is no longer C&R eligible, do you (or can you) disposition it to yourself to get it out of the bound book?

Or do you have to take it to an 01 FFL and go through him to transfer it from your C&R self to your non-C&R self?

Cheapshooter · September 14, 2011, 09:32 PM

Quote:

But does it stay in your bound book after having been sporterized up until you sell it (if that should ever occur), or immediately after sporterization, since it is no longer C&R eligible, do you (or can you) disposition it to yourself to get it out of the bound book?

Or do you have to take it to an 01 FFL and go through him to transfer it from your C&R self to your non-C&R self?

Read Post #10 The answer I got from hardcase sounds reasonable.
In essence, you transfer it to it to yourself before it becomes non-C&R.

September 10, 2011, 10:31 PM	#3
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	My 91/59 is so marked on the receiver ring. Could be someone shortened a 91/30 barrel. Does the front sight look original? __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

September 11, 2011, 11:39 AM	#4
Shoebatt Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2011 Location: Berkeley Springs, WV Posts: 5	The front sight looks like an add on. I saw an identical one in another store about 15 miles from where I got this one. I read online that there was a gentleman many years ago that modified the 91/30s' including re-chambering in 30 06. ?However, his initials will be marked in the receiver. __________________ False Motivation is better than none at all.

September 11, 2011, 11:59 AM	#5
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Is the receiver ring marked? I just saw one at a gun show yesterday. The dealer selling it said it was one of the "sporters" sold by AIM, or SOG, of whoever, I don't remember. He removed the rear sight, and put a scope with the mounts directly to the dovetail milled into the barrel. He said he still needed to cut a groove to keep the bases from sliding. He also had shortened the barrel a couple inches. It had a nice matte black finish he said was on it when he got it. It almost made me think that they can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

September 13, 2011, 08:56 AM	#12
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Don P, the problem that I see with what the ATF agent said at the seminar you attended is that it seems to contradict what has been published by the ATF: http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/20...io-relics.html The second bullet in the "Required" section says "Must enter into the A/D record all curios and relics acquired after receipt of the collector’s license." Here's why I think that there is a conflict: 1. Neither that bullet nor the supporting law makes any differentiation between a purchase with or without a license. 2. Neither that bullet nor the supporting law defines a curio or relic in terms of a firearm purchased using the license. Now, I appreciate that an agent said that you're OK if you don't enter the firearms if you didn't use the license because that makes sense for an 01FFL. But given that what's on paper about 03FFLs seems to contradict what the agent said, I would (and do) enter all C&R firearms into my bound book. The rules regarding personal firearms for an 01FFL are not the same as for an 03FFL. The ATF differentiates between the firearms that an 01FFL purchases for his personal collection (by way of a 4473), versus those he purchases for his business. In the case of an 03FFL, all purchases are for his personal collection, whether using the license or a 4473. __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

September 10, 2011, 09:16 PM	#1
Shoebatt Junior Member Join Date: September 10, 2011 Location: Berkeley Springs, WV Posts: 5	Sporterized Mosin Nagant I have a Mosin Nagant that I picked up that has the bolt handle bent and the fore end of the stock cut and rounded. The rifle has sights equal to a 91/30 but it is slightly smaller that a 91/30. Any ideas? __________________ False Motivation is better than none at all.

September 10, 2011, 09:58 PM	#2
m.p.driver Senior Member Join Date: January 25, 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 552	If it started out shorter than a issue 91 it could be a 38,a 44 that someone took the side mounted bayonet off.Or a 91/59 that was shortened by the military from a full size rifle.Since they are so dirt cheap you see more and more of them customized to the shooters taste.The Mosin Nagant forum will give you a heads up on what it started out as.

September 11, 2011, 10:38 PM	#7
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I don't know who Bannerman is, but have seen 30.06 conversions at auctions and they are generally ruled dangerous and look up to the reputation.

September 11, 2011, 11:09 PM	#8
JiminTexas Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2010 Posts: 149	You also have to remember that for a C&R gun to retain the C&R exemption, it must be in the original basic configuration. This is probably the most disregarded aspect of cruffling, but it is still a potential for loosing your license.