ACP/LP

[Walap42]

I've been reading about 45ACP being used in 45LC revolvers, quite successfully. Does anyone know if the same would be true for a 45 LC saddle gun.

[mavracer]

no the 45acp revolvers require a different cylinder

[tahunua001]

no 45ACP requires use of moon, halfmoon, or 3rd moon clips.



long colt cartridges have large rim which keep the cartridge from sliding all the way down the cylinder. 45ACP does not have this and use the moon clips to create a false rim, also speeds loading. you can't do that in a lever gun. there is a special caliber 45 auto-rimmed which has the rim which MIGHT be possible to use in a 45LC lever gun but I have never heard of it being done, nor would I be comfortable recommending it and in the end, it's more expensive than 45 colt and weaker to boot... pointless endeavor.

[44 AMP]

there is a special caliber 45 auto-rimmed which has the rim which MIGHT be possible to use in a 45LC lever gun but I have never heard of it being done,

And you won't hear of it being done, because it cannot be. (ok, maybe you could do it mechanically, but it would need a purpose built design or an extensive rework of an existing design to handle the extraction)

The .45 Colt (aka .45LC) is .480" at the case mouth. It is a straight case. The .45ACP is nearly straight, but does taper a little bit, from .476" at the head, to .473" at the case mouth. So, besides being shorter (.898 vs 1.285") the .45 ACP case is slightly undersized for the .45 Colt chamber.

The .45 Auto Rim case was designed to work in 1917 Colt & S&W revolvers, chambered for the .45ACP. These guns, ordered to provide extra .45cal pistols during WW I, shoot the .45ACP, and they rely on half moon clips for extraction. They are built with the clearance needed for the clips. The .45 AR has a very thick rim, specifically to use the clearance found in these revolvers.

The .45AR case has a rim .516" diameter (.45 Colt .512") and it is .090" thick (.45 Colt .060")

While these dimensional difference might not make it impossible, they do make it impractical.

[Jim Watson]

If you are really deep into CAS, there is the .45 Cowboy Special which has the case length of an ACP and the rim of a LC. The guy who makes 1860, 1866, and 1873 lifters for it says they will also work with ACPs. You would, of course have to have the right chamber and extractor for it.

[khest]

Codymatic does a conversion for 1873 from 45LC to 45ACP

http://www.codyscowboyshop.com/

[44 AMP]

A good smith can convert a lot of things. Making something to handle both ACP and Long Colt is another matter, and I think there is too much difference to be able to have interchangeability, other than an SA revolver swapping cylinders.

If someone can prove me wrong, I'll happily admit it.

I will amend this to admit that you could get both to work in a single cylinder, provided the frame & cylinder have the needed clearances, but it would be far from ideal for the acp brass.

[B.L.E.]

no 45ACP requires use of moon, halfmoon, or 3rd moon clips.

Well, the DA revolvers require that. I think Ruger's single action convertibles had a .45ACP cylinder that headspaced on the case mouth just like the auto pistols do. Ejection was by an ejector rod.

[tahunua001]

in that case, it was 45ACP being used in a handgun chambered for 45ACP, not long colt.

[RJay]

No, to answer your question, the .45 ACP will not work in your .45 Colt saddle gun. The gun ( I'm assuming, which is always a hazard., that your saddle gun is a lever action ) is designed to deliver the much longer .45 Colt cartridge to the chamber area, the lifter wont work on the ,45 ACP, it will simply jam. Even if you fed the cartridge by hand it would s fall completely into the camber because it has no rim.

[B.L.E.]

in that case, it was 45ACP being used in a handgun chambered for 45ACP, not long colt.

Those DA revolvers chambered for .45ACP, did they head space on the moon clips or did they head space on the cartridge mouth like the semi auto pistols? I they head spaced on the case mouth, you would still be able to use them without moon clips, but you would have to push the spent cases out with a pencil or something to reload. This would make moon clips a convenience rather than an absolute necessity.

[mavracer]

in that case, it was 45ACP being used in a handgun chambered for 45ACP, not long colt.

Semantics
You can't just use moon clips to shoot ACPs in a gun chambered for 45 Colt either. It requires the cylinder to be cut for moon clips.

[B.L.E.]

Semantics
You can't just use moon clips to shoot ACPs in a gun chambered for 45 Colt either. It requires the cylinder to be cut for moon clips.

And once you do that, you can no longer shoot .45 Colt in the revolver. Way too much head space.

Speaking of semantics, why don't we call them "star clips"?

[mavracer]

And once you do that, you can no longer shoot .45 Colt in the revolver. Way too much head space

Actually you can "if" they only machine where the moon clips go and leave the outer part of the cylinder alone for the Colt rim to headspace against. The S&W Governor is done that way.

[44 AMP]

We call them moon clips because we are lazy.
The right name is full moon clips. This is because the original clips were called "Half Moon Clips" because of their shape. The 1917 revolvers were chambered for the .45ACP.

They do have the shoulder in the chamber to headspace on, and using two 3-rnd half moon clips meant you could extract all the empties with the normal extractor, so no other changes to a standard production gun were needed. (that was an important thing in terms of time and money, at that time)

They will still work without the clips, just that reloading is about as slow as a single action, since you have to poke out the empties by hand with a rod/stick/pencil, etc.

The 6rnd "Full Moon Clip" came along later. As did the 2rnd "quarter moon clips". Not certain just when, but I'm sure it was well after the original half moon clips.

Now, you can build a lever gun that will handle different lengths of cartridges, interchangeably. Its done all the time in .22 rimfire.

But you have to build it to do that, from the start. Converting an existing "long" cartridge action to shoot a shorter one isn't easy. Although, I suppose a model 94 in .30-30 and one in .44Mag shows that you can adapt the action or one, OR the other without a complete redesign.

The added complexity of the differences between the ACP and Colt case, and their methods of headspacing, I just don't see any levergun design that could run them interchangeably.

Having said that, some bright kid will come along with a design which actually will do it....but I ain't seen it yet, and I'd bet the cowboy gamers wouldn't let you play with it, if you did!

[mavracer]

They will still work without the clips, just that reloading is about as slow as a single action, since you have to poke out the empties by hand with a rod/stick/pencil, etc

I don't remember now which one it was but early on either Colt or Smith 1917 did not have a shoulder, I'm thinking it was Colt.

[tahunua001]

You can't just use moon clips to shoot ACPs in a gun chambered for 45 Colt either. It requires the cylinder to be cut for moon clips.

And once you do that, you can no longer shoot .45 Colt in the revolver. Way too much head space.

the S&W governor begs to differ.

[mavracer]

the S&W governor begs to differ.

Again with the semantics, The governor is specifically designed to shoot both and 410 shot shells. BTW you can't use 1/2 moon clips in a governor.

[tahunua001]

really? I apologize they only make 1/3 moon clips for the governor.
here are 1/3 moon clips for the governor

[James K]

I am not sure how a '73 repro in .45 Colt could be converted to use .45 ACP without either having the round supported on the extractor (not a good practice) or reworking or replacing the barrel to provide a shoulder for the .45 ACP to headspace on. Either way, $550 is a pretty substantial amount of cash just to shoot a different caliber. That kind of thing made sense when surplus .45 ACP was available at $2 a box, but I don't think it does today.

Jim

[RJay]

Folks, I may be wrong ( won't be the first time ) but this is on a rifle forum, and Wala42 was asking about using 45 ACP in his "45 Colt " saddle gun ( not revolver ), being that the question is on the rifle forum, and the way the question is worded, leads me to believe he is asking is .45 ACP and .45 Colt are interchangeable in his rifle ( which I'm assuming is a lever action. Whats all this have to do with moon clips?

[B.L.E.]

Well, all the revolver talk illustrates why the .45 Colt and ACP don't mix in a rifle. One is rimless and the other is rimmed. In order to work in the revolvers, moon clips give the ACP case a "rim".
A lever gun for .45ACP could certainly be made. There are a few semi-auto carbines for the round already, for those who prefer to shoot in zoot suit costumes instead of cowboy costumes.

[RJay]

And did you really answered what he wanted to know , which was a simple yes or no. No because of the rim and length. I think every one just got off the subject. Of course that is just my opinion and I have more out in the garage.

[tahunua001]

pretty sure there were a lot of "no" in there, you were just bent out of shape because of revolver talk in a rifle forum...
there is no place in a rifle forum for revolver talk

[RJay]

Not bent out of shape, just curious. I just think every one misread his question and went off on a tangent. Unless of course that is the type of rifle the OP was referring to, odd saddle rifle, that.