Did the old-timers use lube in cap & ball revolvers? - Page 2

Missoura Don · February 14, 2006, 08:53 PM

Hey Mike, yea, that would be great man!!! I'm gonna check out Dixie gun works site and try to find that Ad...anything you have to add would be greatly appreciated...thanks again!!

Remington kid · February 14, 2006, 09:02 PM

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mec · February 14, 2006, 11:18 PM

That would probably be the best source. I got this one from Bates and I don't know where he found the original. You see it published in just about every book about Colt Revolvers.

I haven/t read much about that sort of injury but there were claims that you could judge how long a soldier had been in one of those brigades that had the Colt root revolving rifles by the number of fingers left on his left hand. I believe RL Wilson repeated an epitath in his book that went something like

" Killed accidentally with a colt revolver
It was of the older type without the pins
between the chambers
Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven
Go ye therefore, and do likewise."

Wayner · February 15, 2006, 01:51 AM

Remington Kid, when you make the lube pills they have to have enough wax that they "stay solid". In hot weather add more pariffine wax. Ifin ya want to let the gun sit with lube pills in it and aren't sure if the oil in them will contaminate the powder then use a little circle of wax paper under the pill or just leave the pill out altogether. Smear some over the top of the ball. The waxy sticks and not much of it gets blown off like grease when other chambers fire. I noticed that my pills bleed a little onto thin cig. papers when I put them into paper cartridges under the ball. Never seems to affect the powder charge. It feels the same anyhow. You can't give lube pills a bad rap ifun they are made wrong. Wool wads with lube on them probably work well but why use the wool to suspend the lube/wax under the ball when the lube pill can be made "solid"? About balls coming forward with recoil.... even a tight ball can come forward on occasion especially when it's the first cylinder fired and the chambers are clean. In one of my 1860 Colts the chambers are .455 and I use a .464 ball. In my Walker the chambers are .464 and I use a .472 ball. I guess the lube pills wax up the chambers and keep them too clean so I try to use tight balls. Anywhoooo, it's hard to see if any fouling broke loose on loading a ball or there is a void in a ball that is shaved "open" when chambered. It would be a good idea to at least put some liquid lube in a little visine bottle and put a couple of drops in each chamber. Let it run down around the ball around where it seals against the chamber. That way if there is some kind of slight opening the liquid lube will run in and wet the powder there. I've done that. Load er up with the naked ball and drop a couple of drops of Ballistol in each chamber and fire away. If you want to leave a gun loaded and feel sure that it will fire then just smear some sticky wax lube pill over the ball. The ball would be at the top of the chamber if the gun is for defense because of the heavier powder charge and it would only take a small amount of wax/lube to go around the edges of the ball. Put the right size caps that fit tight and feel secure the gun will fire and not chain fire when needed the most. I've done that when leaving a percussion gun loaded for a length of time. Good luck Bud.

Remington kid · February 15, 2006, 06:43 AM

Wayner, All good ideas and suggestions you gave above. Tried several recipes for the pills including straight wax but never found anything I liked for over the powder. I have used them over the ball and thats fine.
As for the caps I'm a firm believer in the right size caps only. I do know that many people believe that if you don't have to pinch them to make them stay on then you have the wrong size caps. Thats the reason so many people feel that #11 should be used so that you can pinch them and they work. I'm still scratching my head about that one. Find the cap that fits like a glove and you should be all set.
My reason for using no grease over or under the ball is just to get back to basics and it's an experiment I've been wanting to try and I don't advocate anyone else doing it unless you believe what Colt recommends and that you know that your caps and balls fit really tight. My 51 Navy will shave lead from a .375 ball but I'm still using a .380 and it's really tight. As you can see from Mec's Colt document above they do not recommend using any wad or patches and make no reference to any lubes over or under the ball.
Others have done it that way for years with no chain fires at all. In fact I was chatting with a cowboy on another site and he has been shooting C&B Revolvers since 1956 without lube and has never had a chain fire.
Thanks again for your recommendation's and I'll let you know if Colt knew what he was talking about or not

Mike

Wayner · February 15, 2006, 09:27 AM

Remington Kid, alright there BUd. You are correct about the caps. There is no better way than to use the cap that fits like a glove on the cone/tube/nipple.I will admit to pinching caps sopmetimes but I like to change out nipples or get the right size caps so the caps are a "glove fit". I scratch my head too when I hear people say that pinching the cap is the "right" way versas a cap that fits properly. I guess a person needs mechanical aptitude to understand there is nothing better than a proper fitting cap that stays on fully seated wthout the pinching. Do you imagine there may have been other advertisements or instructions by the Colt manufacturers that recommended using grease or lube over the ball? Weather proofing maybe? More detailed instructions? Too bad the Colt factory burned down uh? There would have been a lot of interesting history in those burned documents. What a bummer. Take care Bud.

Remington kid · February 15, 2006, 11:05 AM

Wayner, Mec has done a lot more research on the Lube over the ball history than I have but I personally have never seen any articles by Colt or any others to that effect. That sure doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere.
As Mec described above it seems that the feelings are that the stupidity of a few lead to the idea of grease over the ball along will bullets loaded wrong or ill fitting in the chambers.

As for wads it may be that I don't know who came up with that for Revolvers.I liked using them and still will depending what I'm loading and what it's for.They also seem to help take up some room in the chamber.
I never have used any kind of filler and really don't see any reason for it unless your using such light loads that you need to to keep the load seated down on the powder. These are just my thoughts on the subject and could be totally wrong. It won't be the first time

tinker2 · February 15, 2006, 02:39 PM

To grease or not

Chain fire, I think can be caused by lose caps, lose balls,
and the wrong/to long percussion nipples.

I have been to close to chain fires six times now. You can
tell the difference from the sound and the end results of the
look of the gun whether the cylinder fired from the front of
it or the back.

From the front, most cylinders but not all were well greased,
the sound is a little more of a loud whoosh. No visible harm
done to the guns or shooter, unless you count the shooters
nerves and no friends that want to shoot with them.

Firing from the back of the cylinder is a boom/roar or two.
I have seen it caused by lose caps, worn out/over sized hole
in the nipples, lose nipples and the wrong nipples that were
too long and when fired, the recoil of the cylinder hitting the
recoil shield of the revolver fired the rest.

Much harder on the gun and shooter.
The gun looks like you used it for the target. From what I have
seen the bullet that hits the loading lever is the one that is the
hardest on the gun. The ones that hit the sides of the barrel is
what is hardest on bystanders.
= less friends that want to shoot with them.

Tinker2

mec · February 15, 2006, 07:35 PM

That's as good a discussion of multiple ignitions as I've ever seen.

Remington kid · February 15, 2006, 07:49 PM

Tink,

I can see why the guy standing around you would have a need for a couple shots of Jack! Your story is much the same as I have heard from others as far as no harm done to the shooter but a case of shakes for a while.
Are you able to shot at all yet? Hope your healing alright, Mike

gmatov · February 15, 2006, 10:15 PM

As far as pinching your caps to fit a small nipple, how come all caps are pert'near perfect round?

If you gotta pinch 'em, wouldn't you think the mfg. would make them all oval, pinched? You can squeeze a pinched cap on a tube that it fits about as easy as one that is small.

I druther have a cap that fits the nipple kinda snug than have to pinch 'em. For one thing, you still have a path to the hole in the cone in the ends of the pinched oval cap, or to the priming compound in the cap, for them who are paranoid. Fire bouncin' from the cap just snapped, and the fire outa the just fired nipple, could jet back up into the next cap's flares, the oval ends of it.

A cap that seals off the nipple keeps it out of the firing channel.

And, like Tinker said, too long a cone, smack the capped nipple back to the recoil shield, could be a multi fire, not a chain, all going off at once.

Cheers,

George

Wayner · February 16, 2006, 02:05 AM

Remington Kid, you ever take ye lube and mix it into bees or paraffin wax so it ain't greasy and micro wave it to liquid and saturate wool wads. You like the grease lube over the wad that's over the powder that's under the ball so I figure you'd like the waxy lubed wad too. When the lube is suspended in wax and that isn't greasy but more solid once it cools and solidifies then it doesn't comtaminate the powder. At least not right away. Maybe after some time like days. When the lubey wax is saturated in the wad the fire melts some of it and spreads it on the barrel in front of the powder so the fouling sticks less. That guy Rowdy Yates that won the Cass nationals three times(or something like that) with cap&ballers uses Thompson wads and Thompson lube on them under the balls in a pair of 1860's. He devised a "cap guard" to keep the caps out of the action(fall down in front of the hammer) and I imagine that helps win matches too but the wool wads saturated with some waxy lube helps too I guess. I think that in the old days there were folks that used lube and those that didn't just like today.

Remington kid · February 16, 2006, 06:01 AM

Wayner, Been mixen and messen with different recipes for lubes for about 40 years and still do it. In fact I just sent a second batch of some of my concoction to Old Dragoon to play with . Bees wax is one method in some of my concoctions as well as candle wax and canning wax and hell , I may have tried ear wax along the way

I never said pills don't work but here's what happens to me. My hobby is tracking and photographing Bear in these mountains and I do from the first of June to mid Oct or longer. It really gets hot and humid here and my Remington .44 may be loaded for day's before I have to shoot a snake or scare off a PO'd Bear. It doesn't take long for the pill to screw up the powder or for the lube over a ball to melt out of the chambers and into your holster. That's one of the reasons I started using it between a dry wad and the ball.
I agree that it helps keep the barrel a little cleaner and the fouling softer.I also agree that they work if your going to use the gun soon and not let it sit for day's. They don't work for me when I leave my Rem loaded for a while in 90+ degree day's. That's one of the reasons I want to get back to basics and Colts method of loading there Revolvers. I may still use lube at the range or if I'm going to do a lot of shooting but for carrying in the woods I see no reason for it and my testing so far shows that, Mike

Remington kid · February 16, 2006, 06:15 AM

George, Just about done with the wifes "Honey Do" list. I got a bit of a reprieve while the snow and cold was here but it looks like I have to put the apron back on now

I'm with you a 100 percent on the cap's fitting. I'm sure you remember when I went round and round with your friend about the proper caps to use on a Revolver. He sure insisted that if you didn't have to pinch them they were the wrong caps.'I'll take form fitting caps any day and have used some that were a hair on the small side. There's is no reason for a person to have to pinch caps with all the different size one's out there today and the size and fit varies from one manufacture to another. I like the #10 Remington's because they fit my nipples perfectly and they seen a little longer also then most. If I try a #10 CCI they fit a little to snug but I think it's because they seem to have a thicker skin but the funny thing is the CCI #11 will fit fine. I had some bad ignition problems with the CCI so I don't use them. It could have just been a bad batch. Take care, Mike

Wayner · February 16, 2006, 11:54 AM

Remington Kid, what mountains you track bear in? I agree with the contention that you don't want anything to foul powder when in close proximity to bears. When you said you agree the lube pills keep the barrel a "little cleaner" I thought I should rehash this. Ifin the pills have the right wax/lube combination they keep the barrel "really" clean as in "rifling stays perfectly clear".(may turn black but with some mixes it stays shiny) Any combination I've tried seemed to work well too. It's the lube pill under the ball that I think causes the pills to work well. I'll have to mix some up someday for "hot weather" use and let them sit in the gun for a week or two and see ifin they foul the powder. I guess I'd just use a lot more paraffin since it stays solid even in a good amount of heat. May be though that using a lot of pariffin wax that the lubing and fouling decrease may not be good. I'll have to see some day. I think it would be pretty difficult to find a lube to mix with wax that doesn't bleed out some.I've let my guns sit loaded in hot weather in the past and they went "Bang" when I fired them but.... I don't remember how well they went bang. You load em hot when going out tracking bear just in case you run into too close proximity to a mamma with some cubs? Ifin I was doing bear tracking with carrying a cap&baller I'd be loadin hot with a conical and FFFg 777 Hodgdon powder. ha ha ha A Remington can load a good amount of 777 and still fit a conical in there.

Remington kid · February 16, 2006, 12:55 PM

Wayner, Where we live is in the Appalachian Mountains in south central WV. Most of my playing with Bear is right here around my place but I like to be south Of the Elk river best. We have an area over there that takes in about 500 sg. miles of wilderness, that's about 10 miles from my house.Every now and then we have Bear come in our yard and a lot of Bob Cat lately and a few Bore. I track them all summer as a hobby and then in Oct. I hunt them with a longbow.
My Remington has 40g of pyrodex "P" and a 200g. Conical when I'm in the woods. For around the house for rattlers and copperheads I'll have my 51 Navy on my side with 22g. Pyrodex and a .380 ball. Here is a pic of a large sow with triplets I took this last summer.Mike
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tinker2 · February 16, 2006, 02:15 PM

Remington kid

Quote:

“Are you able to shoot at all yet? Hope your healing alright, Mike”

This last Monday was the first time in over a 1/3 of a year
that I did get out and shot real lead bullets, 18 of them.
My wife took me out and set up targets for me. It was great.

I shot from a bench rest, with both hands and my hands were
rested on the bench. The gun is the Cimarron Firearms Co.
Model "P" Jr. that my wife gave me for Christmas.
Nice gun. Great wife.
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/ModelPJr.htm
Mine is blue.

I keep healing, slooooooow but healing. Thanks for asking.

So, I am going to get a 1851 C&B this summer, but for me to
load it, I will need a loading stand. Now my good friend &
amigo and some time cohort, SixForSure has said that he
will make one for me. If of course he can figure it out first.
Not being one to waste time or raw material, he would like to
find a set of plans or drawings or a tracing that he could use.

Anyone out there got something like that? Yes I know that I
can order one but I prefer if I can, to have things that are hand
made by my friends. He also needs something to do to keep him
out of trouble.

Tinker2

Remington kid · February 16, 2006, 02:26 PM

Tink, The healing does take time and the cabin fever really got to me in 89 after breaking my back in 3 places and a few other nasty injuries. It was a long road back and I will never be right again but I'm alive and as long as I take my time I can get around real well. If I push it I'm screwed. Give it time to heal right and it will pay off in the long run.
There is an on going discussion at this site about the bench loading tool but I don't know how much one will help you. They are cheap to make so you can always give it a try. Mike

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182337

tinker2 · February 16, 2006, 03:22 PM

Remington kid

This is the thing that I want to have made.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=7768

Mike, my friend, we have a lot in common. I broke my back in two
Places (the bones were sticking ½ inch into my chest cavity) in
1991. My doctor thinks I am hard to kill.
Only the good die young.

I have often thought that I would like helping you keep your pine
cones at bay.

Tinker2

Remington kid · February 16, 2006, 05:25 PM

Tink, Send me your snail mail and I'll send you one in a few days. It will take a few days for the stain or paint to dry. I have made 3 of them and they work great for my Remington .44 or my 51 Navy. It wont be hinged because there's no reason for it. I have some running around to do in the morning but I can cut it out on my band saw when I get back, glue and screw it and stain it sat. Mike
[email protected]

tinker2 · February 17, 2006, 09:06 AM

Mike

Your outstanding

E-Mail sent

Have a great day
Tinker2

GolfGuy · March 30, 2006, 01:13 AM

I found an article pertinent to the chain firing topic in this thread and it supports the 'tight-ball-no-grease-needed' theroy and thought I'd post an excerpt from it. I know I'm the new guy here and don't presume know a dang thing about BP shooting (except what I've learned in this forum and searching the internet), you pro's will probably not find this as enlightening as I did. The full article can be found at the link below the excerpt.

*******************************

If you'll recall a couple of paragraphs back I mentioned a chain fire I had. It was more than one, actually, and was caused my own stupidity with regards to percussion caps. The revolver I was using at the time was a CVA copy of a .31 caliber Remington pocket revolver.

I'd made my own "wonder wads" from some thick "hat felt" punched into discs with an 8mm hole punch. The homemade wads were lubed with T/C Bore Butter and seemed to be an excellent fit in the chambers of that .31. Still, when I touched off the first shot a second chamber fired, causing the 10-grain powder charge to flatten a ball against the frame. It was disturbing to say the least! I disassembled the gun, cleaned and inspected it, and loaded again. On the second shot, a different chamber fired, repeating the scene. I decided then and there that my homemade wads weren't cutting the mustard and loaded using a daub of T/C lube over each chamber mouth, confident that the immediate problem had been solved. On the third shot the gun chain fired again. Now I was flummoxed.

It took me a minute or ten but I finally figured it out: The percussion caps were the wrong size for the nipples on the cylinder. I had run out of #10 caps and simply squeezed a #11 cap to a snug fit in the nipples. This is practice causes no harm when I use it on my side-lock .32 squirrel rifle but it proved to be a dangerous practice for revolvers. The flash and flame that engulfed the cylinder was finding its way into the opening left by my “pinching” of the oversized caps. I proved this by loading one chamber with a charge but just capping the others. I would find one cap burned for every two or three firings. When I switched back to #10 caps on this revolver the problem was cured.

http://www.jesseshunting.com/article...gory16/63.html

gmatov · March 30, 2006, 02:21 AM

GG,

I'll bet that doesn't settle the argument. Sounds good to me, but there's them who insist it's the other end.

Looking at the Colt ad that Mike or someone posted, where the Colt company explains loading the revolver and says place the ball on the chamber without wadding or patch, it's teaching single shot shooters, and mebbe shotgun shooters that, unlike a percussion rifle you dont patch the ball, or wad the shot in a smoothbore.

I've had that misunderstanding at gunstores when trying to buy 380 ball for my 36. 375s fall in. They say well, why don't you just use a patch? Clueless as to BP revolver shooting. Their TC or Lyman or whatever uses patches, hey, it's C&B, you'rs s'posed to patch the ball.

So, I would think, in 1850 whatever, with most people having a BP rifle, and patching their ball, the thought would be that you had to with the Colt too, and Colt was trying to edumacate the new shooters of his pistols.

As to a greased wad being mentioned, I've been reading a downloadable book, a good bit to do with the Whitworth Rifle, and they made a "cartridge" to hold the ball, a greased wad under it, to soften the fouling (several hundred shots fired without swabbing the barrell) and the powder below that. Pull a paper pull tab, stroke the ramrod, fully loaded.

2000 yard gun, hexagon bore, never fully adopted.

600 plus megs of downloadable out of print books in PDF format.

Howe, on modern gunsmithing, 1940s, WHB Smith, on the rifle, Askins on the shotgun, on and on. Anybody want to DL it, say so, I'll post the link. Right now, I'm reading "The Story of the Gun", printed 1864. Hatcher's Notebook is another on the site.

Lots of people say Elmer Keith bought felt hats to make greased wads. I have read lots of Keith, never read that in any of his books. Only reference to greased wad was one picture of a target, either 1 hole or damned near, that in the notes on the target mentions that that session he did use greased wads.

I wish SOMEBODY would find a reference, preferably 100 years old or more, that reccommends that you grease a wad for under the ball, or that you smear grease over it. I kinda doubt that an Injun fighter would take any more time to grease his chambers rather than start shootin' again as soon as he put powder, ball and caps in the gun.

Cheers,

George

Steve499 · March 30, 2006, 10:08 AM

George!!! Tell me how to find that Whitworth reading! Thanks a bunch!

Steve

gmatov · March 30, 2006, 11:50 PM

Steve,

Here's the link to the downloadable books:

http://www.again.net/~steve/page7d.htm

Here's his Index page, you gotta dig a little to get to other places. This Steve has lots of likes, apparently lots of server space, he tells you his site is at 7.6 gigs and counting:

Never mind, at the bottom of the DLs, just hit "Front Page", takes you there.

13 books there, about 610 megs, zipped, about 630 unzipped, all PDF.

Have fun.

Cheers,

George

Edit: Steve, just read you post at the Pietta thread, that you want a Whitworth. Before I read about it, in the book (only 175 pages or so into it, on screen is different from on paper) I would not have believed it could be so much bette than the other rifles extant, not the GI junk, but the best that there was to be had.

The man was a genius, at least for his day and age. Were he here, today, with a modern education, and modern materials, what could he have accomplished?

Go for it. I almost want one. Not into rifle anymore, should sell allof mine. Won't but should.

February 14, 2006, 09:02 PM	#27
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	[IMG][/IMG]

February 16, 2006, 12:55 PM	#41
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Wayner, Where we live is in the Appalachian Mountains in south central WV. Most of my playing with Bear is right here around my place but I like to be south Of the Elk river best. We have an area over there that takes in about 500 sg. miles of wilderness, that's about 10 miles from my house.Every now and then we have Bear come in our yard and a lot of Bob Cat lately and a few Bore. I track them all summer as a hobby and then in Oct. I hunt them with a longbow. My Remington has 40g of pyrodex "P" and a 200g. Conical when I'm in the woods. For around the house for rattlers and copperheads I'll have my 51 Navy on my side with 22g. Pyrodex and a .380 ball. Here is a pic of a large sow with triplets I took this last summer.Mike [IMG][/IMG]

February 14, 2006, 08:53 PM	#26
Missoura Don Member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Missoura Posts: 80	Hey Mike, yea, that would be great man!!! I'm gonna check out Dixie gun works site and try to find that Ad...anything you have to add would be greatly appreciated...thanks again!!

February 14, 2006, 11:18 PM	#28
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	That would probably be the best source. I got this one from Bates and I don't know where he found the original. You see it published in just about every book about Colt Revolvers. I haven/t read much about that sort of injury but there were claims that you could judge how long a soldier had been in one of those brigades that had the Colt root revolving rifles by the number of fingers left on his left hand. I believe RL Wilson repeated an epitath in his book that went something like " Killed accidentally with a colt revolver It was of the older type without the pins between the chambers Of such is the Kingdom of Heaven Go ye therefore, and do likewise."

February 15, 2006, 01:51 AM	#29
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	Remington Kid, when you make the lube pills they have to have enough wax that they "stay solid". In hot weather add more pariffine wax. Ifin ya want to let the gun sit with lube pills in it and aren't sure if the oil in them will contaminate the powder then use a little circle of wax paper under the pill or just leave the pill out altogether. Smear some over the top of the ball. The waxy sticks and not much of it gets blown off like grease when other chambers fire. I noticed that my pills bleed a little onto thin cig. papers when I put them into paper cartridges under the ball. Never seems to affect the powder charge. It feels the same anyhow. You can't give lube pills a bad rap ifun they are made wrong. Wool wads with lube on them probably work well but why use the wool to suspend the lube/wax under the ball when the lube pill can be made "solid"? About balls coming forward with recoil.... even a tight ball can come forward on occasion especially when it's the first cylinder fired and the chambers are clean. In one of my 1860 Colts the chambers are .455 and I use a .464 ball. In my Walker the chambers are .464 and I use a .472 ball. I guess the lube pills wax up the chambers and keep them too clean so I try to use tight balls. Anywhoooo, it's hard to see if any fouling broke loose on loading a ball or there is a void in a ball that is shaved "open" when chambered. It would be a good idea to at least put some liquid lube in a little visine bottle and put a couple of drops in each chamber. Let it run down around the ball around where it seals against the chamber. That way if there is some kind of slight opening the liquid lube will run in and wet the powder there. I've done that. Load er up with the naked ball and drop a couple of drops of Ballistol in each chamber and fire away. If you want to leave a gun loaded and feel sure that it will fire then just smear some sticky wax lube pill over the ball. The ball would be at the top of the chamber if the gun is for defense because of the heavier powder charge and it would only take a small amount of wax/lube to go around the edges of the ball. Put the right size caps that fit tight and feel secure the gun will fire and not chain fire when needed the most. I've done that when leaving a percussion gun loaded for a length of time. Good luck Bud.

February 15, 2006, 06:43 AM	#30
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Wayner, All good ideas and suggestions you gave above. Tried several recipes for the pills including straight wax but never found anything I liked for over the powder. I have used them over the ball and thats fine. As for the caps I'm a firm believer in the right size caps only. I do know that many people believe that if you don't have to pinch them to make them stay on then you have the wrong size caps. Thats the reason so many people feel that #11 should be used so that you can pinch them and they work. I'm still scratching my head about that one. Find the cap that fits like a glove and you should be all set. My reason for using no grease over or under the ball is just to get back to basics and it's an experiment I've been wanting to try and I don't advocate anyone else doing it unless you believe what Colt recommends and that you know that your caps and balls fit really tight. My 51 Navy will shave lead from a .375 ball but I'm still using a .380 and it's really tight. As you can see from Mec's Colt document above they do not recommend using any wad or patches and make no reference to any lubes over or under the ball. Others have done it that way for years with no chain fires at all. In fact I was chatting with a cowboy on another site and he has been shooting C&B Revolvers since 1956 without lube and has never had a chain fire. Thanks again for your recommendation's and I'll let you know if Colt knew what he was talking about or not Mike

February 15, 2006, 09:27 AM	#31
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	Remington Kid, alright there BUd. You are correct about the caps. There is no better way than to use the cap that fits like a glove on the cone/tube/nipple.I will admit to pinching caps sopmetimes but I like to change out nipples or get the right size caps so the caps are a "glove fit". I scratch my head too when I hear people say that pinching the cap is the "right" way versas a cap that fits properly. I guess a person needs mechanical aptitude to understand there is nothing better than a proper fitting cap that stays on fully seated wthout the pinching. Do you imagine there may have been other advertisements or instructions by the Colt manufacturers that recommended using grease or lube over the ball? Weather proofing maybe? More detailed instructions? Too bad the Colt factory burned down uh? There would have been a lot of interesting history in those burned documents. What a bummer. Take care Bud.

February 15, 2006, 11:05 AM	#32
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Wayner, Mec has done a lot more research on the Lube over the ball history than I have but I personally have never seen any articles by Colt or any others to that effect. That sure doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere. As Mec described above it seems that the feelings are that the stupidity of a few lead to the idea of grease over the ball along will bullets loaded wrong or ill fitting in the chambers. As for wads it may be that I don't know who came up with that for Revolvers.I liked using them and still will depending what I'm loading and what it's for.They also seem to help take up some room in the chamber. I never have used any kind of filler and really don't see any reason for it unless your using such light loads that you need to to keep the load seated down on the powder. These are just my thoughts on the subject and could be totally wrong. It won't be the first time

February 15, 2006, 02:39 PM	#33
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	To grease or not Chain fire, I think can be caused by lose caps, lose balls, and the wrong/to long percussion nipples. I have been to close to chain fires six times now. You can tell the difference from the sound and the end results of the look of the gun whether the cylinder fired from the front of it or the back. From the front, most cylinders but not all were well greased, the sound is a little more of a loud whoosh. No visible harm done to the guns or shooter, unless you count the shooters nerves and no friends that want to shoot with them. Firing from the back of the cylinder is a boom/roar or two. I have seen it caused by lose caps, worn out/over sized hole in the nipples, lose nipples and the wrong nipples that were too long and when fired, the recoil of the cylinder hitting the recoil shield of the revolver fired the rest. Much harder on the gun and shooter. The gun looks like you used it for the target. From what I have seen the bullet that hits the loading lever is the one that is the hardest on the gun. The ones that hit the sides of the barrel is what is hardest on bystanders. = less friends that want to shoot with them. Tinker2

February 15, 2006, 07:35 PM	#34
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	That's as good a discussion of multiple ignitions as I've ever seen.

February 15, 2006, 07:49 PM	#35
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Tink, I can see why the guy standing around you would have a need for a couple shots of Jack! Your story is much the same as I have heard from others as far as no harm done to the shooter but a case of shakes for a while. Are you able to shot at all yet? Hope your healing alright, Mike

February 15, 2006, 10:15 PM	#36
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	As far as pinching your caps to fit a small nipple, how come all caps are pert'near perfect round? If you gotta pinch 'em, wouldn't you think the mfg. would make them all oval, pinched? You can squeeze a pinched cap on a tube that it fits about as easy as one that is small. I druther have a cap that fits the nipple kinda snug than have to pinch 'em. For one thing, you still have a path to the hole in the cone in the ends of the pinched oval cap, or to the priming compound in the cap, for them who are paranoid. Fire bouncin' from the cap just snapped, and the fire outa the just fired nipple, could jet back up into the next cap's flares, the oval ends of it. A cap that seals off the nipple keeps it out of the firing channel. And, like Tinker said, too long a cone, smack the capped nipple back to the recoil shield, could be a multi fire, not a chain, all going off at once. Cheers, George

February 16, 2006, 02:05 AM	#37
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	Remington Kid, you ever take ye lube and mix it into bees or paraffin wax so it ain't greasy and micro wave it to liquid and saturate wool wads. You like the grease lube over the wad that's over the powder that's under the ball so I figure you'd like the waxy lubed wad too. When the lube is suspended in wax and that isn't greasy but more solid once it cools and solidifies then it doesn't comtaminate the powder. At least not right away. Maybe after some time like days. When the lubey wax is saturated in the wad the fire melts some of it and spreads it on the barrel in front of the powder so the fouling sticks less. That guy Rowdy Yates that won the Cass nationals three times(or something like that) with cap&ballers uses Thompson wads and Thompson lube on them under the balls in a pair of 1860's. He devised a "cap guard" to keep the caps out of the action(fall down in front of the hammer) and I imagine that helps win matches too but the wool wads saturated with some waxy lube helps too I guess. I think that in the old days there were folks that used lube and those that didn't just like today.

February 16, 2006, 06:01 AM	#38
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Wayner, Been mixen and messen with different recipes for lubes for about 40 years and still do it. In fact I just sent a second batch of some of my concoction to Old Dragoon to play with . Bees wax is one method in some of my concoctions as well as candle wax and canning wax and hell , I may have tried ear wax along the way I never said pills don't work but here's what happens to me. My hobby is tracking and photographing Bear in these mountains and I do from the first of June to mid Oct or longer. It really gets hot and humid here and my Remington .44 may be loaded for day's before I have to shoot a snake or scare off a PO'd Bear. It doesn't take long for the pill to screw up the powder or for the lube over a ball to melt out of the chambers and into your holster. That's one of the reasons I started using it between a dry wad and the ball. I agree that it helps keep the barrel a little cleaner and the fouling softer.I also agree that they work if your going to use the gun soon and not let it sit for day's. They don't work for me when I leave my Rem loaded for a while in 90+ degree day's. That's one of the reasons I want to get back to basics and Colts method of loading there Revolvers. I may still use lube at the range or if I'm going to do a lot of shooting but for carrying in the woods I see no reason for it and my testing so far shows that, Mike

February 16, 2006, 06:15 AM	#39
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	George, Just about done with the wifes "Honey Do" list. I got a bit of a reprieve while the snow and cold was here but it looks like I have to put the apron back on now I'm with you a 100 percent on the cap's fitting. I'm sure you remember when I went round and round with your friend about the proper caps to use on a Revolver. He sure insisted that if you didn't have to pinch them they were the wrong caps.'I'll take form fitting caps any day and have used some that were a hair on the small side. There's is no reason for a person to have to pinch caps with all the different size one's out there today and the size and fit varies from one manufacture to another. I like the #10 Remington's because they fit my nipples perfectly and they seen a little longer also then most. If I try a #10 CCI they fit a little to snug but I think it's because they seem to have a thicker skin but the funny thing is the CCI #11 will fit fine. I had some bad ignition problems with the CCI so I don't use them. It could have just been a bad batch. Take care, Mike

February 16, 2006, 11:54 AM	#40
Wayner Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 2005 Posts: 116	Remington Kid, what mountains you track bear in? I agree with the contention that you don't want anything to foul powder when in close proximity to bears. When you said you agree the lube pills keep the barrel a "little cleaner" I thought I should rehash this. Ifin the pills have the right wax/lube combination they keep the barrel "really" clean as in "rifling stays perfectly clear".(may turn black but with some mixes it stays shiny) Any combination I've tried seemed to work well too. It's the lube pill under the ball that I think causes the pills to work well. I'll have to mix some up someday for "hot weather" use and let them sit in the gun for a week or two and see ifin they foul the powder. I guess I'd just use a lot more paraffin since it stays solid even in a good amount of heat. May be though that using a lot of pariffin wax that the lubing and fouling decrease may not be good. I'll have to see some day. I think it would be pretty difficult to find a lube to mix with wax that doesn't bleed out some.I've let my guns sit loaded in hot weather in the past and they went "Bang" when I fired them but.... I don't remember how well they went bang. You load em hot when going out tracking bear just in case you run into too close proximity to a mamma with some cubs? Ifin I was doing bear tracking with carrying a cap&baller I'd be loadin hot with a conical and FFFg 777 Hodgdon powder. ha ha ha A Remington can load a good amount of 777 and still fit a conical in there.

February 16, 2006, 02:26 PM	#43
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Tink, The healing does take time and the cabin fever really got to me in 89 after breaking my back in 3 places and a few other nasty injuries. It was a long road back and I will never be right again but I'm alive and as long as I take my time I can get around real well. If I push it I'm screwed. Give it time to heal right and it will pay off in the long run. There is an on going discussion at this site about the bench loading tool but I don't know how much one will help you. They are cheap to make so you can always give it a try. Mike http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=182337

February 16, 2006, 03:22 PM	#44
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	Remington kid This is the thing that I want to have made. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...oducts_id=7768 Mike, my friend, we have a lot in common. I broke my back in two Places (the bones were sticking ½ inch into my chest cavity) in 1991. My doctor thinks I am hard to kill. Only the good die young. I have often thought that I would like helping you keep your pine cones at bay. Tinker2

February 16, 2006, 05:25 PM	#45
Remington kid Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2005 Location: South Central West Virginia Posts: 611	Tink, Send me your snail mail and I'll send you one in a few days. It will take a few days for the stain or paint to dry. I have made 3 of them and they work great for my Remington .44 or my 51 Navy. It wont be hinged because there's no reason for it. I have some running around to do in the morning but I can cut it out on my band saw when I get back, glue and screw it and stain it sat. Mike [email protected]

February 17, 2006, 09:06 AM	#46
tinker2 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Location: Dakotas Posts: 144	Mike Your outstanding E-Mail sent Have a great day Tinker2

March 30, 2006, 01:13 AM	#47
GolfGuy Member Join Date: March 22, 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 69	I found an article pertinent to the chain firing topic in this thread and it supports the 'tight-ball-no-grease-needed' theroy and thought I'd post an excerpt from it. I know I'm the new guy here and don't presume know a dang thing about BP shooting (except what I've learned in this forum and searching the internet), you pro's will probably not find this as enlightening as I did. The full article can be found at the link below the excerpt. ******************************* If you'll recall a couple of paragraphs back I mentioned a chain fire I had. It was more than one, actually, and was caused my own stupidity with regards to percussion caps. The revolver I was using at the time was a CVA copy of a .31 caliber Remington pocket revolver. I'd made my own "wonder wads" from some thick "hat felt" punched into discs with an 8mm hole punch. The homemade wads were lubed with T/C Bore Butter and seemed to be an excellent fit in the chambers of that .31. Still, when I touched off the first shot a second chamber fired, causing the 10-grain powder charge to flatten a ball against the frame. It was disturbing to say the least! I disassembled the gun, cleaned and inspected it, and loaded again. On the second shot, a different chamber fired, repeating the scene. I decided then and there that my homemade wads weren't cutting the mustard and loaded using a daub of T/C lube over each chamber mouth, confident that the immediate problem had been solved. On the third shot the gun chain fired again. Now I was flummoxed. It took me a minute or ten but I finally figured it out: The percussion caps were the wrong size for the nipples on the cylinder. I had run out of #10 caps and simply squeezed a #11 cap to a snug fit in the nipples. This is practice causes no harm when I use it on my side-lock .32 squirrel rifle but it proved to be a dangerous practice for revolvers. The flash and flame that engulfed the cylinder was finding its way into the opening left by my “pinching” of the oversized caps. I proved this by loading one chamber with a charge but just capping the others. I would find one cap burned for every two or three firings. When I switched back to #10 caps on this revolver the problem was cured. http://www.jesseshunting.com/article...gory16/63.html

March 30, 2006, 02:21 AM	#48
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	GG, I'll bet that doesn't settle the argument. Sounds good to me, but there's them who insist it's the other end. Looking at the Colt ad that Mike or someone posted, where the Colt company explains loading the revolver and says place the ball on the chamber without wadding or patch, it's teaching single shot shooters, and mebbe shotgun shooters that, unlike a percussion rifle you dont patch the ball, or wad the shot in a smoothbore. I've had that misunderstanding at gunstores when trying to buy 380 ball for my 36. 375s fall in. They say well, why don't you just use a patch? Clueless as to BP revolver shooting. Their TC or Lyman or whatever uses patches, hey, it's C&B, you'rs s'posed to patch the ball. So, I would think, in 1850 whatever, with most people having a BP rifle, and patching their ball, the thought would be that you had to with the Colt too, and Colt was trying to edumacate the new shooters of his pistols. As to a greased wad being mentioned, I've been reading a downloadable book, a good bit to do with the Whitworth Rifle, and they made a "cartridge" to hold the ball, a greased wad under it, to soften the fouling (several hundred shots fired without swabbing the barrell) and the powder below that. Pull a paper pull tab, stroke the ramrod, fully loaded. 2000 yard gun, hexagon bore, never fully adopted. 600 plus megs of downloadable out of print books in PDF format. Howe, on modern gunsmithing, 1940s, WHB Smith, on the rifle, Askins on the shotgun, on and on. Anybody want to DL it, say so, I'll post the link. Right now, I'm reading "The Story of the Gun", printed 1864. Hatcher's Notebook is another on the site. Lots of people say Elmer Keith bought felt hats to make greased wads. I have read lots of Keith, never read that in any of his books. Only reference to greased wad was one picture of a target, either 1 hole or damned near, that in the notes on the target mentions that that session he did use greased wads. I wish SOMEBODY would find a reference, preferably 100 years old or more, that reccommends that you grease a wad for under the ball, or that you smear grease over it. I kinda doubt that an Injun fighter would take any more time to grease his chambers rather than start shootin' again as soon as he put powder, ball and caps in the gun. Cheers, George

March 30, 2006, 10:08 AM	#49
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 533	George!!! Tell me how to find that Whitworth reading! Thanks a bunch! Steve

March 30, 2006, 11:50 PM	#50
gmatov Junior member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Posts: 346	Steve, Here's the link to the downloadable books: http://www.again.net/~steve/page7d.htm Here's his Index page, you gotta dig a little to get to other places. This Steve has lots of likes, apparently lots of server space, he tells you his site is at 7.6 gigs and counting: Never mind, at the bottom of the DLs, just hit "Front Page", takes you there. 13 books there, about 610 megs, zipped, about 630 unzipped, all PDF. Have fun. Cheers, George Edit: Steve, just read you post at the Pietta thread, that you want a Whitworth. Before I read about it, in the book (only 175 pages or so into it, on screen is different from on paper) I would not have believed it could be so much bette than the other rifles extant, not the GI junk, but the best that there was to be had. The man was a genius, at least for his day and age. Were he here, today, with a modern education, and modern materials, what could he have accomplished? Go for it. I almost want one. Not into rifle anymore, should sell allof mine. Won't but should.