I am not dumb about tools or processes but...

[Doc Hoy]

...I am going to need some advice.

You all saw the photo of the 63 Sharps rifle I came up with. I have had it on the GB and it did not sell the first time and only has three folks watching it the second time through. I am going to let it run two more times and if it does not sell, I'll keep it.

My thought would be to restore it to shooting condition which means some parts replacement as well as some work on the external surfaces of the metal.

I am hoping to get down below the surface corrosion and hopefully be able to pick out a serial number or some marks.

My strategy would be to start with sand paper. Probably 150 or so.

I have no experience working with a rifle that is as bad as this one.

I have two hundred bucks in it and I would like for the final product to be worth at least two hundred bucks plus whatever I spend on parts.

Which brings me to my next question. I know about Numrich, DGW and VTI. But is there a good source of Sharps parts other than the biggies?

Also, In terms of the lock parts or receiver parts, will the stuff that is made for the replica's work in this original rifle?

[4V50 Gary]

Link for those who haven't seen Doc Hoy's images: ://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=524461

Doc Hoy, I'm sorry I can't help you with a source for parts, but seeing the condition of the gun I'd start by draw filing with a smooth file and then follow up with either 80 or 120 grit emery paper backed by the file to prevent the rounding of edges. You will be working too hard if you start straight with emery paper. Try it first on some hidden metal to see if it works for you.

[bedbugbilly]

I'll be brave and throw my 2 cents worth in - but that's all it's worth.

Just how bad is the rust on it? What condition is the bore in - will it require that the barrel be reworked and sleeved? When you locate a supplier of parts, how much is going to be wrapped up in them.

From the photos (if I remember correctly) - you did very well on it at the price you paid. But, as soon as you start reworking it - any value as a "relic" is going to be destroyed - both money wise and desire wise. I guess there are a variety of "collectibles" the carbine woudl fall in to. Civil War relic collectors, gun collectors who can't afford a higher priced example in really nice condition, and then of course - shooters like yourself.

Over the years, I've seen way too many antique muzzleloaders that were "restored" - basically over cleaned/altered with new parts, etc. True, in our ancestor's time, it was common to "fresh out" a bore when worn - I've seen some good work and I've seen some shoddy work as well with the installation of bore liners, etc. As far as collectibles, such guns have lost a lot of their value and unless they are something "special", don't appeal much to shooters as well. But, you are well awae of those things.

I guess it's a decision that you have to make - if you really want a "shooter", and we all know on here that you certainly have the skills and ability to do the work and make it one - are you willing to trade the collector aspect as opposed to the "shooter" aspect? Or, is the amount of money it will take to make it a shooter the same as opposed to a good used replica that has known steel/condition as it's make up? I would think that if it was "restored" to a shooter, there would always be appeal to a NSSA carbine shooter or someone who wants one that's been made into a shooter.

For parts - check with Lodgewood Mfg.. Hunt up the NSSA site (North South Skirmish Assn.) - they have a "link page" that will have other suppliers as well. If the barrel is going to be required to be re-lined - check with Whitacre - they can be found on the NSSA link page as well.

Please don't consider my thoughts as any criticism as they aren't intended as that. The photos are nice but you know better than anyone else what the true condition of it is as it's in your hands. Such things as how deep any pitting is also is a consideration. If it's so deep or the rust is so bad that it has to be polished out, are the markings going to be removed? (Like buffing a fine Colt to reblue it - markings, edges, etc. are very evident that it's been "cleaned up". You could end up with a nice shooter but to a collector, it's going to be a "over cleaned" gun with little value as opposed if left in "as found" condition. On the other hand, if the bore can be cleaned up so it's decent and it's functional, internals cleaned/replaced with original or new parts to insure safe operation, maybe all it needs is a little TLC - stock washed with Murphy's Oil Soap to clean dirt off and oiled and some basic cleaning to the metal so as to not remove the patina - I would think it would be a very interesting and worthwhile project - and we all know how you like projects!

If you decide to take it on as a project, I hope you'll keep us up to date with lot's of photos. If anybody can do it, you can.

Thanks!

[Grant D]

Doc, I would start with 600 wet and dry sandpaper first with water.
150 is a little course to start with.

You can always go to 200 grit or courser if you need to but, I would start with the 600 or even finer.

[Hawg]

DOc, if it was me I'd take it to a Civil War show. Stick a hefty price tag on it and see what happens.

[Tidewater_Kid]

If you want to restore the metal, I would try an electrolysis tank for the metal. I have seen some amazing things come from those. The real issue is getting it apart to put the metal in the tank. That may present the most challenging aspect. This is what some of the guys on the Surplus Rifle Forum are using:

Electrolysis Rust Removal
You can remove rust from metal using electrolysis, and it will not harm the bluing. The main advantage to this method is it gets all the rust in hard to reach places. You will need

A plastic container that will hold the part and electrolysis solution.
Steel rod. DO NOT USE STAINLESS STEEL AS THIS WILL PRODUCE HARMFUL BYPRODUCTS.
Water
Arm & Hammer Washing Soda (not baking soda. Washing soda can be found in your local grocery store with the laundry detergent. If you cannot find washing soda, pour some baking soda--sodium bicarbonate into a pan and heat it over low-medium heat. Water and carbon-dioxide will cook-off leaving washing soda-sodium carbonate. ) Another source is swimming pool "PH Increaser." which is labeled 100% sodium carbonate. [Thanks to Bob Head for this hint]
Battery charger or other high amperage power supply.

Cautions: Wear eye protection and rubber gloves when working with this solution is very alkaline and can cause irritation. The electrolysis process breaks down water into its component parts, hydrogen and oxygen, which can be explosive. Work outside or in a very well ventilated area. Be sure your battery charger/power supply is unplugged before attaching or touching the leads.

In the container, mix 1 tablespoon of washing soda for each gallon of water to make up your solution. Be sure the washing soda is thoroughly dissolved. Place a steel rod either through the part to be cleaned (use o-rings to prevent the part from touching the rod), or numerous rods around the inside of your container. Connect these rods with wire; these will be the anode. You must be sure that the part to be cleaned is not touching the rod(s). Suspend the part in the solution with steel cable or wire so that it makes a good electrical contact with the part; this will become the cathode. Connect the negative lead (black) to the part being cleaned, connect the positive (red) lead to the rod(s), then plug in the charger. You will immediately begin to see bubbles; this is hydrogen and oxygen as the water breaks down. Allow the part to "cook" for 3-4 hours. The time is dependent on the size of the part, amount of rust, and the current of the power supply. After you remove the part, immediately clean and dry it off, then coat it with a good quality gun oil or rust preventative oil.

Good Luck

TK

[Doc Hoy]

...are very much appreciated and none will be ignored.

I am going to start slow.

And I am not going to start for at least another month.

I am hoping to find someone on the GB who will really appreciate the rifle for what it is.

[Hawg]

I have used baking soda and even salt. Make sure the bubbles are coming off the part you want cleaned. If they come off the sacrificial part then your part will dissolve.

[Doc Hoy]

...when the process is done.

I will not proceed until I am convinced that I will get there.

If it will always look like a relic someone tried to reclaim, I won't do it.

Right now it has its place on my wall. It will stay there for at least another month while the GB auctions are posted.

[OutlawJoseyWales]

Doc,
can you link to our GB posting? I can't find it
Thanks, OJW

[Noz]

Use every type of chemical cleaner you can find to remove the rust before you even think of sandpaper.
When you get to clean metal then you can make a decision whether to alter the gun forever with abrasives or not.

[skywag]

That rifle is in its best condition right now.

Why would anyone want to shoot it?

[Doc Hoy]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=342322593

[Doc Hoy]

You two are essentially voicing the concerns which are making me hesitant to start.

I have not decided to move forward with this project yet. I am not certain that I am good enough to do the project justice. This rifle deserves to be treated with care, not recklessness.

If someone were to make me a good offer for a trade, I would be on it like a wolverine on a pop tart.

[Roshi]

I don't think you should restore it. Try to sell it. If that doesn't work consider trading it. Might sell in a real auction in the right location better than dealing with the bargain seeking low ball scum that live on GB

Last resort donate to a museum and write it off as charity.

[Hawg]

Why would anyone want to shoot it?

Why wouldn't they?

[OutlawJoseyWales]

"wolverine on a pop tart" indeed. Not sure about that, but from the south it'd be more like "fast as a duck on a June bug." Probably about just as fast, but certainly not NEARLY as entertaining.

[Doc Hoy]

Both expressions paint interesting pictures, don't they.

[4V50 Gary]

"Wolverine on a pop tart" is right up there with "dead cat bounce."

[Captchee]

Just my 2 cents here probably doesn’t mean much but here goes .
Myself I have never been much for wall hangers and yes I have more then a few originals . But they are wall hangers because I chose them to be not because they are not shoot able .
As to it being a collectors item. Well it is an original sharps . But its in rather bad condition . Not to say you didn’t get a good price for it , IMO you did . Frankly probably worth 2 X that amount .
Now if you could pin point some of its history and found that history to be substantial it could be worth more .
But to be honest , without that documented and supported history all you have is an woooo aaahhh factor
Which imo is worth the cost you paid + some .
As to restoring it .
There is more to restoring it then just removing the rust . If your going to restore it then IMO you need to go all the way and do it right . Can your piece be restored , IMO yes possibly, but its very hard to tell from the photos alone .
Some of the pitting looks rather deep . But then its hard to tell as rust grows on the surface first . IE what looks real bad , can a lot of time done little damage when its actually removed . I have seen some pretty bad piece brought back to simply wonderful shape and in perfect form . Sometimes that means setting the original parts aside . Other times its rebuilding the partsso as to make the gun safe to shoot .
In your case you say the lock wont stay at full cock . As I said before , that could be something simple or it could need a new sear or tumbler . Broken trigger , IMO non issue . What is an issue IMO is whats happened to the breech block . Is it capable of being returned to the original tolerances or is it to far gone . Having it work up and down , means nothing if the rust has caused to much damage to it .

Myself though , unless your going to want to shoot it ,and expect to keep it as a wall hanger , I wouldn’t restore it or even attempt to .
Doc , I don’t mean to be rude or insulting but I don’t know any other way to say this .
So here goes .
As I said , there is more to restoring an original piece then just removing the rust . Either its restored completely or its not restored .
Frankly a sharps IMO isn’t something one should learn to restore on . You may get lucky and increase the value . But most times folks just end up destroying any real value they may have had if the would have left well enough alone .
So if your asking how , then I would consider sending it to someone who could actually restore it for you .
If not , and you try to do it yourself , then expect to lose value . Do it because you want to . Not because your expecting more from it .

Now as to your asking price , good on you . Ask what its worth to you . don’t accept less

[Doc Hoy]

I am grateful for your advice and at least for this moment I am taking all of it.

I bought it knowing it was worth more than I paid for it but how much more, was beyond me.

It is on the GB for 625.00 and I am increasing the price by 25.00 every time it does not sell. I know that sounds odd, but it is an indication that I am not all that interested in selling it. On the other hand, if it does go, I want it to go to someone who really wants it and I think my pricing strategy increases the likelyhood that will happen. The explanation is in the ad description.

If it doesn't sell by the time it gets to 700.00, I will figure it is actually worth somewhere around 400.00 to 500.00 and it is worth more than that to me. I have been offered 5 plus shipping and declined to take it and I am not sorry about that decision.

I agree with others on the forum that GB doesn't seem to attract a large number of discriminating collectors.

I am not saying that because no one wants to pay me my inflated price for my Sharps. I am saying that because it happens all to often that folks pay inflated prices for other stuff on the board. I guess it only takes one.

I also agree with you that an original Sharps is not what you would consider a restoration training aid. I have plenty of rusty steel laying around the shop that I could learn on.

I looked on the internet for drawings of an 1863 that had dimensions but did not find any. The breach block appears in quite good condition, but I don't know that I much care since I would not likely shoot the rifle even if I did restore it to shootability.

I will carry it to a couple gun shows to see if there is any interest. I may look up a re-enactment group as was previously suggested. Restoration will likely be a last resort. The guy I bought it from has information on the previous owner and I may get a little history there.

For right now, it is hanging on my office wall, where it will probably stay for some time.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Just a thought here Doc. Have you got one of them Cracker Barrel Restaurants in you local? I've head here and there sometimes their managers buy antique things for their reastruant walls. You find the right manager Doc. You just may strike a deal to your liking.

S/S

[Doc Hoy]

The rifle sold on GB on Thursday.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Sold. Well then that's that. As they say.

[Doc Hoy]

I thought I was going to have to replace my laptop. It died while I was away this week.

But now I am not so certain.

I think this definitely puts me in the market for a used Sharps 1874 carbine in .45-70, or Remington Rolling Block in .45-70.

If y'all want to review your arsenals and see if you have anything that is for sale, I am interested. I'll post to the WTB/WTS forum too.