Tactics for Home Defense: OC v. CC (NOT Politics...) from Trigger Time TV

Rob Pincus · July 10, 2012, 01:53 PM

Here is my segment from Trigger Time's 2nd Episode... including timed presentation demos... discussing OC v CC for Home Defense:

Trigger Time Episode Two, Segment 1

Thoughts?

-RJP

Glenn E. Meyer · July 11, 2012, 12:25 PM

Interesting piece, Rob.

Given what people say here about home carry, might it be fun to add or try timing from pocket carry. I see folks who mention that they don't wear a full size gun and holster but drop a J frame, 380 or mini 9mm in their pocket.

Also, where I am a good deal of time - on the couch or at the computer! That IWB position didn't look couch friendly and a touch of a scary draw if one was sitting.

The point about diversion of gaze was well taken. While the child is long gone, having the kid plaster themselves to your leg in the emergency might slow down a draw. I was thinking of that in one of those endless unchambered carry debates where the proponent of such demonstrated his skill on the square range. I don't think you could be so nimble with the 5 year old or significant other grabbing you.

Thanks for the post.

Nanuk · July 11, 2012, 07:43 PM

I carry either my Glock 27 or my 640 Pro around the house, always concealed. I live in a semi rural area on a major US highway.

bikerbill · July 14, 2012, 01:05 PM

Thanks for sharing that clip, Rob ... raised points I've never thought of ... I normally have an NAA Pug in my stongside pocket if I'm wearing shorts at home ... If I'm in sweatpants or shorts without pockets, I move a larger revolver around with me, so it's sitting next to the desk as I type right now, or next to my side of the sofa if I'm reading or watching TV ... I've never actually considered that speed of draw would be an issue at home, where the access points are mostly visible to me and seemingly would take long enough to breech for me to obtain either my pocket gun or the traveling revolver and prepare to defend myself ... I'm retired and at home during the day while my wife is at work; at night I pocket carry and, when we go to bed, there's a 1911 on the nightstand within reach ... gotta chew on this ...

kraigwy · July 14, 2012, 08:42 PM

Rob, you mirrored my thoughts on open v. concealed carry (public or home).

No I'm not saying Open Carry should be banned. But I don't want to make people feel nervous seeing my gun.

I also liked the way you pointed out, the ideal of a bandit seeing a subject open carrying vs. one carrying concealed.

I like the ideal of people, bandits or otherwise, looking at me and thinking I'm an harmless old man.

Quote:

might it be fun to add or try timing from pocket carry

I do have an old recliner on my pistol range similar to the chair I set in while playing on the lap top or watching TV. I do shoot from it every now and then just for kicks. Facing the target (front door) and shooting off to my left (back door).

If I can kick the dogs out of it I'll dig out the shot time and see how long it takes to get a shot off.

Anyway, Good Video. I think open carry deprives us of surprise on our part.

1911Alaska · July 14, 2012, 09:16 PM

I open carry but I always wear a long big coat so it is not noticeable. And I never take it off if I am in public.

Reason being is it is more comfortable for me and all my pants are made to fit me. When I bought them I never considered about carrying a gun IWB. I would rather conceal carry but right now open carrying with a coat over is my best option. Its more comfortable and the good IWB are a little on the spendy side until I buy some new pants that are a little loose.

**JohnKSa** · July 14, 2012, 10:01 PM

If I carry at home, I generally OC in an OWB at about 4-4:30. If someone comes to visit for any length of time, I untuck my shirt and cover the pistol, but I've found that for short encounters it's very simple to "conceal" by simply blading slightly away from the person.

Even in the video, it's pretty hard to see your gun in the 4-4:30 position when you're facing the camera making no attempt to use your body to shield the pistol. If you were actually trying to keep it concealed it would be very easy to do so without seeming awkward.

I do agree that if I were carrying IWB appendix at home, I'd probably be more inclined to conceal with a cover garment than with my current setup because you can't easily conceal with body positioning when employing that carry location.

IWB appendix doesn't work well for me and IWB in general restricts what I can carry and is less comfortable than OWB. I put up with it in public where "body positioning concealment" is totally impractical and where I'm required to conceal by law. But at home, when I carry, I generally carry a full-sized gun I'm more comfortable shooting and I go for OWB which is also more comfortable. Either way, I carry in the same position--4-4:30 to keep the gun positioning consistent.

...which brings up another point. I wonder if the video really does an apples to apples comparison. I say that because you point out that the IWB appendix position is your normal carry location. I presume that for that reason, you've practiced drawing from that position a lot. I know that if I were to compare drawing from my normal carry position to drawing from a carry position I don't usually use, I suspect that the results would tend to favor the position I normally use.

g.willikers · July 16, 2012, 07:03 AM

Your comparison, between open or concealed carry, clearly demonstrates how little difference there is in the time to draw, between the two.
And the more important tactical advantage of concealed carry.
Very convincing and reenforces the choice for concealed carry.

garryc · July 16, 2012, 07:57 AM

I often carry my P-64 in my right pocket at home. It's in a small IWB tuckable holster and you can see it with my shirt tucked. If I leave my property I simply transfer it to IWB.

Here's the thing. If someone stops by my house they will see the butt of that gun sticking out of my pocket. I really don't care, if it makes them nervous that is their problem. Maybe by the time they leave they will realize that the gun made no difference in anything. Maybe they will have a little less of that media induced phobia about firearms and owners.

Then again, Ohio is an open carry state. What has happened with people that open carry is that the cops say you induced panic. That would tend to make the gun owner responsible for someone else having a phobia.

Mr. James · July 17, 2012, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Your comparison, between open or concealed carry, clearly demonstrates how little difference there is in the time to draw, between the two.
And the more important tactical advantage of concealed carry.
Very convincing and reenforces the choice for concealed carry.

Rubbish. For crying out loud, we're talking about a forced entry in your own home. You have no "tactical advantage whatsoever. You're already behind the curve. Mr. Pincus speaks with far more authority on this subject than I ever will, but I respectfully disagree on this very fine point. As the post immediately preceding yours suggests, if you blade your body even slightly, the gun is virtually invisible.

I also agree with JohnKSa that my first impression is this isn't, by any means, an apples-to-apples comparison.

**JohnKSa** · July 19, 2012, 08:20 PM

Quote:

For crying out loud, we're talking about a forced entry in your own home. You have no "tactical advantage whatsoever.

I'd say it depends. I've read of several situations where a person or persons forced entry to a home and essentially took everyone hostage and yet at some point in the situation one of the hostages was able to access a gun and turn the tables.

Admittedly, most often the persons were accessing guns hidden in the house, not ones that were being carried, but the fact remans that at some point in the encounter the opportunity may arise to access a hidden gun and make good use of it.

If the gun isn't hidden, that opportunity is unlikely to present itself as the attackers wouldn't simply allow it to remain accessible to the occupants of the house.

I do agree that an openly carried gun doesn't provide the same flexibility for the defender to choose a time. Once it's obvious that the gun is going to be discovered the defender must, at that point, choose to act or give up the gun.

If one makes the assumption that a defender will definitely freeze when the attack takes place and fail to respond immediately, then I could see why they would recommend concealment.

seeker_two · July 20, 2012, 07:53 AM

Thanks for covering this topic, Rob. I have a few things to consider....

1. With either holster, you still effectively have a concealed weapon....your house is concealing it.

2. Referring to some of your prior advice, I would assume that you have hardened your home to prevent/delay such a forced entry. If so, the home invaders are slowed enough for you to draw, retreat to a safe room, etc. That makes the type of carry moot.

3. If the invaders are in your home and are advancing on you, you probably won't have time to draw from either type of holster. This is when your empty-hand techniques come into play. Also, if you can fend them off long enough to draw, that 0.15 seconds may come in handy, esp. from a holster you can blade away from the threat.

4. You did your experiment from a standing position, but you talked about being seated on the couch watching TV. Would you consider repeating the test using the seated position on a couch or recliner?

Thanks for the thought exercise.

sigcurious · July 20, 2012, 11:04 AM

Definitely some interesting things to consider. I will be watching more of the segments as time allows.

WV_gunner · July 24, 2012, 10:20 AM

In this state, you can't have a loaded gun in the car without a conceal carry license, and only handguns can be loaded in a vehicle. So if you don't have a license and you open carry, you're gonna have to load and unload your gun alot. I'm willing to bet if you're standing outside of a store loading a gun the cops will be called. It's not illegal, but that doesn't matter. So, might as well get a conceal carry license.

I really think the no loaded gun in a vehicle is a law to cut down on road hunters and spot lighters. Hard to catch someone spot lighting if everyone has a loaded .22 rifle in the back seat instead of just the guy shooting at a field full of deer.

July 10, 2012, 01:53 PM	#1
Rob Pincus Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Hotels Posts: 3,668	Tactics for Home Defense: OC v. CC (NOT Politics...) from Trigger Time TV Here is my segment from Trigger Time's 2nd Episode... including timed presentation demos... discussing OC v CC for Home Defense: Trigger Time Episode Two, Segment 1 Thoughts? -RJP __________________ I.C.E. Training Company. LinkedIn Profile for Rob Pincus

July 11, 2012, 12:25 PM	#2
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Interesting piece, Rob. Given what people say here about home carry, might it be fun to add or try timing from pocket carry. I see folks who mention that they don't wear a full size gun and holster but drop a J frame, 380 or mini 9mm in their pocket. Also, where I am a good deal of time - on the couch or at the computer! That IWB position didn't look couch friendly and a touch of a scary draw if one was sitting. The point about diversion of gaze was well taken. While the child is long gone, having the kid plaster themselves to your leg in the emergency might slow down a draw. I was thinking of that in one of those endless unchambered carry debates where the proponent of such demonstrated his skill on the square range. I don't think you could be so nimble with the 5 year old or significant other grabbing you. Thanks for the post. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 11, 2012, 07:43 PM	#3
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I carry either my Glock 27 or my 640 Pro around the house, always concealed. I live in a semi rural area on a major US highway. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

July 14, 2012, 01:05 PM	#4
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,425	Thanks for sharing that clip, Rob ... raised points I've never thought of ... I normally have an NAA Pug in my stongside pocket if I'm wearing shorts at home ... If I'm in sweatpants or shorts without pockets, I move a larger revolver around with me, so it's sitting next to the desk as I type right now, or next to my side of the sofa if I'm reading or watching TV ... I've never actually considered that speed of draw would be an issue at home, where the access points are mostly visible to me and seemingly would take long enough to breech for me to obtain either my pocket gun or the traveling revolver and prepare to defend myself ... I'm retired and at home during the day while my wife is at work; at night I pocket carry and, when we go to bed, there's a 1911 on the nightstand within reach ... gotta chew on this ... __________________ "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus

July 14, 2012, 10:01 PM	#7
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,972	If I carry at home, I generally OC in an OWB at about 4-4:30. If someone comes to visit for any length of time, I untuck my shirt and cover the pistol, but I've found that for short encounters it's very simple to "conceal" by simply blading slightly away from the person. Even in the video, it's pretty hard to see your gun in the 4-4:30 position when you're facing the camera making no attempt to use your body to shield the pistol. If you were actually trying to keep it concealed it would be very easy to do so without seeming awkward. I do agree that if I were carrying IWB appendix at home, I'd probably be more inclined to conceal with a cover garment than with my current setup because you can't easily conceal with body positioning when employing that carry location. IWB appendix doesn't work well for me and IWB in general restricts what I can carry and is less comfortable than OWB. I put up with it in public where "body positioning concealment" is totally impractical and where I'm required to conceal by law. But at home, when I carry, I generally carry a full-sized gun I'm more comfortable shooting and I go for OWB which is also more comfortable. Either way, I carry in the same position--4-4:30 to keep the gun positioning consistent. ...which brings up another point. I wonder if the video really does an apples to apples comparison. I say that because you point out that the IWB appendix position is your normal carry location. I presume that for that reason, you've practiced drawing from that position a lot. I know that if I were to compare drawing from my normal carry position to drawing from a carry position I don't usually use, I suspect that the results would tend to favor the position I normally use. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

July 14, 2012, 09:16 PM	#6
1911Alaska Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Posts: 139	I open carry but I always wear a long big coat so it is not noticeable. And I never take it off if I am in public. Reason being is it is more comfortable for me and all my pants are made to fit me. When I bought them I never considered about carrying a gun IWB. I would rather conceal carry but right now open carrying with a coat over is my best option. Its more comfortable and the good IWB are a little on the spendy side until I buy some new pants that are a little loose.

July 16, 2012, 07:03 AM	#8
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Your comparison, between open or concealed carry, clearly demonstrates how little difference there is in the time to draw, between the two. And the more important tactical advantage of concealed carry. Very convincing and reenforces the choice for concealed carry. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 16, 2012, 07:57 AM	#9
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	I often carry my P-64 in my right pocket at home. It's in a small IWB tuckable holster and you can see it with my shirt tucked. If I leave my property I simply transfer it to IWB. Here's the thing. If someone stops by my house they will see the butt of that gun sticking out of my pocket. I really don't care, if it makes them nervous that is their problem. Maybe by the time they leave they will realize that the gun made no difference in anything. Maybe they will have a little less of that media induced phobia about firearms and owners. Then again, Ohio is an open carry state. What has happened with people that open carry is that the cops say you induced panic. That would tend to make the gun owner responsible for someone else having a phobia.

July 20, 2012, 07:53 AM	#12
seeker_two Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2002 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Lone Star State (TX) Posts: 2,169	Thanks for covering this topic, Rob. I have a few things to consider.... 1. With either holster, you still effectively have a concealed weapon....your house is concealing it. 2. Referring to some of your prior advice, I would assume that you have hardened your home to prevent/delay such a forced entry. If so, the home invaders are slowed enough for you to draw, retreat to a safe room, etc. That makes the type of carry moot. 3. If the invaders are in your home and are advancing on you, you probably won't have time to draw from either type of holster. This is when your empty-hand techniques come into play. Also, if you can fend them off long enough to draw, that 0.15 seconds may come in handy, esp. from a holster you can blade away from the threat. 4. You did your experiment from a standing position, but you talked about being seated on the couch watching TV. Would you consider repeating the test using the seated position on a couch or recliner? Thanks for the thought exercise. __________________ Proud member of Gun Culture 2.0......

July 20, 2012, 11:04 AM	#13
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	Definitely some interesting things to consider. I will be watching more of the segments as time allows.

July 24, 2012, 10:20 AM	#14
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	In this state, you can't have a loaded gun in the car without a conceal carry license, and only handguns can be loaded in a vehicle. So if you don't have a license and you open carry, you're gonna have to load and unload your gun alot. I'm willing to bet if you're standing outside of a store loading a gun the cops will be called. It's not illegal, but that doesn't matter. So, might as well get a conceal carry license. I really think the no loaded gun in a vehicle is a law to cut down on road hunters and spot lighters. Hard to catch someone spot lighting if everyone has a loaded .22 rifle in the back seat instead of just the guy shooting at a field full of deer.