How to defeat recoil / jumpiness? - Page 2

RochPersDef · December 2, 2005, 07:02 PM

Here's the deal. Everyone flinches to a certain extent. It's how we control the startle reflex is what makes us better shooters than the others.

When I get a student that has a pronounced flinch, here's what I do:
Grip. The hand that grips the gun should make up about 30% of the total grip. If you grip too tightly, your triggerfinger will not function smoothly. Your support hand should make up the rest. Grip the gun with just enough force to keep it there. The other hand's palmheel should lock into the curve formed by your gun hand's palmheel. Wrap your support hand's fingers around the front and then squeeze to tighten. You should feel both hands tighten up around the gun.
Next, Triggerfinger. make a game out of the triggerpull. Put slight pressure on the trigger and try not to let it go off. Keep applying more and more pressure all the while trying not to let it go off. (Eventually, it will go off) Don't rush the triggerpull. If you rush it, you'll jerk it.
Follow through. Allow the gun to recoil. Do not try to make it come back down on target. It will do it all on it's own. After a while, you will find you are managing the recoil better and better.

Dry fire. practice dry. ( no ammo in the gun, or in the room) Press the trigger to the rear and try to not let the front sight bobble. To test yourself, out a dime on the front sight. Pull the trigger and do not let the dime fall off. Yes, it can be done.

Above all, practice correctly. Do not just pound away and hope it gets better. Do not continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. (That's the definition of insanity)

Good luck

Dave

RochPersDef · December 2, 2005, 07:02 PM

Here's the deal. Everyone flinches to a certain extent. It's how we control the startle reflex is what makes us better shooters than the others.

When I get a student that has a pronounced flinch, here's what I do:
Grip. The hand that grips the gun should make up about 30% of the total grip. If you grip too tightly, your triggerfinger will not function smoothly. Your support hand should make up the rest. Grip the gun with just enough force to keep it there. The other hand's palmheel should lock into the curve formed by your gun hand's palmheel. Wrap your support hand's fingers around the front and then squeeze to tighten. You should feel both hands tighten up around the gun.
Next, Triggerfinger. make a game out of the triggerpull. Put slight pressure on the trigger and try not to let it go off. Keep applying more and more pressure all the while trying not to let it go off. (Eventually, it will go off) Don't rush the triggerpull. If you rush it, you'll jerk it.
Follow through. Allow the gun to recoil. Do not try to make it come back down on target. It will do it all on it's own. After a while, you will find you are managing the recoil better and better.

Dry fire. practice dry. ( no ammo in the gun, or in the room) Press the trigger to the rear and try to not let the front sight bobble. To test yourself, out a dime on the front sight. Pull the trigger and do not let the dime fall off. Yes, it can be done.

Above all, practice correctly. Do not just pound away and hope it gets better. Do not continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. (That's the definition of insanity)

Good luck

Dave

stevewiz · December 4, 2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

You can have a friend load your mag while youre not looking... have them actually load sometimes and leave the chamber empty at other times, randomly... pulling the trigger on an (unknown to you) empty gun is the best way to figure out exactly how much you're flinching...

this is insane and a cardinal sin. anyone handling a gun must know themselves whether or not it is loaded.

just stay away from me on or off the range. you freak me out. :barf:

RochPersDef · December 4, 2005, 09:50 PM

Steve: I think he was trying to help his buddy figure out how to beat his flinch. That actually is a technique that was used for a long time. What I would suggest as a better option is to get some dummy rounds or snap caps and put them in a mag along with the ammo. This will give you great practice with the 'dud' effect as well as your basic malfunction drill.

Oct_97 · December 5, 2005, 08:30 AM

Posture plays a huge roll on controlling recoil. Most inexperienced shooters stand straight up with one foot way behind the other and their backs arched to the rear, thus amplifying the felt recoil. Spread your feet about shoulder width, drop your strong side (Left or right hand) foot back a couple of inches, and bend foward at the waist. Firmly grip the gun with the strong hand pushing foward and the weak hand pulling rearward, arms extended with a slight break at the elbows, and both elbows at the same level. (LOL, Sounds like getting golf instructions.) This posture allows the arms and upper body to absorbe the recoil, thus diminishing the felt recoil. Working with a .22 will help trigger control, concentrate on watching the front sight until after the shot to ensure that you are not moving the gun while squeezing the trigger. Get some snap caps, dry fire, practice, be safe, and have fun.

almark · December 5, 2005, 05:12 PM

Steve, what part of my advice is unsafe? If they're treating a gun as if it's always loaded, as they should, then it's certainly no less safe for it to be unloaded. If they're treating it as if it's unloaded then the advice is pointless anyway, and they should not have a gun in their hands period.

Four Rules:

#1 Treat every gun as if it's loaded always.
My advice doesn't cause the user to violate this rule.

#2 Never point the muzzle at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy.
Again, no rule violation caused by my advice.

#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire.
No rule violation.

#4 Be absolutely sure of your target and what is behind it.
Again, no rule violation.

If someone acts like an idiot while using my advice, then they would be doing the stupid thing even without my advice.

Do you take issue with me having a friend load the magazine? I say that if your friends can't be trusted to handle your firearms and shoot with you then you don't need to be friends with them anyway.

Tell me what part of my advice is so unsafe? I don't want to be giving it if it is.

Oct_97 · December 5, 2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:
You can have a friend load your mag while youre not looking... have them actually load sometimes and leave the chamber empty at other times, randomly... pulling the trigger on an (unknown to you) empty gun is the best way to figure out exactly how much you're flinching...
_________________________________________________________________

this is insane and a cardinal sin. anyone handling a gun must know themselves whether or not it is loaded.

just stay away from me on or off the range. you freak me out.
_________________________________________________________________

A friend is a 35 year veteran LEO and one of the Chief Instructors for a large State Agency. I asked him about this, he told me it is a common practice used by instructors all the time.

BTW, How do you do that Quote thing?

Thanks,

John

ozzy1038 · December 5, 2005, 05:34 PM

It is common practice in advanced personal protection classes taught here in Polk county by LEO's to do as I suggested earlier and throw a snap cap or two in the mag with live ammo. What almark suggested is also right and is in no way unsafe.

Firepower_426 · December 6, 2005, 04:31 PM

Thanks everybody!

GoSlash27 · April 16, 2006, 04:59 PM

I'm just bumping this back up since anticipation problems seem to be a very common question. OTOH, maybe this thread should be over in the live fire forum?

I have a few methods that seem to work pretty well in taming anticipation.
#1) If at all possible try to work it out with a revolver instead of an auto. load only one live round. This helps reinforce the fact that the flip won't spoil your shot as well as making you conscious of your subconscious tendency.
#2) Exposure to *more* flip instead of less. Fire a few strings weak-hand only. This will reinforce confidence when firing with both hands. Borrow something bigger than your normal piece. Same effect.
#3) Most people squeeze a trigger and think "bang". That is the one thing you should not be thinking. Think "click". Think "bullseye". Think "squeeze". Focus on anything except "bang". If you catch yourself thinking "bang" before a shot goes, immediately hold and force yourself to think "squeeze" before proceeding.
#4) This worked pretty well for a friend of mine: Since anticipation is essentially the shooter subconsciously trying to compensate for flip, consciously squeeze the handle more firmly in the attempt to control it instead of altering aim.
#5) Pull the trigger right up to the edge of firing and hold it there. Just hold it while concentrating on sight picture. See how close you can get to the trigger break while holding a steady picture.

These have worked pretty well in my experience and I'm sure you folks have a bunch more.

Hal8000 · April 16, 2006, 06:28 PM

Oct_97 has the right idea for recoil:

Quote:

Posture plays a huge roll on controlling recoil. Most inexperienced shooters stand straight up with one foot way behind the other and their backs arched to the rear, thus amplifying the felt recoil. Spread your feet about shoulder width, drop your strong side (Left or right hand) foot back a couple of inches, and bend foward at the waist. Firmly grip the gun with the strong hand pushing foward and the weak hand pulling rearward, arms extended with a slight break at the elbows, and both elbows at the same level. (LOL, Sounds like getting golf instructions.) This posture allows the arms and upper body to absorbe the recoil, thus diminishing the felt recoil.

In simple terms, lean your entire body into the shot. /------>] , ( you being the "/".)

In learning to manage my flinch (anticipation, trigger jerk), I used a revolver. While shooting leave one or more chambers empty every loading and shoot normally. After you jerk the gun a few times on a dry "click", the trigger jerk is very obvious and you'll learn to squeeze, squeeze, squeeze the trigger...

(Notice I said "manage my flinch", You never really fully conquer it...)

December 2, 2005, 07:02 PM	#26
RochPersDef Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Western NY Posts: 24	Here's the deal. Everyone flinches to a certain extent. It's how we control the startle reflex is what makes us better shooters than the others. When I get a student that has a pronounced flinch, here's what I do: Grip. The hand that grips the gun should make up about 30% of the total grip. If you grip too tightly, your triggerfinger will not function smoothly. Your support hand should make up the rest. Grip the gun with just enough force to keep it there. The other hand's palmheel should lock into the curve formed by your gun hand's palmheel. Wrap your support hand's fingers around the front and then squeeze to tighten. You should feel both hands tighten up around the gun. Next, Triggerfinger. make a game out of the triggerpull. Put slight pressure on the trigger and try not to let it go off. Keep applying more and more pressure all the while trying not to let it go off. (Eventually, it will go off) Don't rush the triggerpull. If you rush it, you'll jerk it. Follow through. Allow the gun to recoil. Do not try to make it come back down on target. It will do it all on it's own. After a while, you will find you are managing the recoil better and better. Dry fire. practice dry. ( no ammo in the gun, or in the room) Press the trigger to the rear and try to not let the front sight bobble. To test yourself, out a dime on the front sight. Pull the trigger and do not let the dime fall off. Yes, it can be done. Above all, practice correctly. Do not just pound away and hope it gets better. Do not continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. (That's the definition of insanity) Good luck Dave __________________ Rochester Personal Defense Rochester, NY www.safeinrochester.com

December 2, 2005, 07:02 PM	#27
RochPersDef Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Western NY Posts: 24	Here's the deal. Everyone flinches to a certain extent. It's how we control the startle reflex is what makes us better shooters than the others. When I get a student that has a pronounced flinch, here's what I do: Grip. The hand that grips the gun should make up about 30% of the total grip. If you grip too tightly, your triggerfinger will not function smoothly. Your support hand should make up the rest. Grip the gun with just enough force to keep it there. The other hand's palmheel should lock into the curve formed by your gun hand's palmheel. Wrap your support hand's fingers around the front and then squeeze to tighten. You should feel both hands tighten up around the gun. Next, Triggerfinger. make a game out of the triggerpull. Put slight pressure on the trigger and try not to let it go off. Keep applying more and more pressure all the while trying not to let it go off. (Eventually, it will go off) Don't rush the triggerpull. If you rush it, you'll jerk it. Follow through. Allow the gun to recoil. Do not try to make it come back down on target. It will do it all on it's own. After a while, you will find you are managing the recoil better and better. Dry fire. practice dry. ( no ammo in the gun, or in the room) Press the trigger to the rear and try to not let the front sight bobble. To test yourself, out a dime on the front sight. Pull the trigger and do not let the dime fall off. Yes, it can be done. Above all, practice correctly. Do not just pound away and hope it gets better. Do not continue to do the same thing expecting a different result. (That's the definition of insanity) Good luck Dave __________________ Rochester Personal Defense Rochester, NY www.safeinrochester.com

December 4, 2005, 09:50 PM	#29
RochPersDef Member Join Date: November 27, 2005 Location: Western NY Posts: 24	Steve: I think he was trying to help his buddy figure out how to beat his flinch. That actually is a technique that was used for a long time. What I would suggest as a better option is to get some dummy rounds or snap caps and put them in a mag along with the ammo. This will give you great practice with the 'dud' effect as well as your basic malfunction drill. __________________ Rochester Personal Defense Rochester, NY www.safeinrochester.com

December 5, 2005, 05:12 PM	#31
almark Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2005 Location: TX Posts: 359	Steve, what part of my advice is unsafe? If they're treating a gun as if it's always loaded, as they should, then it's certainly no less safe for it to be unloaded. If they're treating it as if it's unloaded then the advice is pointless anyway, and they should not have a gun in their hands period. Four Rules: #1 Treat every gun as if it's loaded always. My advice doesn't cause the user to violate this rule. #2 Never point the muzzle at anything you don't intend to kill or destroy. Again, no rule violation caused by my advice. #3 Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. No rule violation. #4 Be absolutely sure of your target and what is behind it. Again, no rule violation. If someone acts like an idiot while using my advice, then they would be doing the stupid thing even without my advice. Do you take issue with me having a friend load the magazine? I say that if your friends can't be trusted to handle your firearms and shoot with you then you don't need to be friends with them anyway. Tell me what part of my advice is so unsafe? I don't want to be giving it if it is. __________________ "The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts working the moment you get up in the morning and does not stop until you get into the office." -Robert Frost

December 5, 2005, 05:34 PM	#33
ozzy1038 Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2005 Posts: 110	It is common practice in advanced personal protection classes taught here in Polk county by LEO's to do as I suggested earlier and throw a snap cap or two in the mag with live ammo. What almark suggested is also right and is in no way unsafe. __________________ Lead Thrower

December 5, 2005, 08:30 AM	#30
Oct_97 Member Join Date: June 17, 2004 Posts: 29	Posture plays a huge roll on controlling recoil. Most inexperienced shooters stand straight up with one foot way behind the other and their backs arched to the rear, thus amplifying the felt recoil. Spread your feet about shoulder width, drop your strong side (Left or right hand) foot back a couple of inches, and bend foward at the waist. Firmly grip the gun with the strong hand pushing foward and the weak hand pulling rearward, arms extended with a slight break at the elbows, and both elbows at the same level. (LOL, Sounds like getting golf instructions.) This posture allows the arms and upper body to absorbe the recoil, thus diminishing the felt recoil. Working with a .22 will help trigger control, concentrate on watching the front sight until after the shot to ensure that you are not moving the gun while squeezing the trigger. Get some snap caps, dry fire, practice, be safe, and have fun.

December 5, 2005, 05:27 PM	#32
Oct_97 Member Join Date: June 17, 2004 Posts: 29	Quote: You can have a friend load your mag while youre not looking... have them actually load sometimes and leave the chamber empty at other times, randomly... pulling the trigger on an (unknown to you) empty gun is the best way to figure out exactly how much you're flinching... _________________________________________________________________ this is insane and a cardinal sin. anyone handling a gun must know themselves whether or not it is loaded. just stay away from me on or off the range. you freak me out. _________________________________________________________________ A friend is a 35 year veteran LEO and one of the Chief Instructors for a large State Agency. I asked him about this, he told me it is a common practice used by instructors all the time. BTW, How do you do that Quote thing? Thanks, John

December 6, 2005, 04:31 PM	#34
Firepower_426 Member Join Date: October 17, 2005 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 77	Thanks everybody! __________________ // Best Regards - T.W.L.

April 16, 2006, 04:59 PM	#35
GoSlash27 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Iowa Posts: 3,118	Admin, could we sticky this? I'm just bumping this back up since anticipation problems seem to be a very common question. OTOH, maybe this thread should be over in the live fire forum? I have a few methods that seem to work pretty well in taming anticipation. #1) If at all possible try to work it out with a revolver instead of an auto. load only one live round. This helps reinforce the fact that the flip won't spoil your shot as well as making you conscious of your subconscious tendency. #2) Exposure to more flip instead of less. Fire a few strings weak-hand only. This will reinforce confidence when firing with both hands. Borrow something bigger than your normal piece. Same effect. #3) Most people squeeze a trigger and think "bang". That is the one thing you should not be thinking. Think "click". Think "bullseye". Think "squeeze". Focus on anything except "bang". If you catch yourself thinking "bang" before a shot goes, immediately hold and force yourself to think "squeeze" before proceeding. #4) This worked pretty well for a friend of mine: Since anticipation is essentially the shooter subconsciously trying to compensate for flip, consciously squeeze the handle more firmly in the attempt to control it instead of altering aim. #5) Pull the trigger right up to the edge of firing and hold it there. Just hold it while concentrating on sight picture. See how close you can get to the trigger break while holding a steady picture. These have worked pretty well in my experience and I'm sure you folks have a bunch more. __________________ Bill of Rights Must be 18. Void where prohibited. Not available in all states. Some restrictions apply. Last edited by GoSlash27; April 16, 2006 at 05:58 PM.